Looking for a pro-vaxer (& I am one) to explain

[JennC]

Why am I being told to vaccinate my children against Hepatitis A, which by the vaccine literature is transmitted by a virus found in the stool of an infected individual? And is recommended by the same literature as for men who have sex with other men and the health care field?

Edited August 13, 2009 by JennC
run on sentence, that is still run on, but not as bad as it was

[ThatCyndiGirl]

There is more to it than that.

 

 

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/downloads/vis-hep-a.pdf

 

 

It is transmitted in more ways than that. See above pamphlet.

 

(I'm a vaxer, too. Formerly anti turned pro.)

[Renee in NC]

Why am I being told to vaccinate my children against Hepatitis A, which by the vaccine literature is transmitted by a virus found in the stool of an infected individual? And is recommended by the same literature as for men who have sex with other men and the health care field?

 

Because it is usually contracted in restaurants. Someone who has it works in a restaurant and transmits it to all the customers after he goes to the bathroom and doesn't wash his hands...:tongue_smilie:

[KarenNC]

We did it because we have a very large and constantly changing new immigrant population from areas where Hep A is common. A lot of these immigrants work in areas coming into contact with food---restaurants especially, as well as food processing plants. I've gotten food poisoning before from restaurant workers who did not practice sufficiently good hygiene (I have no idea of their ethnicity), so I know that things do indeed spread this way.

 

Their young children (an age in any population more likely to spread things like this, rotovirus, etc and when the virus is most common in the developing world) also play on the same playgrounds, are in the same grocery stores and other stores, public restrooms, etc that my child frequents. I teach her good hygiene habits, but I am happy for an extra layer of protection, as I don't really want to be part of the 10% of folks who get it who have ongoing problems for months.

 

We also have family members who are elderly or have weakened immune systems, another reason we typically get flu shots each year (other than to avoid the misery of the flu ourselves) and try to stay away from them if we are the least bit likely to be ill.

[Mommyof4ks]

It is rampant is daycares around here. Kids often don't wipe well, make a mess in the bathroom and do not wash their hands after going to the bathroom. We have not vaxed for that because it is not yet required in our county, but it is a nasty virus. It is short lived though and usually does not do permanent damage. Do some research on the virus and see if you deem it worth vaxing for.

[JennC]

There is more to it than that.

 

 

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/vis/downloads/vis-hep-a.pdf

 

 

It is transmitted in more ways than that. See above pamphlet.

 

(I'm a vaxer, too. Formerly anti turned pro.)

 

OK this is the pamphlet I have. I can't cut and paste it but the list of people who should be vaccinated includes people traveling to underdeveloped countries, people who live where there is an outbreak, men who have sex with men, people who use street drugs, people with chronic liver disease, people who work with infected primates, and

ALL CHILDREN.

Please help me understand how this is not every family in American subsidizing an immunization that was developed to stop a disease in one subgroup of the population. ie if all children are forced to pay for this vaccine, we can give it to the gay and street population for free.

I am beginning to get jaded. I will continue to immunize my children against childhood diseases, but this is not one.

I guess after seeing so many commercials that promote guardisil without even mentioning that it is a 'sexually transmitted disease' with better ways of preventing it has me thinking that the whole thing is becoming a racket. No one wants their children to have measles, mumps, chicken pox etc. But my children are not going to be exposed to a disease of gay men and diseased primates. :confused:I'm struggling here and not just baiting you. I feel like I must be on guard at all times -even with my hcprovider.

[Desert Rat]

Same here. We have a large immigrant population and a father who is immune compromised. We visit him often (3-4 times a week). A virus that would just make us ill could pose deadly for him. It isn't worth the risk. I think with vaccines, and this is just my very humble opinion and should not be taken offensively by those who don't want to/can't vaccinate, that I'm not just vaccinating my child but protecting the community by lessening the chance that my child could spread disease.

[JennC]

We did it because we have a very large and constantly changing new immigrant population from areas where Hep A is common. A lot of these immigrants work in areas coming into contact with food---restaurants especially, as well as food processing plants. I've gotten food poisoning before from restaurant workers who did not practice sufficiently good hygiene (I have no idea of their ethnicity), so I know that things do indeed spread this way.

 

Thank you for this insight. We live outside of town in a 'village' of about 250. I homeschool and we rarely even go to town, let alone eat out. Most people here are from families who settled here in the 1800s. But I see how your situation is entirely different. It makes sense for you and I understand your POV.

 

It is rampant is daycares around here. Kids often don't wipe well, make a mess in the bathroom and do not wash their hands after going to the bathroom. We have not vaxed for that because it is not yet required in our county, but it is a nasty virus. It is short lived though and usually does not do permanent damage. Do some research on the virus and see if you deem it worth vaxing for.

 

I would like to do some reading on it. We also do not use the flu shot, so I have made individual vax decisions. But this is new to me. How do I find an independent site for this? if you don't mind helping me find one

[JennC]

and should not be taken offensively by those who don't want to/can't vaccinate, that I'm not just vaccinating my child but protecting the community by lessening the chance that my child could spread disease.

 

I appreciate and agree with your sentiments here. I am just at a loss as to how my children would even be exposed to this at all, let alone pass it on. I think the nurse told my husband that she thought there were two cases in MT last year. An out of state college student engaged in "risky" behaviour and a transient. And then she said my almost 2yo should get the shot at her next appt. and all my boys should get it now. HUH?

[Kissy]

I think it is recommended because once it is around it spreads easily. Again by not washing hands even if your child does that means your child can't spread it but it doesn't mean they won't touch something where someone else spread it like at the grocery store. You sound like you are in a place where this might not be an issue and you should judge for yourself what you think but it is recommended and pushed because your situation is the minority. Where I live everyone I know except one person came from somewhere else in the US. We live in a much bigger place with people coming and going all the time so it is a real danger here.

[Blessedfamily]

Our pediatrician told me they stress the Hep A so much because we don't have a problem here. They still encourage you to do it, but not as much as the others.

 

In fact, she said, "I won't twist your arm about that one, but for the others I would." My 5yo didn't understand that she was teasing and said, "I don't let anybody twist my Mama's arms."

Edited August 13, 2009 by Blessedfamily

[LaxMom]

Why am I being told to vaccinate my children against Hepatitis A, which by the vaccine literature is transmitted by a virus found in the stool of an infected individual? And is recommended by the same literature as for men who have sex with other men and the health care field?

 

Um, yes, I seem to recall a conversation about the Hep B vaccine, in which I asked my pediatrician whether we were betting on the children being health care workers or IV drug users. :001_huh: I believe that was right before I told him to pound sand (which is the same answer elicited by the chicken pox vaccine which, as far as I am concerned, is a purely economic vaccine whose purpose is to keep people from missing school/work).

 

Otherwise, I'm pretty sure our children are fully vaccinated (unless they've come up with new ones). Other things I vaccinate for because our lifestyle does include exposure to oddball things that are communicable but uncommon.

[kalanamak]

Why am I being told to vaccinate my children against Hepatitis A, which by the vaccine literature is transmitted by a virus found in the stool of an infected individual? And is recommended by the same literature as for men who have sex with other men and the health care field?

 

Hep A outbreaks sometimes come from produce...wasn't it green onions that killed a few people a few years ago? Raw sewage in the fertilizer and all....

 

I think of Hep B as being for MSM and health care workers.

 

Here is the info:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5247a5.htm

 

555 people got it when this blurb was written, and three had died. Not a tiny amount.

 

I had a friend who got it. He felt like he was dying, and got down to 90 lbs. And, while not to belittle the pain of losing a loved one to any disease, watching someone die of fulminant hepatitis is *very* hard on the family. I think the patient is generally too "out of it" to know what's going on, but it is an ugly death.

Edited August 14, 2009 by kalanamak

[Perry]

I appreciate and agree with your sentiments here. I am just at a loss as to how my children would even be exposed to this at all, let alone pass it on. I think the nurse told my husband that she thought there were two cases in MT last year. An out of state college student engaged in "risky" behaviour and a transient. And then she said my almost 2yo should get the shot at her next appt. and all my boys should get it now. HUH?

 

The rates of Hep A have decreased dramatically since 1999, when routine vaccination of children for Hep A began. If people weren't vaccinating there would be far more than 2 cases.

 

 

 

 

[jenL]

We received this vaccine (all of us) because we learned after eating at a fast food place that an employee there tested positive for it. Everyone who ate at the restaurant on certain days was alerted to go get the vaccine, so we did. It was alarming to think we had been exposed.

 

We also live in a large immigrant population area, so it makes me feel safer that my children are protected even if some believe the chances of exposure and contraction are slim.

[KarenNC]

Thank you for this insight. We live outside of town in a 'village' of about 250. I homeschool and we rarely even go to town, let alone eat out. Most people here are from families who settled here in the 1800s. But I see how your situation is entirely different. It makes sense for you and I understand your POV.

 

Yes, quite different. Our general area has about 1.5 million people.

[dhudson]

I am pro-vax but I vaccinate on a different time line than the Dr. recommends. Anyway, I have vaccinated mine from Hep A because we go on family missions trips to Juarez (where the disease is rampant) and we also serve at homeless shelters.

[hornblower]

Definitely depends on your population size, make-up and your level of exposure. Eating out counts. Buying prepared meals counts. A trip to a resort in a sunny destination (caribbean etc) definitely counts. If you don't do these things, I think your risk is much lower...

 

I live in an area of over 2.2 mil people, many of whom are immigrants from areas where it's endemic. Same for Hep B. (Hep B is also part of the routine infant vax & Gr. 6 vax for public health here)

[JennC]

The rates of Hep A have decreased dramatically since 1999, when routine vaccination of children for Hep A began. If people weren't vaccinating there would be far more than 2 cases.

 

 

 

OK, but in the peak year of this chart there were +/- 180 cases in our state. What was the cost to get that down to 18. Yes, statistically, that is a huge jump, but generally before vax, it was +/-80/year.

Every child has to have a $200 shot to bring it down to this? What is the treatment for the disease? I'm guessing that children are not the main people who do become infected - judging by the vax info sheet.

For a reference point - our family does not receive the flu shot either, by choice. In 15 years of parenting, one son has had influA. He was sick a week or so and it wasn't fun, not wanting to purposely infect my children obviously.

but what about the side effects of not allowing our bodies to build natural long lasting immunity, instead of a year to year dependence on selective immunity?

[JennC]

We received this vaccine (all of us) because we learned after eating at a fast food place that an employee there tested positive for it..

 

1. asking out of ignorance Is HepA a lifetime, untreatable disease?

2. if the restaurant knew they had an employee putting people at risk and advertised that fact, aren't they at risk for negligence?

3. If you found out after you ate there, would a vaccine do you any good?

[peachskittles]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepatitis_A

 

Sure, it's wikipedia, but it might help anserw some of your questions...:001_smile:

[JennC]

Thanks for the link.

 

So basically, I think I will pass on vaxing my kids at significant cost, against a disease they will most likely not encounter, which if contracted by a healthy child can cause flu-like symptoms with no lasting damage, and impart life-long immunity against further infection.

 

I appreciate this not being a debate, because I know for me, I just try to take the available information and make the best decisions for my children. I feel almost duped by the system that is pushing this vax, as I believe it gives ammunition to the anti-vax camp. Does any one else feel that way? People are choosing not to protect their children against painful, disfiguring, childhood diseases (for instance MMR) because they have such negative feelings about vaccines in general? Maybe I wouldn't feel this way if I didn't have such a lousy day yesterday on top of the "she needs the HepA shot". (see post about cars)

But has anyone heard one commercial for Guardasil say that there is a surefire way to prevent HPV? Not 70% of 50% . . . and Without a shot.

 

Thanks all for your help.

[Blessedfamily]

The rates of Hep A have decreased dramatically since 1999, when routine vaccination of children for Hep A began. If people weren't vaccinating there would be far more than 2 cases.

 

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Before 2006, the vaccine was recommended only in high risk states/areas and certain populations. I checked the chart carefully every year for my dd, because I vaccinate cautiously. It was not routine in VA, and yet the chart you posted does indeed show a decline here before it became routine.

 

From the CDC's 2006 schedule (emphasis mine)-

 

"Hepatitis A vaccine is now universally recommended for all children at age 1 year (12--23 months). ...."

 

The 2005 chart Hep A footnote says- "Hep A is recommended for children and adolescents in selected states and regions and for certain groups at high risk"

[Perry]

Before 2006, the vaccine was recommended only in high risk states/areas and certain populations. I checked the chart carefully every year for my dd, because I vaccinate cautiously. It was not routine in VA, and yet the chart you posted does indeed show a decline here before it became routine.

 

From the CDC's 2006 schedule (emphasis mine)-

 

"Hepatitis A vaccine is now universally recommended for all children at age 1 year (12--23 months). ...."

 

The 2005 chart Hep A footnote says- "Hep A is recommended for children and adolescents in selected states and regions and for certain groups at high risk"

 

 

Routine Hepatitis A Vaccination in the United States

 

 

In 1999, the implementation of a routine immunization program was recommended for 11 states where the annual disease rate was at least 20 cases/100,000 people.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was referring to the Western area since the OP said she lived in Montana. I believe in those 11 western states the vaccine was recommended for all kids. Edited August 14, 2009 by Perry
wrong link

[Blessedfamily]

:glare: This thread has really put me off eating out. I do it only when far out of town anyway, but I may start keeping Army rations in my vehicle for such instances.

[keptwoman]

TI appreciate this not being a debate, because I know for me, I just try to take the available information and make the best decisions for my children. I feel almost duped by the system that is pushing this vax, as I believe it gives ammunition to the anti-vax camp. Does any one else feel that way? People are choosing not to protect their children against painful, disfiguring, childhood diseases (for instance MMR) because they have such negative feelings about vaccines in general?

I can relate, I have become also to feel quite duped by the system. I used to just do all vaxes, but not any more. I often wonder how many of these new vaccinations are really for our childrens health and how many are actually to line drug companies pockets at the expense of our children.

 

I actually don't believe the MMR vax to be necessary either, as the M and M were routine childhood illnesses just like chicken pox when I was young from which the very vast majority of children had no long term effects. Rubella on the other hand I think is very important.

 

For me the list of vaccines that I think are way more about the drug companies than health is growing and growing.

[Sugarfoot]

Well, my DH is a gastronenterologist, and this came up at my DS 23 mos.'s last check-up. My DH happened to be the one who took him to the ped. He declined to do the Hep. A vaccine, saying that the risk just wasn't there for us. I personally think that vaccinations are getting out of hand. My youngest has had so many more than my oldest did at this age. It makes me wonder how many more they'll add in future years and when it will stop...

[Unicorn.]

From the CDC:

Hepatitis means inflammation of the liver. Toxins, certain drugs, some diseases, heavy alcohol use, and bacterial and viral infections can all cause hepatitis. Hepatitis is also the name of a family of viral infections that affect the liver; the most common types in the United States are hepatitis A, hepatitis B, and hepatitis C.

 

Hepatitis A is a contagious liver disease that results from infection with the hepatitis A virus. It can range in severity from a mild illness lasting a few weeks to a severe illness lasting several months. Hepatitis A is usually spread when a person ingests fecal matter — even in microscopic amounts — from contact with objects, food, or drinks contaminated by the feces or stool of an infected person.

 

The best way to prevent hepatitis A is by getting vaccinated.

 

Our dc got this vac. because we live in a county that requires it for ps kids (close enough to the border or something) We were told that it was far worse than hep C. I probably wouldn't have gotten it if we lived in Montana though! :0)

[Rainbows]

We were told that it was far worse than hep C. I probably wouldn't have gotten it if we lived in Montana though! :0)

 

Really? I thought that Hep A was a self limiting illness, but Hep C was a chronic one. Did they say how/why Hep A was worse?

[Perry]

Really? I thought that Hep A was a self limiting illness, but Hep C was a chronic one. Did they say how/why Hep A was worse?

 

 

You are correct. Hepatitis C is much worse.

[hornblower]

.

 

I actually don't believe the MMR vax to be necessary either, as the M and M were routine childhood illnesses just like chicken pox when I was young from which the very vast majority of children had no long term effects. Rubella on the other hand I think is very important.

 

Measles is still a leading cause of death among young children globally. In places with poor infrastructure, measles kills.

 

Mumps is usually mild disease of childhood but it can be more serious if adults catch it.

 

I think as a culture we're all very blase about illnesses & we think that between vax, or herd immunity, we're protected & if not, well, we have a lovely safety net of antibiotics, retrovirals & ICU's which can keep up fluids & keep us breathing until our immune system kicks in (assuming you have the $ to access these resources).... And mostly that's been right for the last 50 yrs or so.

 

But I think it's going to change & change fast. Between mutating viruses, antibiotic resistance, and an overtasked healthcare system + a toddering economy, I think we'll see the times my grandmother spoke of again: times when coughs were feared, when mothers maintained a vigil by an infant's side, and when many children died of diphtheria, measles, croup....

[Unicorn.]

I think they told us that so we would get our dc the vax, and not fight it. They made it sound really scary! At that time we didn't have any internet access, so I couldn't google it, or ask the great people on this board about it! :0)

[EKS]

Really? I thought that Hep A was a self limiting illness, but Hep C was a chronic one. Did they say how/why Hep A was worse?

 

My father had Hepatitis A when he was in his 30s and he was extremely ill for several months. It may be self limiting but is not a trivial disease.

[Perry]

My father had Hepatitis A when he was in his 30s and he was extremely ill for several months. It may be self limiting but is not a trivial disease.

 

Yep. It can range from mild to severe, and in extreme cases can be fatal. But it doesn't lead to chronic liver disease, cirrhosis, or liver cancer, like Hepatitis B and C can.

[Perry]

1. asking out of ignorance Is HepA a lifetime, untreatable disease?

2. if the restaurant knew they had an employee putting people at risk and advertised that fact, aren't they at risk for negligence?

3. If you found out after you ate there, would a vaccine do you any good?

 

 

1. No, it ranges from mild to severe, and is very rarely fatal. Once recovered, there is no chronic infection. Hepatitis B and C can cause chronic infection, liver failure, cirrhosis, and liver cancer.

 

2. If they continued to let him work there after they knew he was sick they'd be in a world of trouble.

 

3.Yes, vaccination within 14 days of exposure has been shown to decrease the risk of getting sick with hepatitis A.

[Perry]

OK, but in the peak year of this chart there were +/- 180 cases in our state. What was the cost to get that down to 18. Yes, statistically, that is a huge jump, but generally before vax, it was +/-80/year.

Every child has to have a $200 shot to bring it down to this? What is the treatment for the disease? I'm guessing that children are not the main people who do become infected - judging by the vax info sheet.

 

It is true that the hepatitis A vaccine is probably not cost effective, if you are only looking at monetary cost.

 

 

For a reference point - our family does not receive the flu shot either, by choice. In 15 years of parenting, one son has had influA. He was sick a week or so and it wasn't fun, not wanting to purposely infect my children obviously.

but what about the side effects of not allowing our bodies to build natural long lasting immunity, instead of a year to year dependence on selective immunity?

 

Natural immunity to influenza isn't any better than the immunity you get from the vaccine, because the virus mutates so quickly.

[Perry]

Natural immunity to influenza isn't any better than the immunity you get from the vaccine, because the virus mutates so quickly.

 

 

I should qualify this.

 

Not everyone who gets an influenza vaccine will get immunity. Even if you do get an immune response from the vaccine, it can decrease over time. Natural immunity may decrease over time as well; I don't know of any good data that compares the two.

 

The vaccine and natural immunity both induce antibodies that should last many years. They just aren't any good for different (later) strains of the flu.

[dangermom]

My mom had Hepatitis A when she was about 10. She was in bed for 6 weeks solid, only allowed to get up to go to the bathroom, and it took months to recover fully. We get that vaccination.

[AndyJoy]

3.Yes, vaccination within 14 days of exposure has been shown to decrease the risk of getting sick with hepatitis A.

 

When I was 13 our pastor's basement flooded with water and backed up sewage. I was part of the crew that bailed it out. The pastor's wife (who was a nurse) urged us to all get hepatitis A vaccines the next day. They pastor's 17-year-old daughter and I did, but none of the adult men did!