Teaching textbooks algebra not meeting CA standards (m)

[momto4kings]

My newly 11 ds (6th grade) is halfway through TT Algebra 1. We decided to go with a charter school this year and the teacher decided to check if we can count it as a high school credit. This is her answer:

 

"The teaching textbooks don't meet the state standards and they tend to be about a year behind other books, so an Algebra book would count as a Pre-algebra class. When he gets to the next book a few supplements would need to be made to the text to meet all of the standards and then it would count towards the Algebra requirements."

 

I don't really care that he is doing a math course that doesn't meet CA standards, but I am wondering if he would be prepared well for the ACT and SAT if he were to continue with TT. Incidentally, Saxon Math does not meet CA standards as well, but Saxon has been known to prepare students for the ACT and SAT.

 

What are your thoughts? I do have Saxon Algebra 1 with the DVD Teacher, so I could have him start that, but I am SO tired of switching around.

 

Any input will be greatly appreciated!

Edited September 5, 2009 by momto4kings

[Whereneverever]

Did they mention what would meet the standards? I'd consider switching to that.

[Moni]

http://www.khanacademy.org/

 

Scroll down

There is "CA Algebra standards"

 

Just fyi for your Teacher in case you actually want credit for CA standards.

 

:seeya:

[dangermom]

Incidentally, Saxon Math does not meet CA standards as well, but Saxon has been known to prepare students for the ACT and SAT.

 

 

Do you have some information you could point me to on that? Considering that Everyday Math meets CA standards (our local school district just committed to it, convincing me never to put my kids into PS until at least 9th grade), I'm surprised that Saxon does not. Perhaps CA standards are just not what I want to pay attention to...

[momto4kings]

http://www.ieminc.org/handbook/curriculum/gencurres/curric/MA_6-12/ma_trad_6-12.dwt

Edited September 5, 2009 by momto4kings

[dangermom]

Thanks. Huh. Weird.

[Mom0012]

I wonder why it is that Teaching Textbooks decided to make all their materials about a year behind? I've looked at their samples and have found the same thing. It seems they've really hurt themselves by doing this because it really makes the program seem like it's too easy when maybe it would be just fine if they would label the levels correctly.

 

Lisa

[justamouse]

*bangs head forcefully*

 

This math *&^%. I cannot STAND it.

[calandalsmom]

From what I have seen on other boards like SL, TT has amply prepared students for the testing.

[Loupelou]

The links provided don't say that they don't "meet" California standards, it states that they don't align well. It also states that they are great programs. It doesn't seem to mean that doing them is detrimental to your child's education at all. If your child is required to take certain tests maybe you need to look at the scope & sequence, figure out if anything is missing and study it. I agree that as far as the teacher goes I would give her the information you have received here. MUS also doesn't align with California requirements and plenty of kids use the program and excel. I do not use any of these programs, just trying to give my unbiased opinion!:001_smile:

[Aletheia Academy]

Just remember that CA state standards are completely arbitrary, like the standards of any other state. There is no reason to capitulate to those standards unless you plan on putting your kids in ps at some point. Then, I would just fill in whatever is missing prior to enrolling.

 

It is more important that the curriculum you choose align with your dc's educational goals (that you help establish). If you're hoping to enroll in a 4-yr college straight from high school, then, yes, preparing for the SAT and ACT is more important. It would also be good to take a few classes at a community college, whether or not those credits are counted for college.

 

What would happen if a lot of folks would come to the conclusion that higher education is a huge, astronomically expensive racket? I wonder...We have this discussion all the time.

 

A college degree does seem to be a cultural barrier to entry. We want to provide a solid education at home, and we want our dc to have options when their home education is over.

 

Let's not screw ourselves into the floor!

[TXMary2]

My oldest ds used TT and passed the Compass test with flying colors. Unlike the students coming out of the public schools, having met the standards, my ds didn't need the remedial classes that the ps students do. There were 3 pages of remedial math classes in our community college course schedule. Guess what, those classes aren't for the thousands of homeschoolers flooding the community college campuses. Sorry if I sound snarky, I just get irritated with the cut downs on homeschool curriculums when clearly we are able to meet standards the ps cannot.

[momto4kings]

Like I said, I don't care about CA standards. Even the ps can't meet all of their standards. My worry is whether my son would be prepared well for the SAT/ACT if we continue to use TT, which we both like. I guess I'm looking for reassurance, or permission to go on with TT, silly, I know. TT is so new that it doesn't have a track record, or does it?

[Aletheia Academy]

Quote: Even the ps can't meet all of their standards (Sorry-I am so techno-challenged can never make the quote function work!)

 

That's right, Sister! :D

 

Can you compare the scope and sequence from TT to the information provided by ACT and SAT? Did you post on the high school board about this? I bet some of those ladies would be really helpful.

[8filltheheart]

 

I don't really care that he is doing a math course that doesn't meet CA standards, but I am wondering if he would be prepared well for the ACT and SAT if he were to continue with TT. Incidentally, Saxon Math does not meet CA standards as well, but Saxon has been known to prepare students for the ACT and SAT.

 

 

 

Honestly, I would not base my choice for high school math texts based on whether or not they prepare the student for the ACT/SAT unless your goal is to teach to the test. A good SAT or ACT prep book would be a better choice for that goal and instead make your math selection based on what you want to get out of a math program. Do you want a math program that prepares a student for engineering/science applications or do you want a math program that strictly covers basic high school math skills?

 

FWIW......the ACT and SAT do not focus that much on math skills beyond alg 2. So, students' scores do not necessarily reflect how advanced they are in math as much as showing how to take the test. For example, the ACT only has 60 math questions. 24 of the questions are pre-alg/elementary alg questions. 18 questions are intermediate alg/coordinate geo. 18 questions are plane geo/trig (without going and looking I can't not state definitively, but I am pretty sure that only 4 questions are from the trig category). Learning test-taking strategies will typically show gains in scores b/c the test are written in a very specific way that is fairly constant.

[HollyDay]

Interesting points. When I spoke with TT regarding their algebra program, I was told, I had to do both Algebra I and Algebra II to get a "full" algebra I course. They said I would also have to do their pre-calculus to get a "full" algebra II course. So, basically, I would need to buy 3 years of math at about $185/year to get a 2 year course. (?) This did not seem fiscally responsible to me when there are other good options.

 

Just my own opinion. IF you like the program, can afford it, it works well and meets your requirements, then great.

[Ellie]

Regardless of how good TT might or might not be, it is not common to count for high school credit a class that was taken 2 or 3 years before high school. This is especially true if your dc needs that credit for transcripts for college. Janet in WA (and others, I'm sure) said that several colleges specified that all credits on the transcript must have been earned in the immediate 4 years preceding graduation.

 

Personally, unless the charter school gives you grief, I wouldn't worry about whether or not TT meets CA standards. You might not stay with the charter school, and if you don't, you can give your dc any credit you want as a private school. You might even decide to let her take classes at the community college, where she'll either have to take algebra again, anyway, or she'll test into a higher math, and then it won't matter whether she earned high school credit or not for TT.

 

I've read many good testimonials about TT; if your dc is doing well, then use it.

[inactive]

I just get irritated with the cut downs on homeschool curriculums when clearly we are able to meet standards the ps cannot.

 

:iagree:

 

I'm wondering if some of those companies mentioned that *DO* meet the standards are giving some sort of kickback/payoff to the state of CA?? Just a thought...

[Orthodox6]

Agreeing with quoted text below. I browsed that link to the CA standards-aligned programs descriptions. The only information pertinent is that some programs "align", and other programs do not "align." Interesting, then, but irrelevant.

 

My homeschool is a "non-accredited private school" under Texas law. That reveals nothing about the quality of the education provided in my school.

 

The "TT question" is valid, I believe. I consider Saxon to be the same as TT in this specific regard. (I have used both programs enough to have figured this out long ago.) Both programs can bear the label "6th grade", but the content is what many people deem "5th grade" content. So long as the consumer studies the content of a math program, and chooses a program which effectively will bring a student to the desired degree of math competency, the student benefits in the end.

 

If the OP reads that same chart, she will see that Saxon math IS aligned to the California standards -- if she buys the version "tweaked" to include whatever picayune details the state of California desired included in order to have its own "personal version" of Saxon math.

 

The links provided don't say that they don't "meet" California standards, it states that they don't align well. It also states that they are great programs. It doesn't seem to mean that doing them is detrimental to your child's education at all. If your child is required to take certain tests maybe you need to look at the scope & sequence, figure out if anything is missing and study it. I agree that as far as the teacher goes I would give her the information you have received here. MUS also doesn't align with California requirements and plenty of kids use the program and excel. I do not use any of these programs, just trying to give my unbiased opinion!:001_smile:

[Sandy in Indy]

My ds did TT Alg 1 and Alg 2...which I counted on his transcript as Alg 1 and Alg 2. He scored very well on the SAT. Took Calculus at the cc last yr as a high school senior; tested into the class just fine and got an A.

 

Personally, I think it's more important for your kids to understand the material than whether or not it aligns with state standards...but then, I'm in Indiana where our requirements for hsing are very simple. (Take attendance.)

 

I recommend doing an intensive SAT/ACT prep course as the time approaches for the test. Chalkdust SAT Math review is excellent.

[Orthodox6]

This is tremendously useful information -- let alone serious "self-destruction" for the TT company !

 

I hear/read from other parents whose children have used TT algebra, that this is the case -- i.e. that both "algebra I" and "algebra II" from TT must be completed in order to have one legitimate year of high school algebra finished.

 

That the company itself would admit to this bowls me over ! As salespeople, they know that anybody would read the cover titles and assume that the TT program sells two complete high school years' worth of algebra. This is fraudulent marketing !

 

On the personal level, this ticks me off royally. I am using TT successfully this year with a child formally evaluated with serious math disabilities. If TT continues to be a useful math program for her, eventually she will be "ripped off" by one full school year because of this algebra situation.

 

Interesting points. When I spoke with TT regarding their algebra program, I was told, I had to do both Algebra I and Algebra II to get a "full" algebra I course. They said I would also have to do their pre-calculus to get a "full" algebra II course.

 

[jibaker103]

This is tremendously useful information -- let alone serious "self-destruction" for the TT company !

 

I hear/read from other parents whose children have used TT algebra, that this is the case -- i.e. that both "algebra I" and "algebra II" from TT must be completed in order to have one legitimate year of high school algebra finished.

 

That the company itself would admit to this bowls me over ! As salespeople, they know that anybody would read the cover titles and assume that the TT program sells two complete high school years' worth of algebra. This is fraudulent marketing !

 

On the personal level, this ticks me off royally. I am using TT successfully this year with a child formally evaluated with serious math disabilities. If TT continues to be a useful math program for her, eventually she will be "ripped off" by one full school year because of this algebra situation.

 

You are not getting ripped off!!! The curriculum just moves at slower pace than some other math curriculums out there. If you have ds/dd that is struggling in math or has severe math disabilities isn't that why you chose TT in the first place? The whole idea is for your child to understand, do, and complete math not keep up with other kids!!

 

So for me having a son who tested at 4th grade level in 7th grade ps TT is a God send and I don't care if their curriculum lines up with state standards or other curriculum on the market. I chose it because it goes slow enough for my son to understands it without making him feel stupid or like a failure.

 

Complete TT whole program and you will get all the same coverage as other curriculum. I plan to speed up or slow down as my ds needs to and school year round. If he finishes the whole program earlier than 12th I will find him another curriculum or have him take math at the cc. If he doesn't finish earlier I will confident in knowing he got all the math he needed, so what if it took him longer than others!!

[Pink Fairy]

I'm on my second year of using TT. I definitely think that when compared to other programs TT is at least a year behind (if you are trying to match levels to grades). You can see for yourself by looking over the online placement tests.

 

It's an easy fix for us. One of my two children using TT is very math-oriented, so we have him doing the same level as my math-challenged dd that's a grade ahead of him. So my 4th grader is using TT6, and so is my 5th grader. When we get to prealgebra, my son will use Chalk Dust, and my daughter will continue on with TT.

 

I love TT because it does such a great job of explaining things. Is it especially rigorous? No, but in my opionion that's a good thing. Not everyone is going to be a math whiz, and TT meets a need by providing solid instruction at a slower pace.

 

Here's a past thread about TT that you may find useful.

[HollyDay]

You are most certainly NOT getting ripped off!!!!

 

TT has a different scope and sequence from other "mainstream" programs. Remember MUS in the elementary years also has a different scope and sequence. Saxon has historically included Geometry with their other programs (I cannot address the new geometry program - haven't looked at it) which is different. LOF is another example of a program with a different scope and sequence. TT is not the only program to do things in their own way.

 

That is why I said (paraphrasing): If the program works for you and you can afford to commit to it for the entire series, then great!!!

 

This program works great for many families. It does not work for other families - which is true of ANY program.

 

The only advice I would possibly give would be to commit to it for the entire series. Not, just one year and switch to something else. IF you did that, then dc MIGHT have some gaps due to the scope and sequence.

 

IT is a GOOD program. But, like any program, be aware of its faults and shortcomings as well as its good points and ease of use.

[Orthodox6]

Whoa ! You sound angry ! You also piled on a bundle of unfounded assumptions of what you think I want from a math program, and what you think I want for my child.

 

Please ! ! ! :)

 

Yes, I consider it "rip off" to advertise coursework as "algebra 1" and "algebra 2", leaving the consumer to assume that he will have supplied his student with two years of high school algebra -- when he shall not have done so. This common-sense opinion is not related to what I think of the program's quality, nor to why I elected to use it with my student. Completely unrelated !

 

 

 

 

 

You are not getting ripped off!!! The curriculum just moves at slower pace than some other math curriculums out there. If you have ds/dd that is struggling in math or has severe math disabilities isn't that why you chose TT in the first place? The whole idea is for your child to understand, do, and complete math not keep up with other kids!!

 

So for me having a son who tested at 4th grade level in 7th grade ps TT is a God send and I don't care if their curriculum lines up with state standards or other curriculum on the market. I chose it because it goes slow enough for my son to understands it without making him feel stupid or like a failure.

 

Complete TT whole program and you will get all the same coverage as other curriculum. I plan to speed up or slow down as my ds needs to and school year round. If he finishes the whole program earlier than 12th I will find him another curriculum or have him take math at the cc. If he doesn't finish earlier I will confident in knowing he got all the math he needed, so what if it took him longer than others!!

[Orthodox6]

[identical reply as what I posted before this reply]

 

Good grief, ladies !

 

I am closely familiar with a number of math programs. I knew exactly what I was obtaining with a choice to use lower level TT math. I chose it deliberately to use with a child who was evaluated to have severe math LDs. She and I both are pleased thus far.

 

I'm wholly at a loss to understand these two furious replies.

 

May we please set this aside as you having misunderstood what I was saying ? Thank you !

 

You are most certainly NOT getting ripped off!!!!

 

TT has a different scope and sequence from other "mainstream" programs. Remember MUS in the elementary years also has a different scope and sequence. Saxon has historically included Geometry with their other programs (I cannot address the new geometry program - haven't looked at it) which is different. LOF is another example of a program with a different scope and sequence. TT is not the only program to do things in their own way.

 

That is why I said (paraphrasing): If the program works for you and you can afford to commit to it for the entire series, then great!!!

 

This program works great for many families. It does not work for other families - which is true of ANY program.

 

The only advice I would possibly give would be to commit to it for the entire series. Not, just one year and switch to something else. IF you did that, then dc MIGHT have some gaps due to the scope and sequence.

 

IT is a GOOD program. But, like any program, be aware of its faults and shortcomings as well as its good points and ease of use.

Edited September 5, 2009 by Orthodox6

[Hen]

I'm finding this thread intriguing, because I am with a charter in Ca, and they would have taken TT as meeting the standards for high school.

 

We pulled our dd out for high school anyways, the charter was so consumed with meeting the 'qualified teacher' mandates that they were steering us towards really boring stuff that seemed substandard to what we wanted to do.

 

I guess it depends on the charter?

[HollyDay]

Deep breath, deep breath.....

 

I'm not angry and did not intend my post to sound that way. I was just concerned my original post had led folks to a conclusion I had not intended. I was concerned that I was not clear in my original and wanted to elaborate. :001_smile:

[Ellie]

Personally, I think it's more important for your kids to understand the material than whether or not it aligns with state standards...but then, I'm in Indiana where our requirements for hsing are very simple. (Take attendance.)

See, homeschoolers in Calif don't have to worry about state standards at all, but the OP has her dc enrolled in a charter school, which is a public school, thus the discussion about state standards. Of course, it is entirely possible that the charter school doesn't have to follow state standards, either, depending on how its charter is written.

[jibaker103]

Whoa ! You sound angry ! You also piled on a bundle of unfounded assumptions of what you think I want from a math program, and what you think I want for my child.

 

Please ! ! ! :)

 

Yes, I consider it "rip off" to advertise coursework as "algebra 1" and "algebra 2", leaving the consumer to assume that he will have supplied his student with two years of high school algebra -- when he shall not have done so. This common-sense opinion is not related to what I think of the program's quality, nor to why I elected to use it with my student. Completely unrelated !

 

I was not angry at all!! Sorry if you took it that way!! :001_smile: I was emphasizing that whoever chooses to use the curriculum really needs to finish the whole program and not get hung up on how fast others are going or how other curriculum is designed. Also I was not speaking directly to you as I don't know your situation but as a general "you" to anyone having issues or doubts about the program. Sorry I wasn't clear on that as well!! :D

[Guest LOVED MATH...BEFORE TT]

I wonder why it is that Teaching Textbooks decided to make all their materials about a year behind? I've looked at their samples and have found the same thing. It seems they've really hurt themselves by doing this because it really makes the program seem like it's too easy when maybe it would be just fine if they would label the levels correctly.

 

Lisa

 

It's because they wanted parents to rave about the program! Think about it, your son or daughter (struggling in math) switch to TT and start making A's and B's. Wouldn't you sing the praises of the program? If you look at the testimonials you'll find that they're all from parents who HAD (or so they think) children struggling in math (in my opinion, they still are, because they're a year behind). I've never seen any testimonials (anywhere) from parents of math whizzes.

 

My Daughter went from Horizon's 6 to TT Pre-Algebra. She never learned anything new, was bored, and forgot half of the stuff she learned in Horizon's. Go figure. Technically she was supposed to be SKIPPING a grade (TT 7th) to Pre-Algebra. PRE-ALGEBRA NEVER GOT ANY HARDER THAN 6TH GRADE HORIZON'S! Unfortunately, since she wasn't using the stuff she had learned in Horizon's and forgot it, she wasn't prepared when we switched to Math U See for Algebra 1. It's a good thing she was only in 8th grade (since she "skipped" in TT) and had time to catch up & do a little review. Isn't REVIEW what Pre-Algebra is supposed to be? Wow. So actually, my daughter skipped ONE GRADE in TT...and was still bored. How about singing the praises of Horizon's? :001_smile: Too bad it only goes up to 6th, right?

 

For parents with children struggling in math, use TT if you like the program. But just remember that your kid could be getting the same grades & learning the same stuff (and maybe more) if they were just held back a year in another program. Example: Instead of doing Algebra 1, try Saxon or Math U See Pre-Algebra. Basically, don't limit yourself to TT because you think it's the only program that your child will succeed in. They're only succeeding because they're really a year behind. Is being a year behind a big deal? Nope. That's what homeschooling is all about right? Tailoring your curriculum to fit your child's needs :001_smile:

Edited November 10, 2009 by LOVED MATH...BEFORE TT

[iammommy]

How can you make the assumption that children who succeed with TT are only successful because it's a year behind? ("They're only succeeding because they're really a year behind.") Children have different learning styles, and TT might be just the approach they need. Also, many children (at least on this Board) use TT a year ahead and succeed. Your statement is totally ridiculous.

[lovemykids]

My dd 10, in fifth grade, is using TT two years ahead and thriving. She also recently started LOF. No problems here at all...:D

[Melabella]

It appears that the poster who resurrected this thread today may have an agenda. It is his/her first post and the screen name is Loved Math...Before TT.

[Spy Car]

First, California's Math standards are consistently the highest rated math standards in the nation.

 

Second. The fact that a publisher releases a math program that aligns with California's standards does not ipso facto mean the math program is brilliant. They have just met the scope and sequence and other requirements demanded by the CA standard. It could meet the standards and still be something you'd rather avoid.

 

Third. A math program could fail to conform to CA standards and still be a good math program. So-called "Singapore Math" (Primary Math) did not meet CA standards in it's US Edition, so to meet P.S. standards here in CA they made a "Standards Edition." I think it was improved for conforming with CA standards, but I would have used the US Edition happily were there no "Standards Edition." It's not as if one version is brilliant and the other is junk.

 

Bill

[Guest kckerr]

I've been using TT for about a year and half. When I took the practice ACT my grades were through the roof. I really was expecting the worse since I'm not very good in algebra but I was pleasantly surprised! I think if you stick with the curriculum, your child should do fine. I know I am :)

[Michelle T]

I haven't heard of any high school accepting credit from work done as a sixth grader, or other elementary grade.

 

CA standards are irrelevant to me. If I cared, I'd have my DS enrolled in the PS.

Michelle T

[Susie in CA]

Do you have some information you could point me to on that? Considering that Everyday Math meets CA standards (our local school district just committed to it, convincing me never to put my kids into PS until at least 9th grade), I'm surprised that Saxon does not. Perhaps CA standards are just not what I want to pay attention to...

 

There is a Saxon Math for California Standards. Our Charter School uses it. Frankly, after looking at it I have absolutly no interest in the California Standard. It is certainly below ours.

 

Susie