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Obedient children please God: True or False?


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This was a question in my 8 year old's math lesson today.:001_huh:

:rant:

 

Am I the only one who finds these sorts of questions extremely irritating? Every time I come across this type of leading question in my dc's work, I get sidetracked for about a half an hour as I launch into a long explanation about what faith in Christ is all about. Am I alone in the belief that the reason Jesus died on the cross was to deal with the problem of sin? Do most Christians really believe that our behavior is the main issue in the Christian life? Do most Christians believe that the Christian life is about "sin management"? Is this not the very essence of self righteousness? Do most Christians believe that Jesus came to give us more rules to follow? I thought the Gospel was the GOOD NEWS.:confused: I thought that Jesus told us that he came to FULFILL the law. I thought that when God looked at us, he saw Jesus, not our sin, weakness, inadequacies, etc.

 

Okay... rant over. I'm just a little tense right now. I've switched my entire family to CLE for LA & Math in order to simplify, and it's been a very difficult transition. I'm finally feeling like we're able to pick up and go, and now I'm feeling worried that we'll need to exert energy into correcting legalistic teaching. My oldest dd just informed me last week that her CLE literature is frustrating her too, because she's finding the religious content to be a bit distracting, and says it's confusing to figure out what is actually God's truth, and what is someone's religious bias. I was hoping she'd be mature enough to handle it, but to be honest, I'm not sure if I'm even mature enough to handle it.

 

I really don't want to open a can of worms here. I'm honestly wondering how consistent this line of thought is in the Christian community. I usually avoid Christian curriculum for this very reason, but had hoped CLE would be different.:sad:

 

Lori

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I mean, is obedience pleasing to God? Of course! There are too many references in His Word that call us to Holiness, Repentance and to abolish the sin in our lives. So, does behavior matter??? Certainly.

 

Should it be a response of love? Yes. But, it takes maturity for children (and me!) to get to that place. In the meantime, T or F works pretty well in their limited understanding.

 

Dont read too much into it. HTH

 

Kim

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Are they asking about obedience to God by children or obedience to parents by children? And this is in a math book? Sometimes I think the Christian publishers go overboard with the hammering of virtue into the kids through words on a page. I can understand placing a quotation or some such item to provoke thought, but a true/false question on a math page? Depending on the child's level of thinking that could be a tough question: what if a person demands that a child do something sinful - would obedience to that be pleasing to God? IMO, there should have been some other parameters added to the question.

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I'm honestly wondering how consistent this line of thought is in the Christian community.

 

 

Lori

 

Based on Colossians 3:20 - "Children, obey your parents in all things, for this well pleasing to the Lord." I'd say that the answer is True. And furthermore that it is God's truth and not someone's bias. And I would hope that this line of thought (That obedience is pleasing to God) would be consistent in the Christian community. However - I fear that too many congregations nowadays do not place the proper emphasis on obedience to God's word and they focus primarily on God's forgiveness and love to the exclusion of his hatred of sin. Yes, Jesus came to forgive us and give us new life in him. But we were created to glorify him and as such our lives should reflect the character of Christ, and obedience to his Word is one way to reflect his character to the world. Remember - it's all summed up in Love the Lord you God . . . and Love your neighbor as yourself.

 

However - I too would be distracted to see questions like this show up in a MATH lesson!!

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I do better with the religious content of Rod and Staff. Apparently my Lutheranism is closer to Mennonite than to whatever LCE (baptist?). Who knew?

 

I grew up with religious words on my spelling lists and Bible verses in my literature, but even at my Lutheran school I don't remember mixing Bible with math. It seems forced to me.

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I do better with the religious content of Rod and Staff. Apparently my Lutheranism is closer to Mennonite than to whatever LCE (baptist?). Who knew?

 

I grew up with religious words on my spelling lists and Bible verses in my literature, but even at my Lutheran school I don't remember mixing Bible with math. It seems forced to me.

 

From what I understand, R&S is Amish and CLE is Mennonite.

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My youngest did Horizons Math for a few years and they had math problems which if you did correctly you would solve a Christian riddle or uncover a cross or something like that. I didn't mind it at all since it was sort of a Christian response to uncovering a Jack o'lantern for a math sheet in October in a secular book type thing. However, I didn't expect and with Horizon, didn't get, religious lessons in math. That is not what I would be looking for, anyway.

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I do better with the religious content of Rod and Staff. Apparently my Lutheranism is closer to Mennonite than to whatever LCE (baptist?). Who knew?

 

 

 

I thought Mennonite would for with us, too. CLE is Mennonite.

 

Thanks for the support, Carol. I guess I knew that many would not see this issue through the same grid as me. You're a minister in your church, right? I have a degree in religious education (theological training). I know my Bible fairly well. I used to think along the same lines as others who have posted, but my paradigm has been shifting for a few years.

 

In Romans 8 we are told that there is no condemnation for those who are in Jesus. I guess the question in the true/false statement feels as though it is designed to bring condemnation. All children are disobedient. All adults are disobedient. In the thinking of many, do we only please God some of the time?

 

Here's another thought provoking question: Is God angry when we sin?

.

 

I know there are many scriptures that exhort us to obey God (which is how I interpreted the T/F statement), including "Children, obey your parents in all things, for this well pleasing to the Lord." Time to pull out my concordance and do a word study. The overarching message of the Gospel of Grace indicates to me that God's pleasure in us is because He sees us through the blood of Christ, not because of how we behave. I'll need to process and pray for a while.:001_smile: Reading the Bible through the eyes of God's Grace completely contradicts legalism.

 

Lori

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Dont read too much into it.

 

Kim

 

:iagree: It is just a simple statement. Obedience is pleasing to God no matter who it is. The book is written to Children and so the word children is used. You really have to try hard to force the idea that obedience pleases God into a negative, I think.

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I thought Mennonite would for with us, too. CLE is Mennonite.

 

Thanks for the support, Carol. I guess I knew that many would not see this issue through the same grid as me. You're a minister in your church, right? I have a degree in religious education (theological training). I know my Bible fairly well. I used to think along the same lines as others who have posted, but my paradigm has been shifting for a few years.

 

 

 

 

Just a layperson.

 

Do you know the hymn "Salvation Unto Us Has Come?"

It is the best summary of this theology that I have ever seen. I think you'd like it--it does go on and on, though. 9 verses, IIRC, all of them pretty long and dense.

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You really have to try hard to force the idea that obedience pleases God into a negative, I think.

 

LOL! Yes, I guess that sounds funny, if you think of it that way. I guess what I see as negative is the innuendo. I don't want my kids to obey God because they're afraid that if they don't, He won't "like" them anymore. They're just children, and they don't really have any concept of unconditional love. They know that if they don't please their friends, bothers, etc., the relationship can change. God isn't like that. The relationship can't change because of our behavior, since it's not our behavior that made the relationship "okay" in the first place.

 

Gotta run...

I'll be back in a few hours to check on the can of worms.:D

 

Lori

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Really ? I don't remember any religious inclusions with the Horizons math texts we have used.

 

I can't bear obtrusive religious preaching in textbooks for math, science, social sciences and/or language arts. When we first began homeschooling, such products were about the only thing available for purchase. The market has expanded greatly since then, to my relief. If the religious insertions were compatible with what my religion teaches, I could roll with it -- but I still probably would consider the material extraneous to the textbooks' purpose(s).

 

 

while using Horizons stuff. It's odd.

 

I do use a program that infuses Catholicism with the subjects being taught but it's all in context. What you describe and what I get from Horizons is herky jerky and bizarre, actually.

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Really ? I don't remember any religious inclusions with the Horizons math texts we have used.

 

I can't bear obtrusive religious preaching in textbooks for math, science, social sciences and/or language arts. When we first began homeschooling, such products were about the only thing available for purchase. The market has expanded greatly since then, to my relief. If the religious insertions were compatible with what my religion teaches, I could roll with it -- but I still probably would consider the material extraneous to the textbooks' purpose(s).

 

 

Really. It caught me by surprise because I had no idea Horizons was anything but a math program, like Singapore. I have found it in their Spelling and Vocabulary program and in the Math K program and Math 1. I think there is a little in the Phonics and Reading, too (I think).

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I really don't want to open a can of worms here. I'm honestly wondering how consistent this line of thought is in the Christian community. I usually avoid Christian curriculum for this very reason, but had hoped CLE would be different.:sad:

 

Lori

 

Nit combing all that stuff is one reason I switched to a secular curriculum. 1. I don't have the time. 2. After doing it so many times I got to the point of being angry, which was also a waste of time. So, I switched.

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I guess what I see as negative is the innuendo. I don't want my kids to obey God because they're afraid that if they don't, He won't "like" them anymore. They're just children, and they don't really have any concept of unconditional love. They know that if they don't please their friends, bothers, etc., the relationship can change. God isn't like that. The relationship can't change because of our behavior, since it's not our behavior that made the relationship "okay" in the first place.

 

Gotta run...

I'll be back in a few hours to check on the can of worms.:D

 

Lori

 

Yup. :iagree: It took me too long as a believer to stop thinking like that, and it's something that I never want my children to learn.

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I don't want my kids to obey God because they're afraid that if they don't, He won't "like" them anymore. They're just children, and they don't really have any concept of unconditional love. They know that if they don't please their friends, bothers, etc., the relationship can change. God isn't like that.

 

Hmmm...

 

Children NATURALLY want to please their parents and other authority figures unless that has been trained out of them (which unfortunately, parents these days seem to have a knack for). Even still, I think it is still there to a degree. And parents should have unconditional love for their children. That is what children know. Parents from families like yours learn that God is a greater parent than you and your spouse are and so love even more and better. So they aim to please God as they aim to please you. And for some kids, they seem to respect it coming from higher up.

 

Also, there are MANY scriptures that discuss PEOPLE obeying as well as children obeying. In fact, obeying is likened to showing love to God. Though God and Jesus were the ones that made the sacrifices and allowances to give people life, when we accept the gift, we accept the responsibility of it's upkeep as well as possible also. Our salvation is not based on our works but our works most certainly aren't useless either. Many scriptures point to what we should or should not do and we most certainly should try to live up to those.

 

BUT, I don't want it in my math book! LOL I don't want crosses or jack-o-laterns or any of that in there.

 

Oh, and Christian curriculum usually work on character and behavior rather than doctrine. That doesn't mean that is where their (the publisher's) focus is spirtually, if that makes sense.

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Obedience to who & in what circumstances?

 

Parents? If they are following the word of God and not doing anything sinful... yes. If they are telling kid to steal a pack of cigarettes, no!

 

Elders? If they are following the word of God, again YES. If they want you kid to lie, etc... no!

 

Government? Same thing... following will & word of God, YES. (ex. Daniel praying at his window). If they are asking you to kill or turn in your neighbor b/c he is a Jew... no!

 

Obedience is clearly defined in scripture. We are naturally defiant in everything & always look for ways to justify it! Obedience is about doing what God teaches us to do & understanding we needed Christ because we will fail.

 

Christ doesn't free us from the concept of obedience to God. He was the PERFECT EXAMPLE of obedience.:001_smile:

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I agree - I don't like it either (and I'm Lutheran, too ;)). Not so much for what it says, which is true enough, but because I generally have serious theological differences with people who choose to emphasize obedience. The focus should be on what Christ did for us, not on what we do in return (which is only possible because of God's grace anyway). I plan to avoid most Christian curricula b/c of things like this.

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I mean, is obedience pleasing to God? Of course! There are too many references in His Word that call us to Holiness, Repentance and to abolish the sin in our lives. So, does behavior matter??? Certainly.

 

Should it be a response of love? Yes. But, it takes maturity for children (and me!) to get to that place. In the meantime, T or F works pretty well in their limited understanding.

 

Dont read too much into it. HTH

 

Kim

 

:iagree: I could not have said it better.

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I think obedience is pleasing to God. I think it's an outward choice because of an inward change. Does God loves us less when we don't? Absolutely not, but in not obeying Him (or sinning) it does separate us from God. Do we lose salvation, no. I think it's very similar to my children being obedient. They have a choice in the matter and I am pleased when they obey. Do they do it out fear? Sometimes, but I hope they do it because they know it's the right thing to do. I think my kids understand that in choosing to obey they are trusting that I have their best interest in mind. I don't give them tasks to do to be mean or legalistic but because it's the right thing. In asking them not to talk to strangers, they understand that I have their best interest in mind. In asking them to clean their room I think they understand that we all do chores to make our home a lovely and pleasant place to be in. I am pleased when they obey, and I show it. Will I love them less when they don't obey? No, my love is unconditional although they will have consequences for that action. I think in the same way God is pleased by our obedience but His love stays the same regardless.

 

I 'd rather have that in their math than other things ( like Halloween) but I chose my math based on what curriculum will teach them math the most efficiently and fully. Is the math taught in the way that you would prefer? If so, then I wouldn't worry about the rest.

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This was a question in my 8 year old's math lesson today.:001_huh:

:rant:

 

Am I the only one who finds these sorts of questions extremely irritating? Every time I come across this type of leading question in my dc's work, I get sidetracked for about a half an hour as I launch into a long explanation about what faith in Christ is all about. Am I alone in the belief that the reason Jesus died on the cross was to deal with the problem of sin? Do most Christians really believe that our behavior is the main issue in the Christian life? Do most Christians believe that the Christian life is about "sin management"? Is this not the very essence of self righteousness? Do most Christians believe that Jesus came to give us more rules to follow? I thought the Gospel was the GOOD NEWS.:confused: I thought that Jesus told us that he came to FULFILL the law. I thought that when God looked at us, he saw Jesus, not our sin, weakness, inadequacies, etc.

 

Okay... rant over. I'm just a little tense right now. I've switched my entire family to CLE for LA & Math in order to simplify, and it's been a very difficult transition. I'm finally feeling like we're able to pick up and go, and now I'm feeling worried that we'll need to exert energy into correcting legalistic teaching. My oldest dd just informed me last week that her CLE literature is frustrating her too, because she's finding the religious content to be a bit distracting, and says it's confusing to figure out what is actually God's truth, and what is someone's religious bias. I was hoping she'd be mature enough to handle it, but to be honest, I'm not sure if I'm even mature enough to handle it.

 

I really don't want to open a can of worms here. I'm honestly wondering how consistent this line of thought is in the Christian community. I usually avoid Christian curriculum for this very reason, but had hoped CLE would be different.:sad:

 

Lori

 

Well, I'd be irritated to find that in a math book, too. And you are right, I think it does have a negative innuendo. I firmly believe in Lordship salvation - the idea that when God saves us by His grace, our lives will be characterized by obedience to Him out of love and a grateful heart.

 

Nevertheless, I think it is dangerous to risk leading a child to believe that since obedience pleases God that disobedience must therefore withdraw His pleasure. A child could easily make that assumption from a question like that. I do understand that obedience is a good thing and that it does please God, but I think children can very easily get the wrong notion that good works please God and that when they fail to be "good" God removes His favor and kindness from them. Christianity is not primarily about our behavior, but Christ's payment for our sins on the cross and His conquering death through His resurrection. When the truth of what Christ has done for you penetrates your heart, no doubt, your behavior will change. God himself will undertake to transform you into the likeness of His Son. (Rom. 8:28-29)

 

None of us can please God apart from Christ's finished work on the cross. It is Christ's goodness and obedience, obedience unto death (Phil. 2) that gives any of us hope at all.

 

Why can't math books just be math books???

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I would not be happy to find a question phrased that way and directed toward my child in any textbook. I have used Horizons math for years and can only recall once seeing a cross when the kids filled in a puzzle, other than that I have not seen any quotations or questions of a religious nature.

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This was a question in my 8 year old's math lesson today.:001_huh:

:rant:

 

Am I the only one who finds these sorts of questions extremely irritating?

Nope, these types of questions make me crazy!Every time I come across this type of leading question in my dc's work, I get sidetracked for about a half an hour as I launch into a long explanation about what faith in Christ is all about. Am I alone in the belief that the reason Jesus died on the cross was to deal with the problem of sin? You are most definitely not alone. It is my brokeness that makes me cry out to God; it is my sinful nature that makes me realize that every breath I take happens only because Jesus loved me enough to die, despite my sin. Do most Christians really believe that our behavior is the main issue in the Christian life? I don't. The main issue in my Christian walk is staying in touch with my broken-self. Do most Christians believe that the Christian life is about "sin management"? Sin Management isn't on my radar, or at least not at the forefront of my radar. Most important to me is walking closely with Jesus; sometimes I don't do the right things but my sinful nature doesn't make God love me any less. He's totally in my corner. Is this not the very essence of self righteousness? I think so. Do most Christians believe that Jesus came to give us more rules to follow? This Christian doesn't believe that at all. It's a heart-level relationship. I thought the Gospel was the GOOD NEWS.:confused: I thought that Jesus told us that he came to FULFILL the law. I thought that when God looked at us, he saw Jesus, not our sin, weakness, inadequacies, etc. Yes, He does, Friend. I'll gladly stand with you on the soapbox and proclaim that the most important thing is receiving God's unconditional love and acceptance.

 

 

 

Of course, it's a theologically-loaded question -- I've read my fair share of Brennan Manning's books and I've walked far far away from the land of "Follow the Rules." There is a balance between license and legalism and I do my best to walk in that middle ground.

 

Warmly, Tricia

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A Christian's life should be marked by obedience...not in an effort to win God's favor, but as a result of the grace that has been poured out in our lives through the work of Christ. Christ didn't die for us just so we could be forgiven and have a ticket to heaven. He also died so that we could be freed from the slavery of sin and instead become slaves of righteousness.....in this life. Romans 6 describes this in detail. This is an ongoing process (sanctification) that is characterized by many peaks and valleys. Thankfully when we're in the valleys, God gives us the grace to repent and we can look to Christ with confidence and trust that our sin was taken care of at the cross. Trying to be holy and forsake sin in our lives because we want to obey God out of love for him is not self-righteousness. It's self-righteous to think that our efforts win us favor with God. It's self-righteous to look to ourselves and not to Christ. If it weren't for God's grace we wouldn't even have a desire to please him.

 

 

That being said, I see no point in having questions like this "forced" into a math lesson.

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I think "obedient children please God" is different than "obedience pleases God." These are two different concepts. I agree that it would be disruptive in a math lesson.

 

We used Horizons and I know there was quite a bit of religious stuff but it was working out the word puzzle that said "Jesus Loves You" or a word problem that involved a Sunday school offering. It wasn't anything like this.

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A Christian's life should be marked by obedience...not in an effort to win God's favor, but as a result of the grace that has been poured out in our lives through the work of Christ. Christ didn't die for us just so we could be forgiven and have a ticket to heaven. He also died so that we could be freed from the slavery of sin and instead become slaves of righteousness.....in this life. Romans 6 describes this in detail. This is an ongoing process (sanctification) that is characterized by many peaks and valleys. Thankfully when we're in the valleys, God gives us the grace to repent and we can look to Christ with confidence and trust that our sin was taken care of at the cross. Trying to be holy and forsake sin in our lives because we want to obey God out of love for him is not self-righteousness. It's self-righteous to think that our efforts win us favor with God. It's self-righteous to look to ourselves and not to Christ. If it weren't for God's grace we wouldn't even have a desire to please him.

 

 

That being said, I see no point in having questions like this "forced" into a math lesson.

 

Well said!

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Of course, it's a theologically-loaded question -- I've read my fair share of Brennan Manning's books and I've walked far far away from the land of "Follow the Rules." There is a balance between license and legalism and I do my best to walk in that middle ground.

 

Warmly, Tricia

 

:grouphug:Thank you. I wish you were close by, since I think I'd enjoy having a cup of tea with you.:)

 

Lori

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Well, I'd be irritated to find that in a math book, too. And you are right, I think it does have a negative innuendo. I firmly believe in Lordship salvation - the idea that when God saves us by His grace, our lives will be characterized by obedience to Him out of love and a grateful heart.

 

Nevertheless, I think it is dangerous to risk leading a child to believe that since obedience pleases God that disobedience must therefore withdraw His pleasure. A child could easily make that assumption from a question like that. I do understand that obedience is a good thing and that it does please God, but I think children can very easily get the wrong notion that good works please God and that when they fail to be "good" God removes His favor and kindness from them. Christianity is not primarily about our behavior, but Christ's payment for our sins on the cross and His conquering death through His resurrection. When the truth of what Christ has done for you penetrates your heart, no doubt, your behavior will change. God himself will undertake to transform you into the likeness of His Son. (Rom. 8:28-29)

 

None of us can please God apart from Christ's finished work on the cross. It is Christ's goodness and obedience, obedience unto death (Phil. 2) that gives any of us hope at all.

 

Why can't math books just be math books???

 

You have articulated things in a way that I couldn't - because of my frustration level. God is nudging me about my reaction, and I'm realizing that my buttons are a bit too easily pushed in this area. I think it's because I wasted so many years trying to earn God's approval, rather than simply abiding in Him, and resting in His grace. I don't want my children to fall into the same trap.

 

Lori

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I agree - I don't like it either (and I'm Lutheran, too ;)). Not so much for what it says, which is true enough, but because I generally have serious theological differences with people who choose to emphasize obedience. The focus should be on what Christ did for us, not on what we do in return (which is only possible because of God's grace anyway). I plan to avoid most Christian curricula b/c of things like this.

 

Hmm... I wonder if I'm a Lutheran, too. :001_huh:

 

Lori

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I don't like true/false questions about complex issues in life, much less religious issues simplistically stated in a math book. Why can't they have something like "Chocolate is nutritious, true or false" (mind you, I have a 1900-era cookbook that promotes the health benefit and predicts the coming popularity of cocoa). Just kidding. Getting sidetracked by the substance of the question is distracting, I agree.

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That was a math lesson?:001_huh:

 

This is why I stay clear of overtly Christian curriculum as well, unless I am using it to teach bible lessons. But even than I am careful of what I use.

 

I suppose the short answer is yes but it's more complicated and I would also be uncomfortable having something like that as a True and False question.

 

I assume there are other open and go curricula out there, but I am sure you have already invested in this and it's working for you.

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This was a question in my 8 year old's math lesson today.:001_huh:

:rant:

 

Am I the only one who finds these sorts of questions extremely irritating? Every time I come across this type of leading question in my dc's work, I get sidetracked for about a half an hour as I launch into a long explanation about what faith in Christ is all about. Am I alone in the belief that the reason Jesus died on the cross was to deal with the problem of sin? Do most Christians really believe that our behavior is the main issue in the Christian life? Do most Christians believe that the Christian life is about "sin management"? Is this not the very essence of self righteousness? Do most Christians believe that Jesus came to give us more rules to follow? I thought the Gospel was the GOOD NEWS.:confused: I thought that Jesus told us that he came to FULFILL the law. I thought that when God looked at us, he saw Jesus, not our sin, weakness, inadequacies, etc.

 

Okay... rant over. I'm just a little tense right now. I've switched my entire family to CLE for LA & Math in order to simplify, and it's been a very difficult transition. I'm finally feeling like we're able to pick up and go, and now I'm feeling worried that we'll need to exert energy into correcting legalistic teaching. My oldest dd just informed me last week that her CLE literature is frustrating her too, because she's finding the religious content to be a bit distracting, and says it's confusing to figure out what is actually God's truth, and what is someone's religious bias. I was hoping she'd be mature enough to handle it, but to be honest, I'm not sure if I'm even mature enough to handle it.

 

I really don't want to open a can of worms here. I'm honestly wondering how consistent this line of thought is in the Christian community. I usually avoid Christian curriculum for this very reason, but had hoped CLE would be different.:sad:

 

Lori

Well... 1 John 5:3, "This is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments". Colossians 3:20 "Children, be obedient to your parents in all things, for this is well-pleasing to the Lord."

Okay... rant over. I'm just a little tense right now. I've switched my entire family to CLE for LA & Math in order to simplify, and it's been a very difficult transition. I'm finally feeling like we're able to pick up and go, and now I'm feeling worried that we'll need to exert energy into correcting legalistic teaching. My oldest dd just informed me last week that her CLE literature is frustrating her too, because she's finding the religious content to be a bit distracting, and says it's confusing to figure out what is actually God's truth, and what is someone's religious bias. I was hoping she'd be mature enough to handle it, but to be honest, I'm not sure if I'm even mature enough to handle it.

 

I really don't want to open a can of worms here. I'm honestly wondering how consistent this line of thought is in the Christian community. I usually avoid Christian curriculum for this very reason, but had hoped CLE would be different.:sad:

It is helpful to hear this about CLE. All I see are raves, and we need to know about potential problems.
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