Colleen Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Tossing this out there for the sake of discussion. Let's say, hypothetically, homeschooling parents were required by law to gain teaching credentials. (This is purely hypothetically. I don't foresee this happening, regardless of the current drama in CA.) Would you abide by such a law? Those of you who would "go underground", so to speak, what's your beef against such a requirement? (I am not looking for red herring arguments e.g. lamenting the fact that some credentialed teachers do a poor job, etc.) Those of you who would follow such requirements, please share your three pennies, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bess Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Well, it wouldn't be a matter of gettting just any old teaching credential...one would have to get one for each grade they intend to teach. And then for highschool...one for every subject taught. That's my understanding of things anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdWTMer Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Well, I guess that if it was secondary & primary it would be okay. But each subject? Hmmm. I need to think more on this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lakeside Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I imagine that cost would be a prohibitive factor for many people, especially if it was the same process public school teachers have to go through. (Depending on the state, that is.) Shannon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Here would be my beef with it. 1) I've already spent $40,000 on my degree and don't need to spend that again in order to be better able to teach my children. 2) I know for a fact that getting a teaching credential does very little to prepare a teacher to actually teach in a classroom. What makes a good teacher is experience. I've got that. 3) I have problems with any country or state that would say I have to "pay" for the right to educate my children. It is my right, period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I don't see how it could be done, from a practical standpoint. A huge amount of a teaching credential is crowd control, how to handle a classroom, plus educational theory and so on. A lot of it doesn't apply to homeschoolers anyway. And as above, if you have an elementary certificate what do you do when you get to high school? I think they'd have to come up with a special kind of certificate just for people planning to homeschool! If they wanted it to be any kind of useful--which they don't. It's much more about state control and union control than it is about whether an ordinary person is intelligent enough to teach a child to read. I have a master's degree; I'm better educated on paper than many teachers. More to the point (and far more importantly), I am a well-read and intelligent person who is more concerned with my children's education than anyone else is, and perfectly able to do any research I need to do. What good would we get out of spending years jumping through hoops and taking classes that don't apply to our situation? (Besides spending a lot of money and time--) If I want to know how to teach 4th grade science, I can figure it out myself with the resources available to me (for free). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Not only that, the money it would cost hundreds of thousands of homeschooling parents. Who would provide them with the teacher's certificates? Would they all be accepted into colleges and universities by virtue of being homeschool parents or would they have to apply and fight for spots in a program? Would they be able to teach their children while going to school for the certificate or would they be unable to homeschool while in the process of following the law? If they have teacher's certificates and are homeschooling, would they then be able to deduct their homeschooling expenses from their tax returns, including the cost of education for their certificate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen Posted March 8, 2008 Author Share Posted March 8, 2008 So let's say for the sake of argument that one general credential was offered for the purposes of homeschooling, 'k? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I don't think that it should be allowed to stand as a requirement. I am fine with the state incentivizing this in some way--OK, maybe not fine, but I would not feel a need to fight it. But I would fight the other as a requirement. The price of liberty is eternal vigilance. I'm willing to be vigilant. Also, from a practical standpoint, I don't know how fast parents could get credentials. What would they do in the meantime? At a minimum, I would think that it would be unreasonable to expect this to happen instantly, so a new law would need to allow for some 'grandfathering'. But I would still fight against a new law. I don't know whether I would do civil disobediance or not. But I feel a need to read up on it--starting with Thoreau, and also some of the newish books about the early, 'pretty illegal' days of homeschooling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I would not comply. College professors are not required to hold teaching certificates (and when new fields of study open up, some of the leaders in that don't even hold degrees). I think the test for a teacher/mentor should be expertise, not whether or not one's major in college was in the education field. In fact, I believe that, in general, the education major is a much less rigorous degree program than many others that exist, so I would probably actually prefer a teacher who majored in English, history, some area of science, etc. If those already doing this were allowed to demonstrate expertise through showing past yearly plans (or drawing up sets of plans if they don't keep things); demonstrate that their children were posting progress in various milestones through testing or other means, etc., so that they could be grandfathered into the system, then I would be happy to comply with such a request as that. But I don't feel I should be compelled to return to school and incur that expense just to study in an area which holds no interest whatsoever for me (and with whose principles I will probably completely disagree) in order to make some bureaucrats happy - because it won't change the way I do school one bit....... Regena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Peregrine Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 No, I don't need a certificate that says I can teach my children. I don't really "teach" them anyway. I just facilitate and I have been doing that since the day they were born. So, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdWTMer Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Considering my religious beliefs said that I need to obey the laws of the land, then Yes I would feel like I would need to do it. However, I just don't see how they'd do it? Would they just give a test? If it's a test I could study for, sure. Hypothetically, would this mean that I would have to be observed like most public school educators? Would they have to come into my home and see if I'm doing things the way that they want me to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in Austin Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I would guess that if this really were to become law, some enterprising college would make a certification program that was designed for homeschoolers: distance learning, minimal cost, minimal effort (despite multiple ages/subjects), etc. And--heaven help us--maybe including material that would actually be useful to homeschoolers--no classroom management, but ideas on how to keep toddlers busy! Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 But it isn't really about being certified. Its about discouraging homeschooling. If we jumped through the hoop of certification there would certainly be more hoops to come. It would be neverending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 No, I wouldn't do it because it doesn't benefit me in any way (except that I would need to look over my shoulder a little less), but penalizes me time and money. It's would be a piece of paper that is essentially worthless and allows me to do what I've been doing successfully for 14 years. Testing? Sure. I've done portfolios and complained every minute, but I've done it. Out of principle I would dig my heels in at a teaching credential I don't want and don't need. Barb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PariSarah Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 But I would probably fight very hard against that law, before and after it was enacted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdWTMer Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Just like tollroads, do they ever really go away? Hee hee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
percytruffle Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 But, I have seen statistics that show evidence that the education level of the parent does not influence the success of the homeschooling endeavor. (I would have to dig for a link to the study and don't have time to right now.) So, assuming this study is repeatable, on what basis would the government require this certification? It would seem arbitrary unless it could be proven that the educational level/certification of the parent would correlate with improved homeschooling results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdWTMer Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Here here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Well, hypothetically, it would be a non-issue for me because I am "qualified" insomuch as I have Ph.D. and in my Province that is undisputed as "qualified." I also don't have a beef against regulations requiring proof of a minimum level of adequacy for homeschooling parents to teach. IMO, the minimum adequacy would include a high school diploma, GED or equivalent. I also don't have a problem with your modified proposition of a credential for homeschoolers specifically. What would one have to do to get this credential though? A standardized exam? I've no problem with that, however that exam should be no less and no more thorough and difficult than the exam given for public school teaching certification. If it were put in an equitable manner like that, I'd have no complaint. But, again, this is hypothetical and quite far from likely. I think I smell some paranoia wafting around. (Just to clarify I'm not saying from you, Colleen). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelli in TN Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Realistically it would bring about the end of my homeschool journey. We would not be willing to go "underground". We would be faced with the choice of using our very, very inferior public schools or incurring a ginormous amount of debt to enroll them in my favorite classical Christian school. Either choice would be disasterous to us, either the loss of my children to a system that I have no confidence in, or being wiped out financially. I oppose the requirement of teaching credentials for homeschool parents because it will destroy what is important to my family, and because I know lots of other parents just like me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwinMominTX Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 First, I can't see it being anything cost prohibitive for my family. I blow money on silly stuff all the time, what's another one! :o Second, I can't imagine it would be difficult meeting the educational requirements as I have two masters degrees. Third, I am a rule follower and it might be fun to have a few more letters after my name (assuming I were into that). TK, BA, MA, MA, Cred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen Posted March 8, 2008 Author Share Posted March 8, 2008 No, I don't need a certificate that says I can teach my children. I understand. Are there other laws with which you do comply even though you feel you don't "need" them? Or, conversely, are there laws by which you don't abide based on that reasoning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I would guess that if this really were to become law, some enterprising college would make a certification program that was designed for homeschoolers: distance learning, minimal cost, minimal effort (despite multiple ages/subjects), etc. And--heaven help us--maybe including material that would actually be useful to homeschoolers--no classroom management, but ideas on how to keep toddlers busy! Just a thought. which colleges are a part of, would make it easier or more cost effective for homeschoolers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracey in TX Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 As this is a purely hypothetical conversation, I believe some religious organization in conjunction with tens of thousand homeschool parents would form a virtual university enabling teachers to become certified, or at least qualified to take a state certification. I'm already certified, and to teach high school will require 1-2 additional tests. While I don't dispute the government desiring qualified individuals teaching tomorrow's leaders, it seems hypocritical to test parents who teach their children when the overall school system isn't working well. Why not encourage homeschooling? It frees up the schools to allow a lower student-teacher ratio; saves money for the state. Parents have the most to gain (or lose) with their children's education. A lot is at stake and most hs parents will do a much better job educating their child than The System. Yes, I would follow the recommendations and further my credentials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bess Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Why not encourage homeschooling? It frees up the schools to allow a lower student-teacher ratio; saves money for the state. Parents have the most to gain (or lose) with their children's education. A lot is at stake and most hs parents will do a much better job educating their child than The System. Yes, I would follow the recommendations and further my credentials. I would think the powers that be would not want to encourage homeschooling because most homeschoolers are not encouraging the type of "education" the state deems important... in fact, most homeschoolers teach the opposite. I could see how wanting to take control away from the parents would be attractive to those who lean towards socialism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaid Dad Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Like some of the other posters, I am "overqualified" in terms of my existing degrees and am confident that I could pass any sort of competence exam the government might throw at me. I would feel duty-bound (on religious grounds) to comply with a law that had been put in place by a legitimate government body and that had been found constitutional as long as it did not require me to commit what my faith defines as sin. BUT I would fight against any such legislation before it ever got to that point, using whatever (legal) means were available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 About whether I would follow such a law, I'd have to think about it! I'm an ornery sort, so my first instinct is to go underground. OTOH, my religion has a lot to say about following laws, so I'd probably have to squash my natural woman and go jump through a few hoops. :p Or my brother was recently tossing around the idea of trying to open up a classical charter school around here...maybe I'd do that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 If it were as easy to get as it is to get a VA teaching certificate, then yes, I probably would. I already have an ed degree. All that's needed to become a certified teacher in Va is a few pretty simple tests. People can take a 30 hour test prep class, take the tests and they're in, at least for a provisional license. I'm torn though, because I don't believe everyone who teaches homeschool is putting in the time required to do an adequate job--but I don't necessarily think getting a teaching cert. would help. On the other hand, I think a lot of non-homeschoolers don't realize that the curriculum choices nowadays make it relatively easy to school kids, even at the advanced levels. Look at Omnibus, for example--there is so much help available in those books that you don't even have to read the actual Great Books in order to teach them to your kiddos. Maybe you'd do a better job if you did read them, but you can do a pretty darned good job if you just follow the curriculum. Anyway, I don't want any hassles with the gov't. I just hope it never comes to needing a credential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 This is a really hard question. I'm almost at the point where I believe that the only reason a state would require this is so that they could feed you their worldview for 4-5 years. And it would never stop with teacher certification. The state would demand that you jumped through all their hoops. Would they begin to dictate what curriculum you use, what subjects you teach? Where does it stop? When do we stand up and say, "This is wrong and I will not comply to a law that takes away my freedoms as an American" When do we stand up and say, "Enough!" Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect liberty when the government's purposes are beneficent. Men born to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well meaning but without understanding. ~ Louis D. Brandeis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I would obey the law of the land. I do not have a college degree of any kind so it would be daunting to get myself educated enough to obey such a law. How about you Colleen? Would you obey the law or go underground? The only laws I do not obey are those that are in direct conflict with God's law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet in WA Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I wouldn't homeschool illegally. And I doubt that I'd go so far as to get a teaching credential in order to homeschool, unless there were some special "shortcut" credential available for homeschooling. It's not that I'd have a "beef" against it, it's just that it would be difficult to impossible for me to go back to college and earn a teaching credential in time for it to be of any use in homeschooling my children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Well, colleges tend to be more liberal in thought, in general, I think, than lower level educational institutions. They are currently throwing up more and more free, online courseware so that college level work is more readily available to all. And that directly cuts into their bottom line, so you'd think they wouldn't do that if they were really into self-preservation...... So yeah, I can see some enterprising college perhaps doing that. And that I could go for! Regena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Hey, I got my first negative rep. I feel so special. :p Wanna give me another. :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remudamom Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Hmm, we both have teaching degrees, they don't help us even one tiny bit or make us more/less qualified to teach and I would tell the powers that be what they could do with their requirements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Peregrine Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I understand. Are there other laws with which you do comply even though you feel you don't "need" them? Or, conversely, are there laws by which you don't abide based on that reasoning? Honestly, I can only think of one law that says I must do "x" if I want to do "Y" Using getting a driver's license as an example, in order to do "x"(drive a car legally) I must do "y"(pass the exam) In that case, I wanted to drive so I complied. So I can change my statement to 'I don't want a teaching credential in order to teach my children.' I never stated whether I would go underground or not. I don't know what I would do at this point. But no, I would not get the certificate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdWTMer Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I did too, hee hee. I was called a sheep with the comment of "Baa Baa" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelroper Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I didn't notice anyone chiming in from WA State: in order to comply in this state you must have one of these three things: a) a state certified teacher as your program monitor/mentor, b) take a six week teacher certification course on teaching, c) hold a higher ed degree. Any of these three qualify you. Most in my homeschool community meet this requirement. Our school district to my knowledge has never asked any one for proof. The states differ so much in so many ways, what their teaching certification requirements are, how long the certification lasts, the hoops to jump through to keep the certification, different certifications for different grade levels- my goodness... My brother taught Math at a private high school for awhile, he was not qualified for ps not sure why- he did take a few ed classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer in MI Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 I would not homeschool illegally. But, I would probably go through whatever hoops necessary to be able to legally teach my kids at home. I mean, even if they do come out with some sort of legislation like this, there'll have to be a grace period where current homeschooling parents can get certified, I'd imagine. I'd do it. If the demands on my time to get these credentials were just too high, or the cost prohibitive, I think dh and I would have to reconsider our commitment to homeschooling. I'd rather be a really involved mom of a ps student than a stressed out one who doesn't have time to be involved in her kids' lives! But, like most of you, I'll be fighting any legislation on this to the end! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 What would said teaching certificate require? If it was as simple as a GED-style test? If I could finish up my BA in English then be certified as a provisional teacher? Sure, I would do that. Would I go through a full-blown educational degree? No. Would I homeschool illegally? No, my husband is too high profile in the various military communities in which we live, it would be too much of a risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doran Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 But I would probably fight very hard against that law, before and after it was enacted. But, I'm toying mentally with how far I'd take my fight against such a law. I'm wondering if I, like the trail blazers before us, would feel my suffragette heritage bubble up inside me to the point that I'd actually be willing to be taken to court or have my children 'forcibly' put into school while my name got splashed all over the newspapers. I'm not imagining this from a fame and glory standpoint -- just from the perspective of how far I'd go to stake my claim to something I feel is rightfully mine. Doran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer in MI Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Just curious - What are the requirements of a private school teacher? I thought they didn't have to be certified teachers. Do they even have to have degrees in the subjects they teach? Oh - and Colleen - what would you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 If it was easy to do--no more than a year's commitment a couple nights a week and we could hs in the meantime I'd get the certificate. If it was more than that or I would have to enroll ds in the meantime-no. We would probably leave the country. It's not that I'm a die-hard no government involvement in education type, it's that I've seen ps in action with ds and I wouldn't want to see him regress that much. We've put in a lot of hours keeping him on par academically and working to improve his social skills to lose all that when he's stuck in a contained classroom with mainly non-verbal kids (and yes, that's what our fine ps offered :mad:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate CA Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Tossing this out there for the sake of discussion. Let's say, hypothetically, homeschooling parents were required by law to gain teaching credentials. (This is purely hypothetically. I don't foresee this happening, regardless of the current drama in CA.) Would you abide by such a law? Those of you who would "go underground", so to speak, what's your beef against such a requirement? (I am not looking for red herring arguments e.g. lamenting the fact that some credentialed teachers do a poor job, etc.) Those of you who would follow such requirements, please share your three pennies, too. Well, what it takes to obtain a teaching credential in CA is this: "A certified teacher needs a four-year college degree PLUS a graduate study program for a teaching credential. It's about 30 units for the preliminary credential and another 12-15 units to "clear" the credential. A lot of time and money. Not to mention to student teaching for no pay. There are also a few state examinations involved." (This is quoted to me from a friend who has one.) I don't believe that parents who wish to homeschool their own children should be required to obtain one. I think the whole idea begs the question of whether such a credential equips a teacher to teach any better than one without. You know me too well to think I would ever support such legislation. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelroper Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 object to the three options in WA? I have no idea what the WA 6 week certification for homeschooling is like. It is short. do not know the cost either. I belive private schools can hire anyone they deem fit. Which makes more sense, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorna in the boonies Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Well, I'm certified for all subjects K-12, provided my students are in special education. My area of concentration is Learning Disabilities, but my certificate says something along the lines of "Special Education -- General" (I haven't looked at it in several years, so I may not have the wording exactly right). I'm also certified K-8 in regular education, so high school would be my only real concern. I suppose I'd just figure out some way to qualify my kids as special ed, and then I'd be home free? Maybe? (My oldest two kids were both in the gifted program before we pulled them out to homeschool, and that is considered special education.) I don't know if it would fly or not, but that would certainly be my first course of action! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 WA homeschoolers only need 45 college credits or to take a homeschool cert. course. Its not 6 weeks. In fact, it varies depending on the institution or person giving it. I just looked up one course that was 2 days long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheilaZ Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Only if my state required public school teachers to actually have teaching degrees. I taught in my state with a provisional degree. I have a BS in biology and I was certified in another state. However, I never completed the work for my state's certification. But I taught other people's children. I can understand needing credentials to work with other people's children....but to require credentials for me to work with my own children....no way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pixelroper Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 WA homeschoolers only need 45 college credits or to take a homeschool cert. course. Its not 6 weeks. In fact, it varies depending on the institution or person giving it. I just looked up one course that was 2 days long. I thought what was offered here was the same state wide, must be so many hours. has anyone ever taken it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plucky Posted March 8, 2008 Share Posted March 8, 2008 Not I. But I've heard from people that have taken it that it helped them immensely with homeschooling. The instructors are usually former homeschoolers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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