Can a person be a Christian if they don't believe the Bible?

[WishboneDawn]

What I mean with "pick and choose" is that to understand a given story through interpretive means frees one up to understand any of it that way.

 

Literalism is an interpretive means in itself. I'm not sure I follow that.

Did God mean for us to view the Bible as His Word? If so, it's baffling why He would allow such silly stories to make the cut.

 

Why does the fact that they aren't literally true make them silly?

 

 

It bugs me a little when people say, "Whether or not Jonah actually camped out inside a fish for three actual days does not determine my salvation...it is non-salvific, so it doesn't matter." Both the "salvific" beliefs and these surrounding stories come to us from the same source - The Bible. So, if one believes the stuff that does matter, which came to them by way of the Bible, it begs that one has at least a modicum of regard for the surrounding stories in the Bible. If those are just moral stories, then how can you have faith in the doctrine that has to do with Jesus? How can you be confident that the disciples were not just "telling stories"? How can you say, "Well, these are interesting moral stories in keeping with cultures of the time." to one part of the Bible, but say, "But this stuff about Jesus and what He is and what He means...that is all the imperitive Word!" (I mean general you, BTW, not any particular poster.)

 

I don't think that acknowledging part of the Bible are mythology means they aren't the Word. It simply means a person might accept that God writes in genres other than history. :) One of the most powerful stories in the Bible for me is one I doubt ever really happened, Abraham and Isaac, but that doesn't lessen it's impact and importance.

 

Not thinking a story is historical should NEVER be interpretted as meaning it's "silly" or not imperitive. And putting a story in it's proper historical and cultural context should not mean we get to dismiss it. The passage of time doesn't make myth irrelevent. That's why it's such a powerful and completely not-silly form of communicating truths.

[Lovedtodeath]

This is not in response to the OP, but in response to some other posts about being a Christian led by God without the Bible.

 

We are living in an imperfect world full of sin and controlled by Satan. (1 John 2:17, 5:19, Revelation 12:7-12, Ephesians 2:2) We are imperfect and our reasoning cannot be trusted, neither can our hearts. (Proverbs 3:5, Jer 17:9) We are told to draw close to God, (James 4:8) to have a deep relationship with him, to lean on His way and not our own understanding. This requires two way communication. We talk to God through prayer. We listen to God by reading his words to us in the scriptures. He no longer communicates through miracles, dreams, or other humans. (1 Cor 13:8) In order to have two way communication we need to read the scriptures. In order to draw closer to him, we need to understand the scriptures, and believe the scriptures.

 

I will add scriptural references in a minute.

Edited August 23, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[justamouse]

That does not, however, mean that your viewpoint of what the Bible say is correct (or mine) ...and it's not about showing the Bible is "wrong". I don't believe the Bible is "wrong"...I believe that in ancient times people did not record history in the same way we do today, and that archetypal stories were used as teaching, which is in line with other ancient texts. That doesn't mean that I am not a Christian, or that I don't believe in what the Bible stands for and teaches.

 

This is pretty much exactly the way I believe.

 

Well, it goes something like this.

 

The comoving distance from the Earth to the edge of the visible universe is about 46.5 gigalight-years in any direction; this is the comoving radius of the observable universe. This is larger than the age of the universe dictated by the cosmic background radiation; see size of the universe: misconceptions for why this is possible.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-year

 

Granted, wiki may not be the best resource, but it works in this instance.

 

For us to even SEE the light from the edge of the universe, the earth has to be as old as the light seen--or we would not be seeing it. LYs are a measure of distance, but the time they take to get to us is the same.

 

So, for a person to say they believe in a young earth, they are saying that all of the other galaxies out there that have been found and the science that shows us these galaxies and stars are frauds.

 

Personally, I don't like denominations and religions. I think they do exactly the opposite of what Christ wanted us to do..to love eachother. Loving people you disagree with is hard work. Denominations separate and judge. Sure, they all SAY they love eachother, but we all know that behind closed doors they think everyone else has it wrong and they are right. The exact opposite of what Christ called us to.

 

And, I haven't told anyone they weren't a Christian because they believe opposite of me. I was just sharing some of what I've been reading.

Edited August 23, 2009 by justamouse

[Lovedtodeath]

This is pretty much exactly the way I believe.

 

Well, it goes something like this.

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-year

 

Granted, wiki may not be the best resource, but it works in this instance.

 

For us to even SEE the light from the edge of the universe, the earth has to be as old as the light seen--or we would not be seeing it. LYs are a measure of distance, but the time they take to get to us is the same.

 

So, for a person to say they believe in a young earth, they are saying that all of the other galaxies out there that have been found and the science that shows us these galaxies and stars are frauds.

 

Personally, I don't like denominations and religions. I think they do exactly the opposite of what Christ wanted us to do..to love eachother. Loving people you disagree with is hard work. Denominations separate and judge. Sure, they all SAY they love eachother, but we all know that behind closed doors they think everyone else has it wrong and they are right. The exact opposite of what Christ called us to.

I don't believe in YE, but it seems to me that the rest of the universe could exist before the earth was created, or at least before the first day of creation began.

[Ginevra]

Why does the fact that they aren't literally true make them silly?

 

 

They don't stand up to logic. Why have stories that *supposedly* explain something about the world that are ridiculous? Why have The Tower of Babble to explain language differences? Not to mention, God as portrayed in most OT stories leaves a lot to be desired. Not happy with how The Mankind Project is turning out? Just drown them all. Why is this world so wicked and broken? Eve ate the fruit, stupid girl. And I'm pretty amazed that Abraham and Isaac is one of your favorites, because that is one that I find repugnant.

 

Anyway...don't feel you need to wear yourself out with me. You've raised good points for me to think about. :)

[elw_miller]

Or they believe some of it, but not all. Or they are unsure. Or they believe in the example of Christ, but not the veracity of, say, literal creation or The Great Flood.

 

The thread on "We're all Hindus..." made me wonder what the different views of this would be.

 

What would you say of someone who wants to/purposes to be a Christian, but just doesn't believe a lot of the Bible?

 

I think yes. There is no one way to be a mom. There is no one way to be a homeschooler. I think a Christian could be loosely read as "one who follows Christ". This could be someone who tries to live humbly and give charitably of their possessions and in good works, turns the other cheek, stands up for what is right and good, and tries to live intentionally following Jesus' teachings and wisdom from the Bible. I think this could even include those who do not believe in anything divine.

 

I also do not think the Bible has to be read literally in order for the reader to gain wisdom. I think many passages can be read to best effect if read metaphorically.

 

Let God be the judge as to whether or not someone was true to Him. Just my opinion...

[Lovedtodeath]

 

They don't stand up to logic. Why have stories that *supposedly* explain something about the world that are ridiculous? Why have The Tower of Babble to explain language differences? Not to mention, God as portrayed in most OT stories leaves a lot to be desired. Not happy with how The Mankind Project is turning out? Just drown them all. Why is this world so wicked and broken? Eve ate the fruit, stupid girl. And I'm pretty amazed that Abraham and Isaac is one of your favorites, because that is one that I find repugnant.

I have thought the same things in the past. I have learned more about how and why things occured and about God's love and justice, in both the OT and the NT. I believe those stories are literally true, and I have come to peace with it. I hope one day that you can too.

[Ginevra]

I believe those stories are literally true, and I have come to peace with it. I hope one day that you can too.

 

Eh. One can hope. :001_smile:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

They don't stand up to logic. Why have stories that *supposedly* explain something about the world that are ridiculous? Why have The Tower of Babble to explain language differences? Not to mention, God as portrayed in most OT stories leaves a lot to be desired. Not happy with how The Mankind Project is turning out? Just drown them all. Why is this world so wicked and broken? Eve ate the fruit, stupid girl. And I'm pretty amazed that Abraham and Isaac is one of your favorites, because that is one that I find repugnant.

 

Anyway...don't feel you need to wear yourself out with me. You've raised good points for me to think about. :)

 

 

Yes but many of these stories could be seen a metaphorically true or as imparting wisdom or important teachings without being literally true. I think it is also important to take into consideration the mindset and context of those who wrote these stories from thousands of years ago as many Biblical scholars do. After all, it was a different world in many, not all, respects back then.

[Lovedtodeath]

While it may be true that some Christians did not have their own copy of the Bible in times past, they were instructed by ones who were taught by Jesus personally. They were warned that after these ones were gone, trouble would arise. The only way we have of being instructed by these ones personally is by reading their letters.

 

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7) (Acts 20:29, 30, 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:1-3; Jude 3, 4,2 Timothy 4:3, 4, Matthew 13:24-43, 1 Timothy 1:6.

Many of the above scriptures are most easily understood in the Jerusalem Bible.

[Dirtroad]

In the UK, such an interpretation would you put you in the minority, I think.

 

Laura

 

This is why UK is considered a modern mission field.

[Dirtroad]

They don't stand up to logic. Why have stories that *supposedly* explain something about the world that are ridiculous? Why have The Tower of Babble to explain language differences? Not to mention, God as portrayed in most OT stories leaves a lot to be desired. Not happy with how The Mankind Project is turning out? Just drown them all. Why is this world so wicked and broken? Eve ate the fruit, stupid girl. And I'm pretty amazed that Abraham and Isaac is one of your favorites, because that is one that I find repugnant.

 

Anyway...don't feel you need to wear yourself out with me. You've raised good points for me to think about. :)

 

Eve ate the fruit.... it is Eve's desire to be LIKE GOD & to have his wisdom and knowledge (not that she wanted a snack).

 

BABEL.... God made the world & man grew. As man became better at things, he wanted to be even greater. In their quest to conquer the heavens and BE LIKE GOD... they began the tower to reach & rule.... IF God made the world, he can confuse it. The people (due to sudden language changes) were divided & therefor WEAKENED & humbled.

 

Abraham had faith that GOD would provide the necessary means for the sacrifice. He submitted but he understood that God had promised him much and it all was to come through the children of Isaac. He was a man of TRUST & FAITH in God. We don't have that kind of faith and apply our modern protect & suspect mentality to the verses. There are many hints in Abrahams vocabulary that tell us what he is thinking. So, Abraham had 2 choices... trust Gods word which had been true to him so far... or not do as he was asked & think God a liar. He trusted God b/c he knew Isaac would be spared.

 

Isaac also had faith & obeyed his father. He was not a little boy.. he could have resisted. He saw God as blessing Abraham & he saw Abraham's FAITH in God. He had great models of behavior. NOW.... in this story.... the father is willing to GIVE UP his son and the son willing to submit to his father's will in faith & obedience.... hmmm, sounds like another critical event to the CHRISTIAN faith.

 

Belly of the fish... God made the fish & he can control the fish. Jonah was defiant & running away from his job. God commanded the seas & the fish & Jonah was coughed up on the shore... right back where he needed to be. Now, if you CAN believe God made the world.... God resurrected Christ... that God produces miracles & judgements... why is a giant fish story such a stretch? He made it... then He sure can manage it & control it.;)

Edited August 23, 2009 by Dirtroad

[Ginevra]

Dirtroad, I do most often enjoy your posts, so I don't want to seem contentious. But I have many, almost endless logical problems with the story of the Fall (and others). Even if we ignore the literal story completely and just say the point is to not try to be like God, I still think the story of the Fall is irrational.

 

Adam and Eve were originally morally innocent, since they had no knowledge of good and evil. Like a toddler that streaks through the house naked after a bath, they had no sense of shame. They were ignorant that there was "being bad". Yet somehow, God would rest the spiritual fate of the human race on whether or not they would obey, when they couldn't have really understood "disobey" in the first place. Eve was deceived but that was obvious - as obvious as placing a candy before a toddler and leaving them with the directive not to eat it.

 

At minimum, this story is supposed to explain why we live in a broken world. Why we all long for utopia and yet cannot have it. But it does this so poorly...who can believe it? It's full of logical errors. Didn't God know what would happen? Why did God "walk" around looking for Adam? Didn't He know where He was? What was the purpose of The Tree of Life and The Tree of Knowledge if it wasn't meant for human kind? Why does God suddenly become "worried" and talk amongst himselves ;) about how they have to be locked out of Eden because they might eat from the Tree of Life and live forever and be like the gods! Good thing they didn't try that fruit first! Oy, the mess that would have caused.

 

Similar thing with Tower of Babel. Why would God be "worried" that mankind was building a tower into the heavens? He should have laughed himself silly! This shows, I think, how the culture at the time thought Heaven was just up there, past the clouds. And for God to be the one who "confused languages", which personally, I read as "created divisions and prejudices" does not seem in the nature of the God I serve.

 

About Abraham - we lock up people who think God told them to kill their children. Again, why would God need to see if His servant is willing to kill their child for Him? This really hits home for me...long story short, someone who told me after I had lost my daughter that God takes whatever you love more than Him. :crying: In reading Abe/Isaac, it's not hard to see how they would say so. That is not the God I serve.

 

Now, if you CAN believe God made the world.... God resurrected Christ... that God produces miracles & judgements... why is a giant fish story such a stretch? He made it... then He sure can manage it & control it.;)

 

I concede this is a fair point. FWIW, this is not one of the stories that matters to me much, but you have a good point anyway.

[Erica in PA]

Or they believe some of it, but not all. Or they are unsure. Or they believe in the example of Christ, but not the veracity of, say, literal creation or The Great Flood.

 

The thread on "We're all Hindus..." made me wonder what the different views of this would be.

 

What would you say of someone who wants to/purposes to be a Christian, but just doesn't believe a lot of the Bible?

 

I don't think there would be much point in being a follower of Christ if one doesn't believe the book that tells us about Him. The Bible is the only real source of information about Jesus Christ, and if a person thinks that book is full of untruths and illogical thinking, I can't see how that person would come to have a saving faith in Jesus Christ, the main character in that book. If a person doesn't believe this part, or this part, or this part... why believe the part about Jesus?

[Veritaserum]

I don't think there would be much point in being a follower of Christ if one doesn't believe the book that tells us about Him. The Bible is the only real source of information about Jesus Christ, and if a person thinks that book is full of untruths and illogical thinking, I can't see how that person would come to have a saving faith in Jesus Christ, the main character in that book. If a person doesn't believe this part, or this part, or this part... why believe the part about Jesus?

 

It really doesn't have to be "all or nothing" the way some people seem to think. I take some of the stories included in the Bible (which was compiled by men) with a grain of salt. That does not mean that I do the same with the passages about Christ and His ministry. Really, this isn't so hard to understand. :tongue_smilie: There are plenty of Christians (yes, I will use that word ;)) who do not believe that the Bible is infallible and that it is meant to be taken 100% literally. :)

[Dirtroad]

Quill,

The person who said your child was taken b/c of your loving your daughter to much was not speaking with the words & compassion of Christ. It was a superstitious and judgemental tongue. There is a point when Jesus is asked why a person was born blind.... it was NOT because of the parents! This person was being mean to you. It is heartbreaking.

 

We do not believe God speaks to people and we do not believe (as a culture) that HE is involved or if he even exists... of course, we may consider locking up a parent.

 

The test for Abraham was preparing & teaching us about CHRIST. Abraham didn't have to give up his son... but GOD DID.

 

I have questions about Garden of Eden. I do not doubt the serpant manipulating the situation to get Eve longing to know more, be more like God, and just take a teeny weeny little bite. I can see that as possible b/c even the most innocent child can be talked into something. My issue is why was the desire there if God made us? He is infallible... how did this goof up? Make sense? I can't answer it & just accept it in faith & one day hope to find out more!

 

My knowledge is not enough. I must either reject it completely (which means I reject the concept of original sin & therefore the need for CHRIST to die for my sin).... or I must step out on FAITH and accept that I can't answer it all. Faith & logic can really butt heads.

 

I think you can "think" until your head hurts. If you really like to chew on things from the logical perspective... I think you need to read the writings on JOHN CALVIN. I heard a great author say that "he was the most logical person that ever exisited".

 

I wish I could help more. I am sorry I can't answer it all.

[PinkInTheBlue]

Eh. One can hope. :001_smile:

 

Not happening here either. I refuse to believe God directed people to go in and murder all the old, young, men, women, children, etc of a country just because he's decided that's the land for His people.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Carmen, I read this recently that addressed this: http://www.antiochian.org/assets/asset_manager/da42e6049df1d08bff1865c1ac19e759.pdf ... really good article.

Thanks! I have three to read now. :D

[Lovedtodeath]

Personally, I don't like denominations and religions. I think they do exactly the opposite of what Christ wanted us to do..to love eachother. Loving people you disagree with is hard work. Denominations separate and judge. Sure, they all SAY they love eachother, but we all know that behind closed doors they think everyone else has it wrong and they are right. The exact opposite of what Christ called us to.

Jesus doesn't like denominations either. But they are here and so unfortunately, we must choose one. Yes, he told us to love each other, but he also said this: "Why, then , do you call me 'Lord! Lord!' but do not do the things I say?" Luke 6:46

and Matthew 7:21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' see also Matthew 24:45-51, Mark 7:6,7 and I also noticed in the illustration of the wheat and the weeds, that the weeds were thrown out.

 

Then there are scriptures which Christ was directing his congregation to write: "Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him." 2 John 9, 10.

 

2 Timothy 3:2,5 Men will be ... having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.

 

"For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge." Romans 10:2;

 

see also 2 Timothy 2:16-18, 2 Peter 2:1,3; Acts 20:30; 2 Corinthians 11:14,15

 

The purpose of this post is not to be judgemental#170 There are many members of this board that seem to be sincerely searching for God, even if they have not yet found Him. There are others that are sure of their faith and their relationship and they have different explanations for their actions and beliefs, but truly and sincerely do their best. No human alive can judge hearts and know which individuals will turn out acceptable to God and which won't.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Dirtroad]

Denominations are good. I get tired of some unnecessary divisions but most bother folks "on the outside" more than the actual people in church.

 

They are good in this respect... the protect MAN from himself. Remember Luther set out to influence the catholic church to notice & change some areas that he felt had been corrupted or that the word of God had been neglected/ignored. The Catholic church ruled the world in a respect and did not like being challenged by a nobody monk.

 

Regardless of being Catholic or not, these issues created a big debate & the Catholic church KICKED LUTHER OUT. He was protected & never killed.... but the issues he brought forth grew.

 

Another issue to consider is that people learned to READ FOR THEMSELVES and stopped listening to strangers tell them what the Bible said (and often very much in error or intentional misrepresentation). As people could read the word and began to realize the changes that started with Luther.... the Christian world changed.

 

I think "combing out fleas" in scripture can lead to divisions that are unnecessary.... I also think ignorance of the scripture leads to divisions (yes, by the churched). However, when refering to the days of ONE CHURCH led by one fallible, prone to error MAN with unlimited power.... I prefer today!

 

This isn't knocking Catholics... no issue with that at all. It could be any group... they were just the ones who were in the debate with Luther in that age. Just pointing out where changes came & how with a church may go astray... atleast denominations prevent the entire world from going in the same direction.

[justamouse]

Jesus doesn't like denominations either. But they are here and so unfortunately, we must choose one. Yes, he told us to love each other, but he also said this: "Why, then , do you call me 'Lord! Lord!' but do not do the things I say?" Luke 6:46

and Matthew 7:21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' see also Matthew 24:45-51, Mark 7:6,7 and I also noticed in the illustration of the wheat and the weeds, that the weeds were thrown out.

 

Then there are scriptures which Christ was directing his congregation to write: "Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him." 2 John 9, 10.

 

2 Timothy 3:2,5 Men will be ... having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.

 

"For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge." Romans 10:2;

 

see also 2 Timothy 2:16-18, 2 Peter 2:1,3; Acts 20:30; 2 Corinthians 11:14,15

 

The purpose of this post is not to be judgemental#170 There are many members of this board that seem to be sincerely searching for God, even if they have not yet found Him. There are others that are sure of their faith and their relationship and they have different explanations for their actions and beliefs, but truly and sincerely do their best. No human alive can judge hearts and know which individuals will turn out acceptable to God and which won't.

 

Are you implying that I deny the power of God, and giving scripture to back up your claim?

 

re; Denominations-- they are here, and NO, I don't HAVE to chose one. Man makes all kinds of bad things, doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I did the denomination thing for over 30 years, and I'm done with it. I love the PEOPLE of those churches, but I refuse to be made to swallow a horse pill of rules and regulations to get the blessing of men. Same reason I homeschool.

 

Jesus didn't have a congregation that he ministered to every Sunday in one spot. He taught the disciples so they could go plant churches. The churches never were congregations, they were in houses. Paul took no money so as to not be a burden to the church. THAT is the church of Acts, and it is happening here in the US and all over the world. They're called house churches, and some live in community. They do not have a building, they share a meal at someone's house. They are growing exponentially.

 

 

http://www.ptmin.org/

[Lovedtodeath]

Are you implying that I deny the power of God, and giving scripture to back up your claim? Um. No. I was honestly shocked to read this question. I understand being fed up with organized religion today. I have been there. I am really struggling to answer this without seeming to be arguing with you. I had no idea that home church was anything that you had in mind.

 

re; Denominations-- they are here, and NO, I don't HAVE to chose one. Man makes all kinds of bad things, doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I did the denomination thing for over 30 years, and I'm done with it. I love the PEOPLE of those churches, but I refuse to be made to swallow a horse pill of rules and regulations to get the blessing of men. Same reason I homeschool.

 

Jesus didn't have a congregation that he ministered to every Sunday in one spot. He taught the disciples so they could go plant churches. The churches never were congregations, they were in houses. Paul took no money so as to not be a burden to the church. I know that there is at least one worldwide religious organization that is run by volunteers (no paid ministers/clergy/book keepers/pianists/or even janitors) and does not require money from anyone. THAT is the church of Acts, and it is happening here in the US and all over the world. They're called house churches, and some live in community. They do not have a building, they share a meal at someone's house. They are growing exponentially. In the book of Acts, the Christian congregation was organized. One group of men made a decision and dispatched it to the other congregations. This, along with other scriptures adjusted my thinking and led me to the choice that I have made. 1 Corinthians 1:10; Matthew 28:19,20; Revelation 7:9 These are still some of the key scriptures that continue to build my faith in my chosen religion.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Denominations are good. Luther set out to influence the catholic church to notice & change some areas that he felt had been corrupted or that the word of God had been neglected/ignored. The Catholic church ruled the world in a respect and did not like being challenged by a nobody monk.

As a restorationist I definitely agree that many honest hearted men seeking the truth started denominations and brought us more light.

[Elaine]

Tara, that was a really beautiful post. Here's the difficulty for me:

 

 

 

I do want to know what the bolts are made of because it looks like the ship won't hold. I don't know how to believe there really is ship there when it didn't hold me up before. Maybe I'm hallucinating that there is a ship because I've been half-drowned for too long.

 

Your post resonates with me. A lot.

 

I had what a good friend of mine calls a crisis of belief this past year. Everything that I thought that I knew, everything that I once held to be true and right, suddenly went -POOF-! And there I stood.

 

Defeated.

 

Heartbroken.

 

Sad and miserable beyond words.

 

I have been slowly crawling out from the wreckage, but it has been so hard, half-drowned is the perfect way to explain it. Today in church our pastor was in Mark 2, the story of Jesus calming the seas. The disciples had no reason to fear because Jesus had given them His command of, "Let's go to the other side." His command was His promise. He didn't say, "Let's go to the middle of the lake and be drowned in the sea."

 

That spoke to me because I was there last year in that boat saying, "Don't you care, God, don't you see what is happening?" And there was silence. And I was done with God. But today I was reminded through the message that even though I am still on the sea out in the boat and it is still hard, I have His promise to get to the other side.

 

I don't know if this means anything to you, and maybe I am way off base, but I just wanted you to know that I get it. I know what you are feeling, sometimes we just need to know the why. We may never get it, that's where faith comes in. I need to remember that, too.

[Erica in PA]

It really doesn't have to be "all or nothing" the way some people seem to think. I take some of the stories included in the Bible (which was compiled by men) with a grain of salt. That does not mean that I do the same with the passages about Christ and His ministry. Really, this isn't so hard to understand. :tongue_smilie: There are plenty of Christians (yes, I will use that word ;)) who do not believe that the Bible is infallible and that it is meant to be taken 100% literally. :)

 

I'm not saying that a person has to take all of the Bible literally to be a Christian. However, I don't see the logic in accepting just the parts about Christ. There are plenty of things to be skeptical about in those passages as well, if a person is judging by what they have observed to be scientific, provable fact. The Bible says that Jesus made people who died alive again... that he used spit mixed with mud to make blind people see... that he could walk on the top of water...that he died, and three days later came alive again. None of us has ever seen anything like that happen. If all of those things can be accepted as true, why not the other parts that may seem unbelievable?

 

Imo, the person who has so little faith in God's one direct revelation to mankind, and believes so deeply in his own ability to reason out what is truth and what is not-- even from God's own Word, that person has it backward: it is God and His Word that is infalliable, and human wisdom that is flawed.

[savedbygrace]

Short and sweet...NO!

 

God is the author of the Bible. If you don't believe His word how can you believe and trust Him? That is what being a Christian is all about. The Bible is our guide to live the Christian life!

[WishboneDawn]

And I'm pretty amazed that Abraham and Isaac is one of your favorites, because that is one that I find repugnant.

 

It's partly because I read Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling which is a reflection on that story about the unreasonableness of faith and denial of despair. Great stuff. It's also a story that defines what God does not demand. It was probably written at a time when there was child sacrifice in other religions so here's a tale that draws a line in the sand. God demands obedience but, in the end, he does not demand we murder our children. God is not the lusting, grasping deity that many others of the time were.

[WishboneDawn]

They don't stand up to logic. Why have stories that *supposedly* explain something about the world that are ridiculous? Why have The Tower of Babble to explain language differences?

 

Because the ridiculous is often the best way to make those points. The proof is in the pudding. It's the fables and myths of the world that endure the centuries. It's the fantastical that authors often turn to to tell us about ourselves. When we want to demonstrate morals to children we present them with talking animals like Aesop. Logic doesn't really have much to do with it. When HAS it had much to do with the realities of human feelings and behaviour?

 

The Tower of Babel is about more then languages though. It's also about the conceit of people reaching beyond their place or attempting to rival God. The dog on the bridge with the bone retold in grander form. A very basic and important truth about greed that's not silly and has little to de with logic.

[WishboneDawn]

 

Adam and Eve were originally morally innocent, since they had no knowledge of good and evil. Like a toddler that streaks through the house naked after a bath, they had no sense of shame. They were ignorant that there was "being bad". Yet somehow, God would rest the spiritual fate of the human race on whether or not they would obey, when they couldn't have really understood "disobey" in the first place. Eve was deceived but that was obvious - as obvious as placing a candy before a toddler and leaving them with the directive not to eat it.

 

At minimum, this story is supposed to explain why we live in a broken world.

 

It's also good at making the point that human do bad things through their own choice. That we pick our own apples in life and that we are ALL, no matter how innocent or good we think ourselves, capable of that.

 

 

 

...which personally, I read as...

 

I think we're often at a disadvantage as moderns. We read these stories in a modern context where we see the awfullness of a God that condemns people to work and painfull childbirth rather then a God that exercises grace by not killing them as he said he would and simply gave them the life ancient listeners knew. We see an awful God demanding the death of a child instead of a God that stops the knife from finishing an act many ancient cultures would have seen little wrong with. And we're obsessed with logic and the rational and we apply as if ancient Hebrews would have even given those things a second thought. They really didn't. It's like trying to read Herodotus expecting a modern historian's obsession with accuracy and facts. It misses the point.

 

I think what we bring to scripture personally is really important but I also thinks there's more we can bring. A good commentary, some knowledge of textual and historic criticism, maybe a few Joseph Campbell lectures. :) I guess that's why I like scripture, even the goriest bits, because it's rich and the more you bring to it the more you find there.

[SheilaZ]

Tara, that was a really beautiful post. Here's the difficulty for me:

 

 

 

I do want to know what the bolts are made of because it looks like the ship won't hold. I don't know how to believe there really is ship there when it didn't hold me up before. Maybe I'm hallucinating that there is a ship because I've been half-drowned for too long.

 

That is where faith steps in.

 

In college, I once took a religion class called "Dialogs of Reason and Faith." My professor, a doctor of Christianity, lectured that there are four types of "beliefs."

Reason excludes fatith: Look at this, this is why I don't believe

Reason includes fatih: Look at this, this is why I do believe.

Faith includes reason: I believe, and here's why I believe.

Fatih excludes reason. I believe regardless.

 

It's the last group who are unshakable because faith is not dependant on God providing, explaining how He does things, or even living up to His "end of the bargain."

 

I'm a scientist at heart and training. But my science never interferes with my faith. They are two seperate things.

I see the proof that science provides so I believe the experiment.

But I never seek proof of God. I believe because He told me to. and to answer your first question, I don't believe most of the miracle stories in the bible because I don't need "proof" of God. I see them as parables to teach us faith.

 

So did Jesus raise the dead? Doesn't matter.

How did Moses part the Red Sea? Doesn't matter.

I'm not concerned about what was done in the past. I'm only concerened about what will be done in the future.

 

In my head, only faith matters.

I know that's going to send a whole lot of readers into a tizzy, but their view of my faith...it doesn't affect my faith at all.

Edited August 24, 2009 by SheilaZ

[WishboneDawn]

Short and sweet...NO!

 

God is the author of the Bible. If you don't believe His word how can you believe and trust Him? That is what being a Christian is all about. The Bible is our guide to live the Christian life!

 

Many Christians believe men wrote the Bible. Again, there's nothing in either the Nicean or Apostle's creed that outlines who wrote the Bible and there were Christians before there was a Bible.

 

I can accept that you're talking about the doctrine of a specific church and that you can't belong to that specific church without believing God authored the Bible but the wider history of Christianity doesn't support that as some sort of universal measure.

[Ginevra]

Just popping in to say that many of you spoke to things I would like to follow up on. I don't have time to do that right now. Hopefully, later today. Thanks, everyone for the civility of this thread.

[Dirtroad]

Many Christians believe men wrote the Bible. Again, there's nothing in either the Nicean or Apostle's creed that outlines who wrote the Bible and there were Christians before there was a Bible.

 

I can accept that you're talking about the doctrine of a specific church and that you can't belong to that specific church without believing God authored the Bible but the wider history of Christianity doesn't support that as some sort of universal measure.

 

Men did not write the Bible like they an adventure book or novel. They are not the "authors" or even the mind behind the content.

 

Man held the pencil... God guided the hand, mind & head. There were multiple people writing on the same subject and they have very little to no variation from each other... an impossible feat. Just look at the 4 gospels... they don't contradict each other... but compliment each other. They were NOT written in the same room or after a committee meeting... yet they work together to paint us a incredible account of Christ.

 

They reflect a style that the writer may have had (education and personality influenced)... but NOT the subject & underlying lessons. Not the CORE or heart of the matter.

 

We also assume these people thought of the Bible as we do... very little or only in times of trouble (for most of us). Men put the books together with tremendous care & consideration. They were humbled, well studied scholars and they knew the seriousness of their work as they compiled it all together & rejected some items. They didn't have "just one person picking the verses to compile" b/c the group were able to be a check & balance for each other & not just one man's "version or interpretation".

 

Try getting 10 people to write a story about a subject... none will match &it will not flow together as scripture does. Man only holds the pencil..... (or quill or pen ;)).

[justamouse]

That is where faith steps in.

 

In college, I once took a religion class called "Dialogs of Reason and Faith." My professor, a doctor of Christianity, lectured that there are four types of "beliefs."

Reason excludes fatith: Look at this, this is why I don't believe

Reason includes fatih: Look at this, this is why I do believe.

Faith includes reason: I believe, and here's why I believe.

Fatih excludes reason. I believe regardless.

 

It's the last group who are unshakable because faith is not dependant on God providing, explaining how He does things, or even living up to His "end of the bargain."

 

I'm a scientist at heart and training. But my science never interferes with my faith. They are two seperate things.

I see the proof that science provides so I believe the experiment.

But I never seek proof of God. I believe because He told me to. and to answer your first question, I don't believe most of the miracle stories in the bible because I don't need "proof" of God. I see them as parables to teach us faith.

 

So did Jesus raise the dead? Doesn't matter.

How did Moses part the Red Sea? Doesn't matter.

I'm not concerned about what was done in the past. I'm only concerened about what will be done in the future.

 

In my head, only faith matters.

I know that's going to send a whole lot of readers into a tizzy, but their view of my faith...it doesn't affect my faith at all.

 

YES! This. This is what I am so uneloquently trying to say.

[KingM]

Try getting 10 people to write a story about a subject... none will match &it will not flow together as scripture does.

 

Scripture doesn't match either. Genesis 1: 25-27 says that God created animals, then created man. Genesis 2: 18-19 says that God created man, then created animals. Genesis 1&2 also say that God took different lengths of time to create the Earth, that fowl came from either the water or the earth.

 

This is because these chapters had different authors, with different understandings about the creation story. And this isn't just an isolated example. There are many, many contradictions in the Bible.

 

This doesn't mean the Bible isn't true, but it does not appear to be a literal, blow-by-blow account of actual events.

[PineFarmMom]

.

Edited August 30, 2009 by Texas T

[PineFarmMom]

ALL scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. 2Tim 3:16

[Laura Corin]

This is why UK is considered a modern mission field.

 

...only those who believe in the literal truth of the bible are doing Christianity 'right'? Forgive me, that seems a little presumptuous - can't British Christians be left to make their own decisions?

 

Laura

[KingM]

ALL scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. 2Tim 3:16

 

How about the near pornographic imagery of Song of Solomon? How is this useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness?

 

7:1 How beautiful are thy feet with shoes, O prince's daughter! the joints of thy thighs are like jewels, the work of the hands of a cunning workman.

7:2 Thy navel is like a round goblet, which wanteth not liquor: thy belly is like an heap of wheat set about with lilies.

7:3 Thy two breasts are like two young roes that are twins.

7:4 Thy neck is as a tower of ivory; thine eyes like the fishpools in Heshbon, by the gate of Bathrabbim: thy nose is as the tower of Lebanon which looketh toward Damascus.

7:5 Thine head upon thee is like Carmel, and the hair of thine head like purple; the king is held in the galleries.

7:6How pleasant art thou, O love, for delights! ... Thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine.

7:7 This thy stature is like to a palm tree, and thy breasts to clusters of grapes.

7:8 I said, I will go up to the palm tree, I will take hold of the boughs thereof: now also thy breasts shall be as clusters of the vine, and the smell of thy nose like apples;

 

 

It's beautiful poetry, but it was obviously written by some guy when he was caught up in erotic feelings toward his lover, not when God was directing his hand.

[Lovedtodeath]

How about the near pornographic imagery of Song of Solomon? How is this useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness?

 

 

 

 

It's beautiful poetry, but it was obviously written by some guy when he was caught up in erotic feelings toward his lover, not when God was directing his hand.

 

It is very useful because it shows the deep love and passion that we can have for our lawful mate. It shows us that sex is not a taboo subject or act. It also shows us the value of chastity (loyalty).

[Ginevra]

Faith & logic can really butt heads.

 

 

I don't see why this should be. I know why you would say that and the Bible stories themselves are filled with examples of people being asked to do something that made no logical sense. But, seriously...I don't see why it should take ignoring or forgetting about what can't be answered in order to accept the package deal.

 

I hope this description doesn't inflame anyone; I'm sure it has that potential. But the picture of my "walk of faith" led me to where I felt like an abused wife. And the defenses of "wait and see" what God would do reminded me of people urging an abused wife to stay and work out her relationship. God will turn everything for good any day now....just keep staring at the horseshoe and hope you don't get kicked. I tend to be pragmatic, to be sure. I don't romanticise that everything is going to work together for good one of these days. I hope for it now and then, but there are situations that never make sense, that are never redeemed.

 

To believe in something is to be able to see that it holds up to inquiry. To love is to trust that you will not be harmed. Where are you left if what you believe did not hold up to inquiry? What if you trusted and yet you were harmed?

 

I do think you can think until your head hurts...or explodes. Even a thread like this wears me down after a while because of all the emotional raw spots it digs at - and I started the thread! And I think on the whole this thread has been nicely done.

 

What was my point? I'm sure I had one...:D

 

Tangentially, Dirtroad, the strange thing about the person who said that awful thing to me about God taking what we love the most is that this was a complete stranger. I never saw him before or since. The circumstances were either an extremely remarkable coincidence, or an intentional supernatural event. That event all by itself really threw me. Was he on a mission from God to straighten me out with the horrible truth? Was he on a mission from "the other guy" to completely shred any faith I might have retained? (If so, he managed.) Can a person think they are the mouthpiece of God, look, speak and act that they are, but be there for the other team? I don't know...it gives me chills.

[Ginevra]

Your post resonates with me. A lot.

 

I had what a good friend of mine calls a crisis of belief this past year. Everything that I thought that I knew, everything that I once held to be true and right, suddenly went -POOF-! And there I stood.

 

Defeated.

 

Heartbroken.

 

Sad and miserable beyond words.

 

I have been slowly crawling out from the wreckage, but it has been so hard, half-drowned is the perfect way to explain it. Today in church our pastor was in Mark 2, the story of Jesus calming the seas. The disciples had no reason to fear because Jesus had given them His command of, "Let's go to the other side." His command was His promise. He didn't say, "Let's go to the middle of the lake and be drowned in the sea."

 

That spoke to me because I was there last year in that boat saying, "Don't you care, God, don't you see what is happening?" And there was silence. And I was done with God. But today I was reminded through the message that even though I am still on the sea out in the boat and it is still hard, I have His promise to get to the other side.

 

I don't know if this means anything to you, and maybe I am way off base, but I just wanted you to know that I get it. I know what you are feeling, sometimes we just need to know the why. We may never get it, that's where faith comes in. I need to remember that, too.

 

Yeah, that's me, but my crisis has been a lot longer (several years now) and more tumultuous. For periods of time, I have parted company with the label "Christian"; even now, I don't wave it around, because I know there are many very ready to say I don't deserve to use the name.

[Ginevra]

Reason excludes fatith: Look at this, this is why I don't believe

Reason includes fatih: Look at this, this is why I do believe.

Faith includes reason: I believe, and here's why I believe.

Fatih excludes reason. I believe regardless.

 

It's the last group who are unshakable because faith is not dependant on God providing, explaining how He does things, or even living up to His "end of the bargain."

 

Yes, but I dont see why the "unshakable faith" people should be considered above it all. Sometimes, they just seem like idiots. :tongue_smilie: Insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results. Why is someone who just keeps on keepin' on an example of superior faith? Maybe they're just too foolish to stop staring at the horseshoe.

 

My mom is the unshakable faith type and while I think it's "nice" in a whistful sort of way, I don't get it at all. I don't get how a person can be all hearts and lollipops over God when life is crumbling down around their ears, know what I mean? I don't get how mom can dutifully put prayers on her prayer chain and pray in earnest for everything from lost jobs to brain tumors, even as people die, people lose their jobs, people suffer senseless tragedies. :confused: It's quaint, but strange. I'm sure it speaks more to my failures than my mom's, but I have no clue how a person can be like that.

[PineFarmMom]

How about the near pornographic imagery of Song of Solomon? How is this useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness?

 

 

 

 

It's beautiful poetry, but it was obviously written by some guy when he was caught up in erotic feelings toward his lover, not when God was directing his hand.

 

 

King Solomon was a lesson all in himself. It also speaks of how love shouldn't be awakened before its time. It's not unbiblical because God is showing how things are supposed to be. The world has so totally and completely twisted s*x from what God meant it to be. I see that book as showing how God actually wanted us to see it before so many people ruined it.

 

BTW, I didn't come up with the term "All scripture is God-breathed..." God did. I don't have to defend Him. He does so perfectly Himself!! :) He is Awesome and Almighty like that!! This is a hard truth that people don't like, but it is truth...the Bible is God's Word. If I toss stuff from it that I don't like or that doesn't make sense to me, I might as well toss the whole thing and make a little god in my own image. I wouldn't even begin to imagine how my human mind would have the ability to take and leave what I chose from His Word.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Texas T

[Erica in PA]

 

 

It's beautiful poetry, but it was obviously written by some guy when he was caught up in erotic feelings toward his lover, not when God was directing his hand.

 

Does that mean that you think that sexual love and God's direction are incompatible? God is the one who created sex, and created the male and female bodies to unite in pleasure together. I see no reason why He wouldn't include a book in His Word celebrating one of his greatest creations.

[KingM]

Does that mean that you think that sexual love and God's direction are incompatible? God is the one who created sex, and created the male and female bodies to unite in pleasure together. I see no reason why He wouldn't include a book in His Word celebrating one of his greatest creations.

 

I have no problem with it, but if I had written an erotic poem of a similar nature and posted it here, I suspect a lot of people would have found it offensive.

[lionfamily1999]

Quill, I take the NT as the gospel truth. I cannot believe that someone would literally walk with Christ in the flesh, then twist his words and teachings, and then (as most were) be killed refusing to deny Him.

 

I'm not sure that the OT pertains too much, if you're a Christian. I say this, because Christ fulfilled the prophecies and the laws and it is mentioned a few times in the NT that the laws of Moses etc were for the flesh. If you're a born again Christian, you're dead to the flesh and those laws do not pertain. You're held to the standard of the new covenant through Jesus Christ.

 

There's actually a lot of debate in the NT over circumcised and uncircumcised. It was because the Gentiles were (understandably) unwilling to get circumcised. Now, the people that had been Jews thought they had to get circumised because of the law. Paul and Peter go to lengths arguing this and that the law only pertains to those for whom it's always pertained. In my understanding, this would mean, if you were raised this way and this is your standard then you must uphold it, but do not attempt to force someone else to mold to the standards you followed. They are not of the law, they are of the new covenant.

 

Now, I could be incredibly and completely wrong, so I would say you should read the NT yourself and look for the answers.

[SheilaZ]

Yes, but I dont see why the "unshakable faith" people should be considered above it all. Sometimes, they just seem like idiots. :tongue_smilie: Insanity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results. Why is someone who just keeps on keepin' on an example of superior faith? Maybe they're just too foolish to stop staring at the horseshoe.

 

My mom is the unshakable faith type and while I think it's "nice" in a whistful sort of way, I don't get it at all. I don't get how a person can be all hearts and lollipops over God when life is crumbling down around their ears, know what I mean? I don't get how mom can dutifully put prayers on her prayer chain and pray in earnest for everything from lost jobs to brain tumors, even as people die, people lose their jobs, people suffer senseless tragedies. :confused: It's quaint, but strange. I'm sure it speaks more to my failures than my mom's, but I have no clue how a person can be like that.

 

I don't know.

I would never say that I am all hearts and lollipops but those here that know me in real life would say that I don't take the daily "bad things" personally.

 

I don't shake my fist at God and ask why when things go horribly wrong. It's not my place to question Him. I know He has a plan but I have no idea what that plan is.

I have faith that whatever I go through has some purpose if not for my own good then for the good of others.

 

I work very hard to be thankful and see all the tiny gifts that I'm given each day instead of wondering about the things that I don't have. I know that some people would say that I'm this way because nothing really bad has ever happened to me. But that unfortunately, is not true. I just have never blamed God for that stuff.

 

I don't know how I got to this. I don't know about your mom either.

I wish I could explain it to help you.

I do know that I don't pray for people not to lose jobs or to die from cancer. I pray for understanding. I pray to be reminded that He is there and has a plan. I pray for people to feel His love. And above all, I pray for His will to be done and for us to accept it.

 

That might be insane or foolish or quaint or strange. :D(shrug) It keeps me in peace though.

 

Oddly enough, I looked up my old professor after I posted my first message and I emailed him. He wrote me back. He's looking up that old book list from his class almost 20 years ago so I can reread those books with more mature mind.

I can't help but see God's hand in that and even if he can't find that list, I'll be thankful that he was happy to try.

[Lovedtodeath]

I don't see why this should be. I know why you would say that and the Bible stories themselves are filled with examples of people being asked to do something that made no logical sense. But, seriously...I don't see why it should take ignoring or forgetting about what can't be answered in order to accept the package deal.

 

I hope this description doesn't inflame anyone; I'm sure it has that potential. But the picture of my "walk of faith" led me to where I felt like an abused wife. And the defenses of "wait and see" what God would do reminded me of people urging an abused wife to stay and work out her relationship. God will turn everything for good any day now....just keep staring at the horseshoe and hope you don't get kicked. I tend to be pragmatic, to be sure. I don't romanticise that everything is going to work together for good one of these days. I hope for it now and then, but there are situations that never make sense, that are never redeemed.

 

To believe in something is to be able to see that it holds up to inquiry. To love is to trust that you will not be harmed. Where are you left if what you believe did not hold up to inquiry? What if you trusted and yet you were harmed?

 

I do think you can think until your head hurts...or explodes. Even a thread like this wears me down after a while because of all the emotional raw spots it digs at - and I started the thread! And I think on the whole this thread has been nicely done.

 

What was my point? I'm sure I had one...:D

 

Tangentially, Dirtroad, the strange thing about the person who said that awful thing to me about God taking what we love the most is that this was a complete stranger. I never saw him before or since. The circumstances were either an extremely remarkable coincidence, or an intentional supernatural event. That event all by itself really threw me. Was he on a mission from God to straighten me out with the horrible truth? Was he on a mission from "the other guy" to completely shred any faith I might have retained? (If so, he managed.) Can a person think they are the mouthpiece of God, look, speak and act that they are, but be there for the other team? I don't know...it gives me chills.

In the book of Job two of his comforters were sent by Satan, and let us not forget that Satan was causing his suffering to begin with. They were supposedly godly men. Job was told to make sacrifices in their behalf. There are many instances in the Bible where God's people died. Sampson, John, Stephen... or were imprisoned or beaten. God does not promise the kind of protection that we first think of. What he promises is spiritual protection. If we put our faith in him then he will protect our spiritual life and remember us so that we have a hope of resurrection. The book of Job really goes far to explain why God allows anyone to suffer. He is providing an answer to Satan and his lies. Why does God allow suffering?

 

When it comes to blind faith and staying with an abuser, etc. those are very personal things, but I tend to agree with you. Are people who put so much emphasis on blind faith in various situations really teaching from God's word? Do all things work out for the better? Does God himself test us with trials? Does he control all that occurs? We can look to the scriptures help us to understand these very important questions. Just a couple, I know more are needed and available. Ecc 9:12; Habakkuk 1:3; Job 34:10; Rev 12:12

I have no problem with it, but if I had written an erotic poem of a similar nature and posted it here, I suspect a lot of people would have found it offensive.

Yes, but that is imperfect people, and none of us can reflect God's qualities perfectly. Edited August 24, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

God's plan is to vindicate his sovereignty and in so doing, usher in his Kingdom that will restore mankind to perfection and rid us of all suffering and evil. Allowing suffering is answering Satans attacks: that we are better off without God's rulership, that we can decide right and wrong for ourselves and that men will not remain loyal to God if put to the test.