Spiral math help

[crl]

I was quite impressed and love Math-U-See. It is exactly what I needed growing up and I assumed it would work well in our family. My DD seems to be better suited to a spiral approach. What math would you recommend for that? I don't even know what programs could help us since I stopped me search last year when I found MUS.

[Gretchen in NJ]

Does she need a spiral approach or a program with built in review? Personally, I am not a fan of the spiral approach. Learning mathematics is like building a foundation of a house. If you are missing a brick or two from the lower rows, you foundation will be weak. I am a fan of Rod and Staff Math for that reason. You learn a little something new and there is plenty of review in each lesson.

[Ellie]

Are you sure it's "spiral" she doesn't care for, and not the process/hands-on approach? My dc and I would have died if we'd had to handle stuff to do math.

[crl]

Ok, now I'm confused. I don't know what she needs. I just know she is bored with MUS Alpha. She is tired of doing just addition. And she certainly doesn't like the blocks. If I pull them out to use them, she ignores them and just does the work.

[tdeveson]

Tight spirals in math are not recommended and is seen as one of the major reasons American children are so far behind in math, according to a 2006 National Mathematics Advisory Board study. Several other research papers point to the same thing. See http://www.nctm.org/news/content.aspx?id=11952

 

The conclusion is that children attempting to learn math on a spiral are forever approaching a new topic, going over it a few times and moving on without ever having mastered any part of it.

 

The NCTM recommends the mastery approach where a child achieves some form of mastery over a topic before moving on.

 

The only "mastery approach" math curriculum I know is Singapore Math. I know there are others out there, but very few. In general, everyone is stuck with the same broken useless math system we've been using since the '60's.

[lovinmykids]

I have been trying to decide which math I was gonna use for 3rd grade.

I was looking into MUS and it looked really good with the concept of the blocks, but I did think it would start to get boring cuz you stay on one topic so long.

Thru experience of HSing my Dd for 3 full years and using both mastery and spiral, I'm seeing she retained more with a Mastery program.

Her grades were much lower with a Spiral.

BJU is a mastery and they do do manipulatives (if you want) but it's fun and not just blocks all the time. I think that the manipulatives actually make learning math alot easier for a child. Then it is cemented in thier brains and it makes more sence to "why" they are doing things.

I would look into BJU www.BJUpress.com and see what you think.

They do chapters, so they study one topic at a time but also throw some review in there as well. BUT, with all the chapter, the child will get to study a variety of things so there not bored.

I also think AOP is mastery. Alot of maths are spiral out there.

HTH:001_smile:

[Aletheia Academy]

It sounds like she isn't responding well to the kinesthetic nature of MUS, i.e. the blocks.

 

In my family, we are going to have to use two different math programs. My ds is working through MUS and he adores those blocks. I know they will not appeal to my dd, so we are going to use R&S for her. R&S is a mastery program, I believe, but as pp said, there is plenty of review. It's very straight-forward. It's inexpensive. Many folks here on the board have testified as to their kids' achievement using the program. It is a very traditional, solid kind of program. (BTW- MUS doesn't require you to sit on any particular lesson longer than is needed to understand it. There is no requirement or suggestion to do every practice sheet. Whent he concept is mastered, move on, by all means.)

 

There are strong proponents of Singapore Math, as well. My understanding is that that program excels in teaching the conceptual aspect of math. The kids (and teachers) I know who do well with that program are ones who are hard-wired to be math-oriented in the first place. That would not be my dd. And as her teacher, I don't think it would work well for me. It might work for your family, though.

 

I am also a proponent of the mastery approach. I think there are a number of solid math programs out there that can get kids to a level of competence. It is important (and worthwhile) to do the experimenting to find the right match for a kid early on because of the differences in scope and sequences among the various approaches/curricula; otherwise, you may find that there are gaps later on. That could present a fundamental issue with a kid's overall competence that would require remediation. I think you have some time!

 

Best of luck!

Edited August 22, 2009 by Aletheia Academy

[Carol in Cal.]

...that I know of is Saxon.

 

Now, I HATE spiral math, or spiral anything. I can't learn that way. I need to master material, usually starting with an overview, and construct kind of a structure of it. If I use a spiral program, I forget the pesky little tidbits of information.

 

However, my DD learns math with great difficulty, and she learns it best with Saxon. We tried personal tutoring, manipulatives, and a mastery-with-review program, and Saxon is the ONLY way that she really has learned any math.

 

I don't really like Saxon. If I did, I would have stuck with it all the way through and she would be further ahead than she is. However, it really is THE program that has enabled me to teach my DD math, and so I have to say that I'm glad it exists. If you need a spiral program for your child, try Saxon.

[TracyR]

I wouldn't go by what everyone says here. Sometimes the spiral approach is the best approach. After using three mastery math programs with my 2nd daughter she would go into fits and couldn't remember a thing we did after using any of them. So some children really NEED a spiral approach and there isn't anything wrong with that.

 

If you want a non Christian approach I suggest Saxon math. I have used it for K and 1st with my second daughter and wished I never stopped. Just because this approach was the very best for her. Saxon isn't fancy and its not full of bells and whistles but if your child doesn't want to focus on one topic at a time then Saxon would be the best to go with for a non Christian program.

 

If you don't mind using a Christian math program then I highly recommend CLE hands down. After many years of using a mastery math program I am literally back to the beginning with my now 4th grader. She is just finishing up the 100 level and we are getting ready for the 200 level. She has done so much better and she no longer bursts out in tears and tells me she is stupid when it comes to math. CLE is less time intensive as the elementary Saxon math.

[Ray]

Singapore Math is spiral.

[nd293]

What about Horizons Math from Alpha Omega? We LOVE it. DD is easily bored, and grasps Maths fairly intuitively, and this is working brilliantly for her, where a mastery approach like Singapore didn't work. They have sample pages on their website. I think MEP is spiral...?

 

Horizons doesn't just review regularly, nor does it just jump around (a critisism I have heard of Saxon), it builds steadily on a topic, then takes a break, goes over it again, adds a bit more, takes a break, goes over it again etc etc.

[thowell]

Have you looked at MEP? My girls are loving this I also practice the basics with them over and over until they get them then we move on. But i also use MEP to give them the mental math and reinforce what we are doing. They LOVE IT. And it is free on the web. There is also a MEP yahoo group that can walk you through all of it. Below is the link to MEP

 

http://ceure.buffalostate.edu/~csmp/CSMP%20Program/index.html

[Dinsfamily]

What about Horizons Math from Alpha Omega? We LOVE it. DD is easily bored, and grasps Maths fairly intuitively, and this is working brilliantly for her, where a mastery approach like Singapore didn't work. They have sample pages on their website. I think MEP is spiral...?

 

Horizons doesn't just review regularly, nor does it just jump around (a critisism I have heard of Saxon), it builds steadily on a topic, then takes a break, goes over it again, adds a bit more, takes a break, goes over it again etc etc.

 

Okay, so we're only doing K (on lesson 96), so my experience is limited, but ITA. There really isn't any jumping around. The topics are revisited systematically and increase in difficulty. So far we give Horizons a :thumbup1:.

 

BTW, is Singapore spiral or mastery? There seem to be some differing opinions in this thread. I was under the impression that it is spiral. My ds is also one that could not handle a mastery program. He picks up concepts very quickly and gets bored. I'm planning on starting Singapore PM 1A soon.

[Marla]

I just know she is bored with MUS Alpha. She is tired of doing just addition. And she certainly doesn't like the blocks. QUOTE]

 

Is your dd bored with doing only addition because she already has it mastered so needs to move on in MUS to Beta? Or is she struggling with mastering her addition facts so is "stuck" and can't move forward?

 

When we did Alpha, my dd had trouble mastering her addition facts so she was "stuck" and it brought her to tears, OFTEN! I loved MUS, but she didn't and she finally asked if there was a "Math without Tears" (we were using Handwriting without Tears, at the time). We switched to RightStart which uses an abacus instead of the blocks. She also strongly disliked the blocks but has not found the abacus objectionable. It's been a much better fit for her as there is variety in math each day.

 

You asked about a spiral math. This summer we've being doing Christian Light (CLE) because I felt my dd needed more computation practice and a spiraling review. It is incremental in that a new lesson is taught each day in bite sized chunks. Then the rest of the lesson is a review of previously taught concepts so there is LOTS of variety. The workbook is written directly to the student so they can work independently (at least at the 300-400 Level, I'm not familiar with Level 100-200). The CLE lesson is longer than my dd is used to so she has complained about that fact but IMO, her math skills have improved over the summer due to CLE.

[Lovedtodeath]

We are very happy with Abeka. We used Horizons and MUS before. After lots of researching, I think that Abeka and BJU are the best and most reliable marh programs at this time. Abeka has been completely secular (in use) so far.

 

Abeka Arithmetic saved my homeschool! Before...

This sounds just like us! I tried Horizons K and...

Edited August 22, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Gretchen in NJ]

Tight spirals in math are not recommended and is seen as one of the major reasons American children are so far behind in math, according to a 2006 National Mathematics Advisory Board study. Several other research papers point to the same thing. See http://www.nctm.org/news/content.aspx?id=11952

 

The conclusion is that children attempting to learn math on a spiral are forever approaching a new topic, going over it a few times and moving on without ever having mastered any part of it.

 

The NCTM recommends the mastery approach where a child achieves some form of mastery over a topic before moving on.

 

The only "mastery approach" math curriculum I know is Singapore Math. I know there are others out there, but very few. In general, everyone is stuck with the same broken useless math system we've been using since the '60's.

This always gets my goat.:glare: The NCTM was the ones that pushed spiral mathematics when I was studying to be a teacher. Now, they don't like it after ruining a math generation or two.:glare::glare:

 

:lol:They now agree with me.:lol: I wonder what my old prof would say now.:glare:

[AngieW in Texas]

Other programs to look at:

 

Excel Math is spiral and a lot cheaper than Saxon Math. It only costs $46/grade level. The student worksheets are completely consumable, but you can sell the teacher edition when you're done.

 

Saxon is also spiral. My kids would have died if I tried to use Saxon with them. I would have failed math with Saxon even though I'm a very mathy person (probably BECAUSE I'm a very mathy person). OTOH I know of several kids who didn't do well with math at all until they used Saxon, so I know it works well for some kids. Saxon lessons tend to be very long. I've heard of kids needing as much as an hour to complete one lesson even in 1st grade.

 

Singapore is a mastery program, but it doesn't keep you doing addition for a full schoolyear like MUS. It changes topics at the end of each chapter, so you keep with a concept long enough to get it, but don't beat yourself to death on it. It doesn't use manipulatives, although you can add manipulatives if your kids need them. Singapore uses pictures and block diagrams to illustrate problems. It's a very strong math program and is a favorite of the very mathy folks on this board. My two older girls did very well with it. My youngest is doing well with it also, but I had to add Evan-Moor Daily Math Practice for her. She needed daily systematic review. Singapore has reviews, but they were spaced out too far for her.

 

Excel Math and Saxon are tight spiral programs. That means that they introduce a new concept and have maybe 3-5 problems that use that concept and everything else in that lesson is review. Some kids do well with that type of approach, but many others have to get a lot more practice on the new concept to really learn it.

 

Singapore is a mastery program. It will teach a concept in a lesson and then have more like 10-15 problems on the new concept. The next lesson will often take that same concept just a bit farther and then have another set of problems using the concept. This will go on for several lessons. Then there will be a lesson that may pull together everything that's been taught for the past several lessons. After 2-3 weeks, you'll usually get to a problem set that requires you to use previous knowledge along with the new concepts that you've been covering. The reviews aren't evenly spaced, but my dd tends to get to them at least every 2 months or so. The reviews will pull together everything that's been learned since the last review. My youngest used to have a lot of difficulty with the things that we'd stopped working on (like fractions when we switched to working with decimals), but adding in Daily Math Practice from Evan-Moor mostly took care of that problem.

 

BTW, MUS was a flaming crash-and-burn here. That's another program that I know works really well for some kids, but absolutely not for others.

 

You have to keep in mind that no program is perfect for all kids and no program is awful for all kids. The thing that makes a program crash-and-burn for your kid may be the thing that makes it the best thing ever for another kid.

[FlutterbyMommy]

I am new here, so all I can offer is what I have researched. Have you considered RighStart? It is said to use bother spiral and mastery.

 

This is what is says on its website in the FAQ section:

 

RightStart Mathematics is a unique program that has aspects of both spiral and mastery approach. First we need to define our terms. Spiral learning is based on behaviorism, which says we are programmable machines and we need endless repetitions to master something. Spiral curriculums cover the same material year after year in ever widening circles, with the anticipation that increased exposures will eventually lead to mastery of the basics. The number of topics covered is broad, but they never go deep. It is more of an exposure philosophy.

 

Mastery approach curriculum builds sequentially. This philosophy states that there is no need to move to the next step until the preceding one is mastered. Therefore, lessons may take many days or even weeks if necessary for students to master the facts. Fewer topics are covered. Pre-testing and post-testing are done to assure mastery. Both approaches have some validity as well as some drawbacks.

I am curious to see the thought throughout the thread. :lurk5:

[Ray]

About the 'spiral', 'mastery' thing and Singapore Math, topics are introduced at certain stage of complexity and the same topics come up with successive texts but at an ever increasing level of complexity- Spiral. But the 'topic stages' are not repeated- Mastery; so SM could be both.

 

Because I don’t think these two terms are well defined they are not useful for discerning differences between math programs and parents should be cautious of ruling out a particular math curriculum based on them.

 

Ray

Edited August 23, 2009 by Ray

[Dinsfamily]

About the 'spiral', 'mastery' thing and Singapore Math, topics are introduced at certain stage of complexity and the same topics come up with successive texts but at an ever increasing level of complexity- Spiral. But the 'topic stages' are not repeated- Mastery; so SM could be both.

 

Because I don’t think these two terms are well defined they are not useful for discerning differences between math programs and parents should be cautious of ruling out a particular math curriculum based on them.

 

Ray

 

Thanks, this makes sense to me. I was concerned that I'd overlooked something. SM looks perfect for my ds, but I don't have it in my hands yet.

[Ellie]

Ok, now I'm confused. I don't know what she needs. I just know she is bored with MUS Alpha. She is tired of doing just addition. And she certainly doesn't like the blocks. If I pull them out to use them, she ignores them and just does the work.

Again, I'd look at more traditional math: math that does not depend on manipulatives, such as BJUP, MCP, or R&S. Not all children need manipulatives, and it seems to be the manipulatives that are not working for her. I don't believe it's spiral vs mastery; it's process vs traditional.

 

My choice is Rod and Staff.

[Lovedtodeath]

DD couldn't stand MUS. With Abeka we sometimes use pennies, marbles, and straws for addition and subtraction, and of course rulers, measuring cups, coins and clocks for other things. She loves hands on and always has, even when we used A squared. Just not boring hands-on.

[crl]

Again, I'd look at more traditional math: math that does not depend on manipulatives, such as BJUP, MCP, or R&S. Not all children need manipulatives, and it seems to be the manipulatives that are not working for her. I don't believe it's spiral vs mastery; it's process vs traditional.

 

My choice is Rod and Staff.

 

You might be right on this one.

 

I think she's got her basic addition down pretty good and yet we just started MUS alpha without using blocks. I'm not sure a 6 year old should be moving on to Beta so quickly, so that's why I though another program just might suit her better. You've all given me a ton to process so now I think I'm on math overload. :tongue_smilie:

[Ottakee]

I just bought Christian Light Education Math 3 for my dd and REALLY like the looks of it. It is spiral and keeps reviewing previously covered material but they also expect mastery of the topics covered.

 

I like it as it has some drill work, mental math, and then some new material along with some review of things they have already covered. That way the child is not doing endless pages of adding or subtracting but a variety of problems each day--like you would in "real life".

[Mom0012]

I just bought Christian Light Education Math 3 for my dd and REALLY like the looks of it. It is spiral and keeps reviewing previously covered material but they also expect mastery of the topics covered.

 

I like it as it has some drill work, mental math, and then some new material along with some review of things they have already covered. That way the child is not doing endless pages of adding or subtracting but a variety of problems each day--like you would in "real life".

 

Ottakee -

 

Glad you posted this because the earlier posts about the research behind spiral math programs had me questioning my choices for this year. I just moved my daughter into CLE Math and LA and my son into CLE LA. So far, so good though.

 

Lisa

[Dani n Monies Mom]

Have you considered Strayer-Upton books?

 

Ava