The hierarchy of learning and teacher interaction

[8filltheheart]

I don't want to stir a hornets' nest, but I do want to share a few thoughts about the different levels of cognitive processing and how teaching plays a significant role in that mental development.

 

When children learn, they can (but don't necessarily) progress through multiple stages. The basic level is knowledge. The most advanced is synthesis/evaluation. The progression from knowledge to higher level congitive skills requires interactive teaching that guide the student through the stages.

 

Watching a video is a passive action. So is reading information. Repeating back what was heard/read requires only the lowest level of learning......knowledge. So does filling in blanks, matching, etc. To discuss, interpret, teach, explain, and bring in unique understanding are all different levels of progression through the hierarchy of learning and each require higher levels of cognition beyond knowledge.

 

Using videos and texts as teaching tools that lead to direct teacher interaction vs. single dimension education (screen/book) will help lead children to an education beyond the knowledge level base.

 

I am concerned b/c of the sheer number of posts referring to not wanting to teach x material and wanting a video teacher or wanting self-teaching materials. Videos/computer instruction can be used in such a way where they lead to greater understanding beyond knowledge. For example, stopping the video and questioning the student to put into their own words, challenging their understanding by altering the information that they have seen and applying the information to a new scenario, etc. But using a screen teacher as the sole teacher is single-dimensional and is limited to a knowledge level base. So is using a text which simply requires copying the answers to questions from the book.

 

One remedy is to learn along with the student. Adults do learn and process information far differently than children. An adult will see connections that children do not. Stop and discuss the relations that you see that are not in the video. As they get older and they actually learn more quickly than you do (has happened to me more than once!!), you can stop the video and get them to teach you the information (teaching someone else requires a much higher level of understanding than repeating the information.)

 

Direct interaction/teaching will ultimately reap greater rewards in the long-term understanding and ownership of material being studied.

 

Here is a link to an explanation of the hierarchy of learning. http://www.tcc.edu/faculty/webpages/yyong/Idesign/COGNITIVE.htm

 

Much more can be found by researching Bloom's taxonomy of cognitive development.

[Mama Lynx]

Excellent and important post. I'd rep you, if I could.

[Elizabeth Conley]

I happen to agree with you, but then I run a dust bunny ranch!

 

Seriously, this takes a lot of time. I start teaching at 0700, break at 1100, resume at 1200 and go 'til 1400. There are only two students, but the information they go through each day is both qualitatively and quantitatively great.

 

I trot back and forth between the two for the entire time, and spend much of the lunch break plus a half hour after school grading material or generating quizzes and study materials.

 

Not everyone has that kind of time, nor do they want to give their homes over to the dust bunnies as I have.

[Riverfront Headmistress]

Excellent post. However, as of this year my eldest is using Chalkdust math as well as an online biology class. In my defense, I do participate in the mentioned programs because I have found that often I still need to explain certain areas. My goal is to train my children to be independent learners, but that in itself, takes learning. :)

[clwcain]

Not everyone has that kind of time, nor do they want to give their homes over to the dust bunnies as I have.

 

Then they should seriously reconsider whether or not homeschooling is the best course of action.

 

You cannot hand on what you do not possess.

 

Hiring tutors is one course of action. Putting children in an institutional school environment is another. Video and even online study can be effective as one component of a student's studies.

 

But neither method is an effective replacement for genuine interaction between the live student and a live teacher who is, ideally, a master of the subject matter.

 

If the parent is incapable or unwilling to do the work necessary to be able to educate their child, they need to rethink why they are homeschooling and whether it is the best solution of the options available.

[Hillary in KS]

Excellent post!

 

I have 3 students in K-8, and teaching them takes a lot of time. We start at 8 am and while the elementary students are done by lunch (if they don't dawdle), the jr. higher is usually done by 3 or 4.

 

MFS wrote an excellent post years ago about how teaching our children is a difficult and important job, and it is encouraging to be reminded that I should view it as such and put as much effort into my end of it as I would whatever profession I would be in if I had no children.

 

I'm re-learning Algebra with my 8th grader, and learning Latin and logic with him as well. As my children are growing I try hard to remember that students tend to become like their teachers, and it motivates me to work to *be* the sort of student that I want my children to be.

 

Thanks for an encouraging reminder, momof7!

[frogpond1]

myself.

[Guest]

You cannot hand on what you do not possess.

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

I know I appear an exuberant newbie at times, but this is my heart behind inquiring and "hanging around" so much.

 

Encouraging post, momof7.

[8filltheheart]

I don't think reading is passive myself.

 

Actually, you are correct. It isn't passive. However, simply reading material, in and of itself, is a lower level cognitive function. I should have been more clear. The main distinction I am trying to make is that it is only through moving beyond the re-iteration of material that higher level cognition takes place.

[jibaker103]

myself.

It is passive until you do something with it!!! Discussing and writing about what you read no longer makes it passive!

[Mama Lynx]

I run a dust bunny ranch, too.

 

Now ... I will admit, I either don't do as much teaching as you do, or I spread it out so much that it doesn't seem like that intense of an amount of time. I've got two littles, who only take an hour to an hour and a half of teaching each, more if I count read-alouds. With my olders, it's a balance of teaching, and allowing them to work independently/learn themselves, with my supervision. Sometimes they are quite capable of doing the work, learning, and coming back to me for a discussion in which I ensure they have learned and are able to synthesize and express the material intelligently. And then if it's clear that this is not working, it signals a switch to a time of more active, regular, direct teaching on my part.

 

But where they are able to do that, it is because I taught them to do that. And in the end, for those classes, we probably end up spending the time in discussion that I would have spent in active teaching.

 

And where they are able to do that, it still means that I must have my own command of the subject, and be up on the material, to step in and teach when it is necessary. So I read the books, I study my Latin, and I research and think about effective teaching methods, as well.

[SoCal Sandra]

for the post and the link.

[Mama Lynx]

The light bulb went off in my head when I began to equate homeschool teaching with tutoring. Tutoring conjures up images of teaching that is much more direct, tailored, and focused, and that is what we do.

[Stacy in NJ]

Great post, momof7.

 

The most difficult aspect of homeschooling for me is the re-learning and leaning how to teach what I know. :D

 

It's unrealistic for parents to expect kiddos to learn and master material the parents are unable or unwilling to learn/relearn themselves (at least in the younger grades). At some point it is important for logic or rhetoric stage kids to take a larger responsibility for their own learning, but it's just not realistic in the grammar stage.

 

There are many different ways to interact with the material and the student, not everyone needs to do it in the same way, but that interaction is vital to learning.

[Hillary in KS]

It's unrealistic for parents to expect kiddos to learn and master material the parents are unable or unwilling to learn/relearn themselves (at least in the younger grades). At some point it is important for logic or rhetoric stage kids to take a larger responsibility for their own learning, but it's just not realistic in the grammar stage.

 

There are many different ways to interact with the material and the student, not everyone needs to do it in the same way, but that interaction is vital to learning.

 

:iagree:

[ElizabethB]

The light bulb went off in my head when I began to equate homeschool teaching with tutoring. Tutoring conjures up images of teaching that is much more direct, tailored, and focused, and that is what we do.

:iagree:

 

I tutored for years before homeschooling, when I'm teaching my daughter, tutoring is a better term for what I do than teaching or "schooling."

 

I also like to combine a bit of spelling with phonics because I think it gets the learning up to a higher level of understanding and doing. I use oral spelling and magnetic letters for students who do not write well.

 

I've also found that math takes a lot more work to do well that I would have thought at the K and 1st grade levels. Math came easily for me at the early elementary levels, but I've had to do a lot of research and experimenting with my teaching methods and curriculum choices to find something that worked well for my daughter.

[rlowetx]

Its actually very interesting and I do agree with the concept. However, if you can't do it the most ideal way, then is it really okay to just throw your hands up and put kids back in the system? What if you can't afford a private tutor? There are so many reasons to homeschool, that it may still be the best situation even if it isn't perfect.

Interestingly enough, many high schools are using on-line learning for their classes these days - so sending your kids back to school because you can't sit with them one on one through everything and instead use an on-line or dvd program isn't the solution. One private school we looked at had their entire HS program on-line.

Ideal is different than best for your situation. But I'm still new and probably naive.

[Capt_Uhura]

I read the intro for VideoText Algebra and it suggests the parent watch the video w/ the child w/ the expectation that the video is paused every few minutes for discussion. Now in actuality, how many use it that way? The same with the Spanish curriculum I'm using. It says that while you can just hand it to the child (audio curriculum, following along in a book), it works much better if you listen w/ the child, learn the words, use them throughout the day, make up your own stories using the words etc. A friend is using it as exposure and her DS did it entirely independently. I do it w/ my kids and while this series gets poor reviews, I'm impressed with my boys retention but I do give the reinforcement, discussion, etc. It does take work and learning on my part.

[jibaker103]

Its actually very interesting and I do agree with the concept. However, if you can't do it the most ideal way, then is it really okay to just throw your hands up and put kids back in the system? What if you can't afford a private tutor? There are so many reasons to homeschool, that it may still be the best situation even if it isn't perfect.

Interestingly enough, many high schools are using on-line learning for their classes these days - so sending your kids back to school because you can't sit with them one on one through everything and instead use an on-line or dvd program isn't the solution. One private school we looked at had their entire HS program on-line.

Ideal is different than best for your situation. But I'm still new and probably naive.

I don't think she meant all or nothing. The idea is that if you use passive learning such as videos to make sure you balance it with higher order thinking activities such as discussion. I personally think there is a fine line between indpendent learning and learning alone. My son can go off read, do assignments, and write all the essays in the world but he still needs human interaction with the material to not only make it stick but to also make connections, apply it to real life, and bounce ideas off someone else.

[8filltheheart]

Its actually very interesting and I do agree with the concept. However, if you can't do it the most ideal way, then is it really okay to just throw your hands up and put kids back in the system? What if you can't afford a private tutor? There are so many reasons to homeschool, that it may still be the best situation even if it isn't perfect.

Interestingly enough, many high schools are using on-line learning for their classes these days - so sending your kids back to school because you can't sit with them one on one through everything and instead use an on-line or dvd program isn't the solution. One private school we looked at had their entire HS program on-line.

Ideal is different than best for your situation. But I'm still new and probably naive.

 

 

Couple of quick thoughts b/c I have spent too much time here today.....

 

First.....there is a difference b/t an online class and dvd instruction. Online classes do have teachers and direct interaction (even if not face-to-face). Even so, I have found online classes do have their limitations.

 

Second, I posted this on the K-8 board. While my post holds true for high school students as well, it becomes a different matter of degree than with K-8 students.

 

Third, if a parent is unable to sit and provide direct interaction for all subject matter, then it should become a matter of prioritizing material. LAs and math should take the highest priority. Other subjects, while wonderful to have, are not as foundational to all higher learning as those 2 subjects (yet math, grammar, writing, spelling, phonics, etc. are many of the very subjects people want to not directly teach.)

[elegantlion]

The light bulb went off in my head when I began to equate homeschool teaching with tutoring. Tutoring conjures up images of teaching that is much more direct, tailored, and focused, and that is what we do.

 

 

:iagree:We are in our 6th year of homeschooling and last year I started digging into my own self-ed. I can already see how that learning ahead has helped me feel more confident and be more knowledgeable in my teaching/tutoring.

 

This post is very timely as I got online to revisit my own goals for the next year.

 

Thanks for the reminder.

[Capt_Uhura]

momof7 - thank you for your very timely post! I posted above but forgot to add the thank you. :001_smile:

 

I love the idea of thinking of it as tutoring vs teaching as that work does conjure up images of one on one interaction, tailored curriculum, pace etc.

 

I've been thinking along these lines as I was feeling that I was too involved in DS9s school work. But he loves the interaction with me and doesn't do as well on his own unless it's history or science. I wondered about those folks who post that DC has a checklist and they go from one thing to the next and check off when they are done. I couldn't think of one thing we do that I would be able to do that with. I recall my friend and I discussing whether or not Growing w/ Grammar was meant to be done independently. It seems so simple and straightforward. However I did it w/ my son. We read the text together, he did a section and then I'd ask why he chose a specific answer. He often, from hearing grammatically correct speech and reading a lot, can choose the right word ... but it would take some thought for him to tell me WHY he chose that besides "it sounded right." Our discussions definitely reinforced what he was learning and he retains it better. If I try to save it all for the he's ready to be done, so I stop periodically and ask him about his answers while I flit around the house doing chores or playing w/ my toddler. And he doesn't like to write so sometime I acted as his scribe or we just did it orally and discussed problems as we went....so definitely not independent for us! So I've wondered if I am too involved in some things.

[Dinsfamily]

Great post, momof7. Being able to tutor my child is one of the main reasons I decided to homeschool. Great link!

 

 

The most difficult aspect of homeschooling for me is the re-learning and leaning how to teach what I know. :D

 

It's unrealistic for parents to expect kiddos to learn and master material the parents are unable or unwilling to learn/relearn themselves (at least in the younger grades). At some point it is important for logic or rhetoric stage kids to take a larger responsibility for their own learning, but it's just not realistic in the grammar stage.

 

There are many different ways to interact with the material and the student, not everyone needs to do it in the same way, but that interaction is vital to learning.

 

Good add-on, Stacy. I think that's why there are so many curricula out there. What works great for me, might not make sense to another teacher. No matter what the child's learning-style, it has to click with the teacher too.

 

Its actually very interesting and I do agree with the concept. However, if you can't do it the most ideal way, then is it really okay to just throw your hands up and put kids back in the system? What if you can't afford a private tutor? There are so many reasons to homeschool, that it may still be the best situation even if it isn't perfect.

Interestingly enough, many high schools are using on-line learning for their classes these days - so sending your kids back to school because you can't sit with them one on one through everything and instead use an on-line or dvd program isn't the solution. One private school we looked at had their entire HS program on-line.

Ideal is different than best for your situation. But I'm still new and probably naive.

 

True, but I also view it as a challenge to make sure I'm providing the best education I can for my dc.

[sagira]

Interesting discussion. I've been thinking about this myself. I know some people that are homeschooling entirely online, or are following the Florida Virtual School. For me I think the danger in that would lie with me, as it would be all too easy to let the computer, program or video to "do everything" and I just being smug about homeschooling my dc. I'm not saying it's like this for most parents, but I can see myself doing that. Hence, I chose a more difficult, but for me I think, satisfying, way -- a Charlotte Mason education where the child is responsible for a lot of his learning, but I act as a coach and facilitator, mentor and tutor. I direct his studies, we do nature walks, sketches, he reads books, I read aloud to him, and we discuss, ask questions and make sense of the world together.

 

I do think that interactive learning is preferable for almost all students.

[Wildiris]

About Bloom's Taxonomy~ I think the idea is to have a student move through all levels of the taxonomy. There is a place for simple recall that relies on knowledge and comprehension questions, as there is a place for the critical thinking of analysis and synthesis. I am not sure I agree with you that DVD programs equal passive learning. If critical thinking can be defined as reflecting on new information (no matter the source) and applying it to old beliefs or concepts, essentially evaluating ideas, then I do believe students are capable of this without parents being so actively involved.

 

The question of when a student is capable of evaluation and self-evaluation is an important one. I would not leave my six year old alone with a DVD "learning" program and expect her to learn well; however, I do expect my 12 year old to be moving in this direction as a more independent learner.

 

There is a point when a student's knowledge exceeds your own. Perhaps this is why high schools require teacher be single subject certified; one person cannot possibly be an learned in all things. I personally look toward DVDs as a means of filling in my weaknesses as a teacher particularly as my student moves from junior high to high school. This doesn't mean that I do not teach. My roll changes to a facilitator and at best a tutor.

 

The issue you raise about on line learning is an interesting one. Many, many classes are being taught on line, and universities are creating hybrid classes using internet technology for discussion groups. But some of the on line learning I have seen directed at younger students are nothing more than test prep sites with multiple choice questions and little application of what is learned.

 

Two of my most recently read books may interest you. The Achievement Gap and College Prep Homeschool. The Achievement Gap is more about public education and the expectations for students to possess skills for the twenty-first century. The author outlines what he calls Seven Survival Skills. Critical thinking and problem solving top the list. Don't let the fact that its main audience is public education discourage your reading. Interestingly, similar skills, but not called survival skills, are outlined in College Prep Homeschool. The audience for this is obviously homeschool parents and students, and the over lap of skills is remarkable. I do urge readers to look at College Prep Homeschool. I think the information the authors present in College Pre could easily be used by any homeschool parent.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Wildiris
n/a

[rafiki]

.

[Janice in NJ]

Yes, Yes, Yes, YES!

Did I mention that I agree? :001_smile:

 

We have used mom-non-intensive video instruction around here when ever I need it. (I am actively teaching three kids with two in high school. Sometimes I need another set of hands.) But my kids will tell you that my favorite phrase is, "It's NOT TV!!!!!!!!!!"

 

I have taught my kids how to engage with the screen. No one uses video instruction around here without properly-scheduled face-time with mom to make sure that they have engaged with the material. Every day is the norm. If they seem to be handling the subject well, that face-time might switch to every other day; or if they are older and have been doing this for a while and the subject interests them, it might be as infrequent as once a week. BUT I have learned the hard, hard way not to expect maturity from children. No one spends more than a week "learning" from the screen without proving to mom that you have learned the material. Lapses in judgement that extend past five days of instruction are too painful to make-up.

 

Serious reading in our house at the high-school level is an entirely different process than reading at the 5th grade level. Susan and Jessie are right; it is best done at a table with a pencil in hand. Period. It requires a different set of skills than casual reading. It is a skill. In our house it has to be taught, learned, and practiced. There is much more interaction between the author and the reader. The child has to learn to respond to the page. The same thing is true of video "instruction." Learning how to engage with the screen - especially when the screen has always inspired a sense of "duh!" - has to be taught, learned, and practiced. Some would argue that it is a poor way to learn. However, for us The Teaching Company has provided me with such a fabulous medium for exploring some very complex subjects with professors who can introduce so much in such a short period of time that I have decided that it was more than worth my time to teach my kids how to engage with a flat, talking head. Yes, we still read. As much as we can. But we use the screen too. Often. And it takes use a long time to get through a 30-minute lecture. Sometimes days. Lots of pauses to ask a question, summarize a point, look something up somewhere, etc. Engaged.

 

So I have modeled this, taught it, and we have practiced it together. And I have hoped that they have seen the value of it. When my kids use video instruction on their own, I tend to interact with them when they have finished watching the video lecture which of course drives their level of personal interaction. They know that they have to engage, but sadly they also know that they don't have to engage completely - all the time, every single second. It's a time constraint thing for me; I can't sit next to them the whole time for every video lesson. So sometimes we work together, and sometimes they work on their own. It's just the way it is; I have no real way of knowing if they are engaging at the level that I am modeling on their own. They know that they are going to be responsible for the material, the general content. But this "wasting time" to look something up on their own; I didn't know for sure that they would ever embrace that one on their own. Until this week.

 

My older ds, an eleventh grader, was watching lectures in his American Government course this week. I was downstairs pulling pages from the printer when he wandered into the room. "Andrew Johnson. Why was he impeached again? What happened? I can't remember. Where are the books on the Presidents, Mom?"

 

In order to make things more accessible as we move from era to era in history, I move the books around in the library downstairs so he didn't know where I had put them. Curious, I asked, "Why do you want to know?"

 

"Oh, I just paused the lecture because the guy was making a point about the impeachment process, and he mentioned Johnson. I can't remember what happened. Do you know where the books are?"

 

I pointed to the shelf and recommended one title over the others in order to make his search more fruitful, and then tried to wander back upstairs without him seeing my oh-my-gosh-I've-have-waited-for-this-moment-for-so-so-long happy-dance.

 

Engaged. Finally completely engaged.

 

Teaching a child to interact with a book is important if he is going to learn from a book.

Teaching a child to learn from a screen is important if he is going to learn from a screen. It's not TV! :001_smile:

 

I am never out of the loop completely. And yes, I agree with the post above. Every once in a while I get a glimpse of the world where they know much more than me. Their speed and ability out-pace my experience. Pure bliss for a life-long learner who is trying to share the passion. :001_smile:

 

Peace,

Janice

[8filltheheart]

About Bloom's Taxonomy~ I think the idea is to have a student move through all levels of the taxonomy. There is a place for simple recall that relies on knowledge and comprehension questions, as there is a place for the critical thinking of analysis and synthesis. I am not sure I agree with you that DVD programs equal passive learning. If critical thinking can be defined as reflecting on new information (no matter the source) and applying it to old beliefs or concepts, essential evaluating ideas, then I do believe students are capable of this without parents being so actively involved.

 

The question of when a student is capable of evaluation and self-evaluation is an important one. I would not leave my six year old alone with a DVD "learning" program and expect her to learn well; however, I do expect my 12 year old to be moving in this direction as a more independent learner.

 

 

That is not an accurate depiction of the hierarchy of learning nor is the ability to engage in critical analysis of self-interpretation a skill that children (or even adults) are capable of on their own.

 

It takes interaction and challenges to initial interpretation to move up the hierarchy, otherwise learning is limited to comprehension level of initial exposure.

 

 

ETA: I was just reading the high school board and a post by Karen in CO jumped out as a perfect example of moving up the hierarchy (though that is not what she is even meaning to be talking about and her analysis only goes 1/2 way up the pyramid.....not even to evaluation). But, her description is a real example of what interaction does to improve actual learning. (I hope she doesn't mind me using her post as an example!) http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1168325#poststop written by Karen in CO I did learn a few things along the way. In order to explain a math concept, I must not only know how to do the problem, I must also really understand the concept. Even if I understand the concept, I may not be able to explain it to my child so that he can understand it. No math book, computer program or video can replace actually understanding the problem.

Edited August 29, 2009 by 8FillTheHeart

[MIch elle]

It's SO wrong in my book. Or they should be independent learners - BULL!

 

I agree with you Momof7!!

[Janice in NJ]

Based on our experience, I can say with confidence that none of my kids have become self-educators in all areas of study by any age. At least not yet (ages 12, 14, and 16). They certainly excel at their passions. But we have found face-to-face mentoring to be especially necessary in those areas. Especially necessary. And beyond the level of instruction that either my husband or I could provide; they need master teachers in those areas.

 

So I do not doubt completely that it can happen. There are just too many voices that confidently claim that their children are excelling by self-educating completely without anyone's help. So I do not doubt the existence of a black swan just because I have never seen one. :001_smile:

 

I just don't think that it's best for the homeschooling movement in general to encourage parents to lean on that model too strongly for every child for every subject for every year of high school. My high-schoolers need plenty of accountability and face-to-face instruction. I think that too many parents waste precious time when their kids are younger because they believe that their child's education will be driven by the child in high school. I've spent too much time talking to parents of high school aged children to think that our experience is unique. Just like adults, kids need people to learn - someone to toss ideas around with; someone to answer crucial questions; someone to put you back on-task so you don't get complacent.

 

I spent many, many hours of my children's elementary years studying the areas of the curriculum that I felt most ill-equipped to teach at the high school level. For us it was time well spent. A huge investment that I am glad that I made. :001_smile:

 

So I don't completely doubt the existence of a black swan; I've heard about them although I've never personally met one. But so far, induction has failed to produce a contradiction in MY experience, so I have to go with my gut: I don't personally know anyone who doesn't need a person to provide a leg-up in some area of their life once in a while. It's more efficient than trying to figure things out on your own all of the time. So I homeschool under that assumption; it's working well.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

[angela in ohio]

Direct interaction/teaching will ultimately reap greater rewards in the long-term understanding and ownership of material being studied.

 

 

As you can tell from my signature, I agree wholeheartedly. I spend a lot of time pleading with homeschoolers IRL not to accept the usual homeschool rhetoric and to be actively involved in their children's learning.

[8filltheheart]

 

Someone else here mentioned that one cannot impart knowledge they don't have. That might be true, but many people learn far more than what any teacher they come across imparts on them. If they didn't, I think we would all be in trouble because frankly teachers aren't often all that special when it comes to the depth of their knowledge. I aim to teach my kids the tools they need to find the information they need/want. Basically I see it as learning how to learn rather than imparting specific pieces of information on them.

 

"Imparting information" to a student is not moving up the hierarchy of learning. That is the equivalent of the student passively listening to a lecture. Higher levels of learning require active engagement, exploration, defense of interpretation, etc. Nor is learning information a higher level cognitive skill. Information is also a knowledge base.

 

It is how knowledge/information is processed, applied, dissected, compared/contrasted, used to form unique insights, etc.

 

Oh well......I have spent too much time on this! Really, it is all about engaging a student in a challenging way that confronts their initial interpretation of facts/info and guides them deeper....beyond the surface and replication.

[Guest txmusicmom]

Its actually very interesting and I do agree with the concept. However, if you can't do it the most ideal way, then is it really okay to just throw your hands up and put kids back in the system? What if you can't afford a private tutor? There are so many reasons to homeschool, that it may still be the best situation even if it isn't perfect.

Interestingly enough, many high schools are using on-line learning for their classes these days - so sending your kids back to school because you can't sit with them one on one through everything and instead use an on-line or dvd program isn't the solution. One private school we looked at had their entire HS program on-line.

Ideal is different than best for your situation. But I'm still new and probably naive.

 

Good thoughts. It's so easy to think there is one ideal way to homeschool. IMO there is not. Each child, family situation, and parent is different. I'm old , still learning , but do have 2 in college and 2 more in the grammar staage. I think I've come full circle.

 

The question of when a student is capable of evaluation and self-evaluation is an important one. I would not leave my six year old alone with a DVD "learning" program and expect her to learn well; however, I do expect my 12 year old to be moving in this direction as a more independent learner.

 

There is a point when a student's knowledge exceeds your own. This doesn't mean that I do not teach. My roll changes to a facilitator and at best a tutor.

 

The issue you raise about on line learning is an interesting one. Many, many classes are being taught on line, and universities are creating hybrid classes using internet technology for discussion groups. But some of the on line learning I have seen directed at younger students are nothing more than test prep sites with multiple choice questions and little application of what is learned.

 

I agree. Each child is different. My goal was/is to raise learners. As a college online instructor ;), I can tell you I use many different mediums to connect with my students. The majority of them don't have good learning or study skills. They have been spoon fed and don't know how to think.

I taught in the classroom ( as adjunct) before online. I have a child now in college that REALLY enjoyed the classroom of dual credit. Yet she also did well in online classes. I've noticed in my house, if the child is really interested in something, they can learn all kinds of things. If they are less motivated, it takes more interaction with me.

 

Based on our experience, I can say with confidence that none of my kids have become self-educators in all areas of study by any age. At least not yet (ages 12, 14, and 16). They certainly excel at their passions. But we have found face-to-face mentoring to be especially necessary in those areas. Especially necessary. And beyond the level of instruction that either my husband or I could provide; they need master teachers in those areas.

 

So I do not doubt completely that it can happen. There are just too many voices that confidently claim that their children are excelling by self-educating completely without anyone's help. So I do not doubt the existence of a black swan just because I have never seen one. :001_smile:

 

I just don't think that it's best for the homeschooling movement in general to encourage parents to lean on that model too strongly for every child for every subject for every year of high school. My high-schoolers need plenty of accountability and face-to-face instruction. I think that too many parents waste precious time when their kids are younger because they believe that their child's education will be driven by the child in high school. I've spent too much time talking to parents of high school aged children to think that our experience is unique. Just like adults, kids need people to learn - someone to toss ideas around with; someone to answer crucial questions; someone to put you back on-task so you don't get complacent.

:001_smile:

 

 

 

I do have one self- learner. He did much of his high school on his own. Early high school, he took a writing class. It was just the catalyst he needed. Now he's a writer. How did that happen? By God's grace! Plus he finally got to the age where he *had something to say* . He wrote a book on his own his senior year. He hated writing in earlier grades. "Describe the clown" drove him nuts! hee hee. His last 2 years he was doing dual credit as well as WVWW at home. I don't want you to think he's superkid. He's not.- well he is to me. It just fit his personality, giftings and leanings. I don't share this to gloat at all but more to say sometimes it has a LOT to do with the bend of the child. I don't take credit- I say look what God did. I did provide the foundation but after that..........

 

One other child really needs teacher interaction especially in subjects she finds difficult or lacks internal motivation for. :D She did 30 hours dual credit ( by special permission- her last semster she did 14 hours) with a 4.0.

 

My #3 is totally different and #4 is a little sponge but has his subjects where he's a reluctant learner at the moment.

 

All this to say- it looks different IMO with every child and every family . THAT is not to say that is an excuse to *do nothing* or next to nothing.

But there is a fine line there. I'm not always sure where it is, but I try to offer grace to those who do it different than I , because there are some that make me feel lazy in my approach.

 

Sorry so long. Blessings to you all!

[HollyinNNV]

Mom of 7-

I could not agree more! My favorite phrase is, "kids don't know what they don't know." As a teacher, I often find myself working through the process of figuring out what my kids do not know. Maybe they read a history passage but didn't comprehend how that selection fits into the broader category of history they are studying. Or, as was the case a couple of days ago, my child needed help figuring out the difference between kingdom, principality, state, and republic (The Prince). Are these terms synonymous? Are all republic states, but not all states republics? In high school biology dh and I found that the addition of one small word could totally change the meaning of a essay question answer. Do students understand that EVERY word counts? (precision vs accuracy-nuff said!)

 

Holly

[Colleen in NS]

Using videos and texts as teaching tools that lead to direct teacher interaction vs. single dimension education (screen/book) will help lead children to an education beyond the knowledge level base.

 

I think I hear the spirit of what you are saying - don't rely on books/videos to teach material. Interact with your kids and lead them through learning processes.

 

I pointed to the shelf and recommended one title over the others in order to make his search more fruitful, and then tried to wander back upstairs without him seeing my oh-my-gosh-I've-have-waited-for-this-moment-for-so-so-long happy-dance.

 

Engaged. Finally completely engaged.

 

:hurray::hurray::hurray:

 

If a person is motivated to learn something they will probably remember a lot more of it. If they choose to learn it, rather than are told what they have to learn, that also will probably lead to deeper knowledge.

 

:iagree: And why I agree is below your next quote.

 

My husband and I watch NOVA religiously. We often spend hours talking about it afterwords. And I often go and read more books on the topics. I do feel I get a lot more out of it after we talk. But frankly, we never did any of that in school. I find a lot more opportunity for that now. I guess I have learned not to equate that sort of thing with school. Maybe I had a crappy school experience.

 

So did I. And I just want to speak up a bit about myself (and maybe for others who are silent but reading this thread)

 

I understand the the idea of interacting, leading kids through this hierarchy, not relying on videos/books alone - I try to do that here. But I know that for myself and my family, we will not be able to "interact" as intensely or to the depth as some other families might be able to, simply because of dh's and my own experiences in school.

 

But I'm still doing the very best I can, with the resources and tools *I* have, to give my kids the best education I can. I read and study, am learning some new writing skills for myself, am making my way slowly through content material, am learning Latin, logic, grammar, and so on.

 

And I don't feel that now is the time for me to go find other tutors to do this stuff with my kids, if I can't do it as deeply at these ages (this thread is on the K-8 board, so I assume it's meant for parents of those graded kids). That can come in high school, after I've taught them some basic self-learning skills I believe will be useful to them. It's the basic and intermediate learning skills I am concentrating on now (with lots of interaction and leading to better understanding - that is incorporated into everyday life as I recognize opportunities). I do aim for self-education at some point - who knows if that will come in 9th, 12th or even a bit beyond (although Janice's post about her son is encouraging to me!), and I know I'll be a huge interacter still when my kids get to high school. And in high school, I will go find help for the areas I don't think I can adequately lead my kids through this hierarchy in, if I haven't progressed far enough in my own studies by then.

 

So, while I agree with what I perceive to be the basic idea of the OP, I just want to say that I think the leading through this hierarchy is going to look different for everyone because of our experiences, beliefs, and current situations; even if we prioritize things like math and LA. For example, I do care that my kids learn *skills* well, like logic, grammar, writing, math, Latin, and a few other things. And while I care very much that they learn history/science/literature material, I am not as concerned about the depth or the amount that they learn *at the K-8 ages*, as much as I am concerned that they learn *how* to process material, while they are still under my guidance. If we practice the *how* every week, I believe they will be able to go on and process more deeply for the rest of their lives. My kids already surpass me in basic knowledge of some content areas (which, if I had a bad education, probably isn't saying much, but it is better than me, and I consider that an accomplishment). My son is already learning to think through things that I never learned to think through.

 

Sorry so long. Blessings to you all!

 

Thanks for sharing your story - I was encouraged by it.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Colleen in NS

[johnandtinagilbert]

have one on one instruction, immediate feedback, varied learning experiences, and discussions.

Which is possible using a variety of mediums as tools, but not without teachers :) It's so nice to be needed (tee hee)!

 

I've noticed in my house, if the child is really interested in something, they can learn all kinds of things. If they are less motivated, it takes more interaction with me.

 

:iagree::iagree: I was just noticing that yesterday. All of the time invested in elementary school has (K-5 or 6) allows for the testing of independence in 7-8th or 9th grade. Giving them their list to check off and their independent learning materials (computer, dvd, books, supplies) doesn't end the process. I still have to meet with them. In some areas (less interested) I have to check daily and we have a talk about what their learning. I often point out what they don't see in patterns or comparisons.

On the other hand, when they are interested, we meet, but they are much more deeply engaged in the conversation and there are fewer "mechanical" inserts via teacher, but more like a conversation between academics.

Independence is the goal (in my home), realizing that independence comes on as adults and we consider high school the testing facility for all we've planted.

I'm all for overseeing independence though!

Edited November 10, 2009 by johnandtinagilbert

[Jennefer@SSA]

I missed this thread the first time around. I am glad that I caught it now. :)

 

I have read through the first half of the responses and look forward to reading through the remainder tonight once kids are in bed.

 

Posts like these are gold mines in my book and what keep me coming back time after time to these boards! :)

[nova mama]

What a great thread! And all the posts I've read have been quite civilized. :D I haven't read the article in the OP, but I agree with the overall sentiment. I am afterschooling--we have been doing science and history WTM-style for the past year. I plan to start homeschooling full-time after Thanksgiving (so excited!!!). Except for Latin instruction (we'll probably study only roots), I'm planning to follow WTM as closely as possible.

 

Having said that, I'd like to speak up for some of the people who are using what are being called the more passive teaching methods. While I plan to do everything myself, for some families, the alternative to videos, tutors, etc. may be a local school that is unsafe or otherwise inadequate. My children are going to a fine school right now and if they had to keep going, it wouldn't be the worst thing. It is award-winning (whatever that's worth), safe, and my children have had all concerned and caring teachers. So I have two great choices. But if my only choices were a BAD school (whatever that means to you) and watching videos at home, I'd probably choose the videos.

 

Thanks everyone for being civil. I am really enjoying this discussion.

Edited November 10, 2009 by nova mama

[DianeJM]

Just wanted to say thanks for this post and also for the responses.

Great to read! For myself, I take it an admonition to strive for excellence in my own home school.

I am just recently realizing my desire to be a learner in this thing as well. Better late than never. I never learned to learn in school either, I just learned how to get by. So this is a whole different ball game for me now. Exciting.

I appreciate being able to access this forum and be encouraged like this.