What are the benefits of doing a GB study as opposed to traditional route?

[SS in MD]

Hello all!

Our oldest dd is starting 8th grade in the fall, so I'm finalizing curriculum plans for her and other dc, so while I'm planning I'm looking ahead to high school and trying to lay out a "general" plan for it as well.

 

We follow a wtm methodology for history (4 yr cycle), but frankly Great Books scare me! I haven't read all those classics and dd really needs to mature her writing for all the essays (I've been looking at Omnibus, Great Books tutorials online, and WTM).

 

From posts I'm read on this board, and some of my other friends are following a traditional history plan (using Notgrass, BJU or whatever). Feel like *I* am more in my comfort zone dong this (the way I did when I was in hs)...LOL!

 

I'd like to know what are the benefits of doing a GB study as opposed to a traditional route?? The GB books look great, but I am concerned about dds ability and my ability!!! LOL!

 

Any advice you can give would be SO helpful! :)

[Michelle in AL]

I was afraid of GB too, that's why I avoided them until my oldest was entering 9th grade. Then I forced myself to read a couple and while they were somewhat difficult to read, they were really enjoyable! We started with ancients.

 

I can tell you what reading great books has done for me and hopefully what it has also done for my kids: I truly appreciate beautiful writing. When I read most modern books now, I really notice the lower level of writing.

 

I appreciate the issues the GB have forced us to discuss.

 

I think it enriched our vocabulary.

 

They challenged us to learn more and my kids needed that challenge. GB's do require some effort on my part in order to be able to discuss/teach them well, but it's made me a better teacher.

 

How to Read Literature Like a Professor really helped me to understand and appreciate analysis. If you decide to go with GB, I would highly recommend reading this first.

 

Secondly, the Well Educated Mind is a great resource to use for discussion/analysis. I would recommend reading the introductory chapters and then skipping ahead to the chapter that applies to what you're reading.

 

Maybe you could just try a book or two and see how you feel? The traditional route has worked well for many too.

[SS in MD]

Michelle,

 

Thanks for your post!! I feel like I'm not alone feeling this way!

 

So, did you read the books you read the GB books ahead of dc? Or while she was reading them? Also, looks like you used Omnibus, how did that go? Did you use it online or not?

 

Also, what writing curriculum did you use in 8th and on to hs? I feel though my dd likes to write (in particular creative writing) she is week in essays, expository, persuasive. She needs to mature her writing. Any thoughts or advice on this?

 

Thanks for the book suggesting (Reading like a prof, and Well Educ Mind). I will definately read them...! I can use all the help I can get! LOL!

 

Thanks again for your advice,

Sangita

dd(13), dd(11), dd(8), ds(5)

[jibaker103]

Michelle,

 

Thanks for your post!! I feel like I'm not alone feeling this way!

 

So, did you read the books you read the GB books ahead of dc? Or while she was reading them? Also, looks like you used Omnibus, how did that go? Did you use it online or not?

 

Also, what writing curriculum did you use in 8th and on to hs? I feel though my dd likes to write (in particular creative writing) she is week in essays, expository, persuasive. She needs to mature her writing. Any thoughts or advice on this?

 

Thanks for the book suggesting (Reading like a prof, and Well Educ Mind). I will definately read them...! I can use all the help I can get! LOL!

 

Thanks again for your advice,

Sangita

dd(13), dd(11), dd(8), ds(5)

I'm scared too not to mention my ds is not mature enough to handle literary analysis although he can read at that level. I made a plan to incorporate both traditional and GB building gently starting in 8th grade. You can find it under "Advice on Literary Analysis Plan" in this section of the board (sorry don't know how to link). It might be something you can use.

 

Jennifer

Mother to Noah Age 13

[Orthodox6]

The "Great Books" are not scary. The real decision is whether you believe that type of education is what you want your children to have, or whether you believe something else will provide the academic/philosophical/practical/spiritual/etc. education and outlook which you want for them. That takes some serious introspection and wrestling with issues.

[Michelle in AL]

Hi Jennifer, I did read ahead of my kids to make sure I could do this. Now I read ahead to be sure the book is something I want to include. Several of the books have mature themes or sections that I didn't want my kids to read or that we needed to discuss ahead of time. Some of the books were a little too dry or long. I wanted to be sure we were getting the best of the best.

 

I did use Omnibus, but tweaked it so much and added so much to it that it wasn't the same in the end as just using it. It is a very good curriculum though and can be done as is. It has a very religious worldview that is reformed which may bother some. There are many good study guides and GB programs out there.

 

We did not use the online version of Omnibus. They cover all of the books and I didn't want my kids to rush through them under the pressure of someone else's schedule.

 

I used Write with the Best Vol 1 for writing and applied it to the secondary books in Omnibus instead of using the samples in Write with the Best. It is a great curriculum and I taught it to a co-op class and they all really wrote well with it.

 

Here's the books we covered:

Epic of Gilgamesh by David Ferry (there are 2 scenes that involve s*xuality in this)

The Old Testament Genesis-2 Kings.

The Odyssey

The Histories of Herodotus Books 1-7 only

Oresteia

Plutarch's Lives~portions only of a middle school version at Ambleside online. There are some graphic portions, we didn't cover those.

Oedipus the King

Oedipus at Colonus

Antigone

The Aeneid

The Last Days of Socrates

 

 

Till We Have Faces

The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe

The Magician's NEphew

The Horse and His Boy

Prince Caspian

The Voyage of the Dawn Treader

The Silver Chair

The Last Battle

The Screwtape Letters

[Susan C.]

Hello all!

Our oldest dd is starting 8th grade in the fall, so I'm finalizing curriculum plans for her and other dc, so while I'm planning I'm looking ahead to high school and trying to lay out a "general" plan for it as well.

 

We follow a wtm methodology for history (4 yr cycle), but frankly Great Books scare me! I haven't read all those classics and dd really needs to mature her writing for all the essays (I've been looking at Omnibus, Great Books tutorials online, and WTM).

 

From posts I'm read on this board, and some of my other friends are following a traditional history plan (using Notgrass, BJU or whatever). Feel like *I* am more in my comfort zone dong this (the way I did when I was in hs)...LOL!

 

I'd like to know what are the benefits of doing a GB study as opposed to a traditional route?? The GB books look great, but I am concerned about dds ability and my ability!!! LOL!

 

Any advice you can give would be SO helpful! :)

 

Hi,

I always dreamed of doing the book route for homeschooling. I ended up adding the books into more traditional curriculum because life simply got in the way! (We did manage to do a few Beautiful Feet courses with some/most of their suggestions, I jokingly call it BF light!). For me, the last three years have been hectic, and I haven't had time to read the books/prepare what we will do with them. For homeschooling to run smoothly, curriculum has to run itself and only require oversight from me, and no more than an hour or two a day of my time. (But I do a lot of prep time up front in the summer, mostly making sure what I pick can run itself).

 

Here is a list of traditional texts we have enjoyed:

 

7th grade literature text and writing/grammar workbook, BJU (dd used for 8th grade, no dvds)

A Beka World Literature, American Literature, English Literature (10th-12th texts, no dvds, ds used these, dd using World this yr.)

BJU British Literature w/DVDs (excellent, ds used for 2nd yr. Brit.)

 

Writing & Grammar workbooks, 9th-12th grades, BJU, no dvd.

 

You could do any of these lit. books over two years and insert whole books. For 8th, you could read whole books on her level, and get the A Beka 10th in 9th grade and do it over 2 yrs. inserting books in each time period. Then you would have the benefit of the literary analysis instruction. Your 8th grader should be able to do the 9th, if not, you could do Easy Grammar. The BJU books have very good writing instruction, what I like about the workbooks is that everything is covered, kids just need to do a 3-4 pages each day. My son did A Beka writing/grammar for 10th grade, it was also good, the A Beka 11th was very condensed.

 

I mixed history with whole books and textbooks, we did:

 

Beautiful Feet Ancient, Jr. High US & World to Civil War, High School US & World Civil war to present. The last set is HUGE, I called and asked them to condense it into a year. Our spine was the Hakim series.

BJU World History, American Government, Ecomonics (son didn't like US, but I plan on trying it with daughter, and not sure about Ecomonics, it was very advanced, may do A Beka Ecomonics for daughter)

BJU World Geography, 9th grade text (you could start this a year early if you need geography, wish I had, then you could split the World into 2 years). The sequence would be starting in 8th grade: Geog, World, World, US, govt/econ. If you did this, I would put the A Beka World Lit. over 2 yrs. with the World History.

 

I hope this helps!

Susan

[Lori D.]

Michelle did a beautiful job of describing some of the benefits of a Great Books study, and Susan C. showed how easy it is to incorporate a Great Books study into how YOU school.

I just wanted to add that a Great Books study looks different in each person's home. Ours is not very formal compared to The Well Educated Mind. We don't annotate. We don't read a work more than once. We do read aloud all together, and discuss together in the moment. Our discussions are comparisons to films and TV show themes, characters and plots; we point out worldviews; we compare to current events and culture; we share passages that stood out to us. We use study guides and lit. guides to give us background info and help jump start us with discussion questions. I don't tend to read the works in advance (although I do tend to skim ahead in the lit. guides to have a few initial ideas of things to look for as we read); our 2 DSs and myself have had the greatest time having the adventure of journeying through The Great Books together. :)

 

some of my other friends are following a traditional history plan (using Notgrass, BJU or whatever). Feel like *I* am more in my comfort zone dong this (the way I did when I was in hs)...LOL!

 

I think most of us who do Great Books, do use a standard history text or program, and then do classic literature (using lit. guides or programs) that often (but not always) "matches" up with the historical time frame. Some programs such as Omnibus are both history and lit. in one. Just wanted to encourage you that most of us doing The Great Books *are* using traditional materials -- just going more in depth in discussing the literature. :)

And you don't have to do a Great Books study with ALL your literature. Maybe just do it with one book a year in addition to a prepared program, as Susan C. suggested. Spend just 10 minutes a week getting familiar with literary elements with a resource such as Figuratively Speaking, and then have fun looking for those literary elements in whatever books you're reading. Enjoy a great lit. program such as Literary Lessons from the Lord of the Rings, or Lightning Literature & Composition 7 and/or 8 to get you reading, thinking about and enjoying discussing the classics. Pick Great Books that you know your students will like -- don't torture yourselves by starting off with something that is too difficult, foreign, obscure, or emotionally removed to be able to get into it. Go for an adventure, and do it together! :)

 

I'd like to know what are the benefits of doing a GB study as opposed to a traditional route?? The GB books look great, but I am concerned about dds ability and my ability!!! LOL!

This past thread has some wonderful benefits of doing a GB study vs. traditional route: Tell Me About Your Traditional Lit/History High School Courses.

And below are some more past threads you may find helpful as you think about what your own Great Books study might look like. Enjoy your literature journey! Warmest regards, Lori D.

In this thread, see how several families actually "do" a Great Book study: Doing Literature with My 9th Grader.

More great past threads on why people do The Great Books; how they adapt it to fit their own families; and encouragement to those considering doing The Great Books:
I Don't Think We're Cut Out For The Great Books
Tell Me I Really Can Do WTM for High School at Home
Does Anyone Do High School History/Lit ala WTM?
Just Reading vs. Literature Guides
Doing TWTM with a High School Student Who Isn't Ready for Rhetoric Level

Past post in which lots of ladies contributed to an almost "online version" of a Great Books discussion, so you can see how fun, interesting, and helpful a Great Books study can be: Sir Gawain and the Green Knight -- Need Input Please

Edited April 25, 2015 by Lori D.
added info

[Michelle in AL]

Like Lori, my girls don't annotate and we never read a book more than once (we do have a life). I do jot down notes to myself in a journal if I read ahead so I'll remember them later.

[SS in MD]

Thank you ladies for your wonderful input. It's been really helpful. I feel better about not pursueing a full blown out Great Books studay (whew!) and its OK... I think we'll try a few Great Books this year along with our history spine (whatever that will be...)

 

BTW, Do you think Western Civilization is good for 8th grade or should I find something a little easier? How does Human Odyssey compare?/

 

Thank you all!

[jibaker103]

Thank you ladies for your wonderful input. It's been really helpful. I feel better about not pursueing a full blown out Great Books studay (whew!) and its OK... I think we'll try a few Great Books this year along with our history spine (whatever that will be...)

 

BTW, Do you think Western Civilization is good for 8th grade or should I find something a little easier? How does Human Odyssey compare?/

 

Thank you all!

HO is a perfect fit for my ds, starting 8th grade, who reads at the 11th grade level.

 

Jennifer

Mother to Noah Age 13

[SS in MD]

Jennifer,

 

About HO, will you add anything to it?

 

Thanks

[jibaker103]

Jennifer,

 

About HO, will you add anything to it?

 

Thanks

At first I wasn't, going strictly TWTM, but I could not pass up Beautiful Feet. So I'm including BF Ancients & Medieval, Book list from TWTM & Sonlight, Trail Guide to World Geography, and will incorporate TWTM where I think necessary, such as the notebook.

 

Jennifer

Mother to Noah Age 13

[danielle]

We've done WTM style rotation since 2nd grade now and dd has just finished up 9th grade. I used to read everything ahead of her, but it just got overwhelming. This year I gave her a list (Ancients) and she had to pick out at least 15 works from the 25 or so I came up with, plus appropriate sections in Spielvogel and New Lifetime Reading Plan. We also watched the Teaching Company Great Authors of the Western Literary Tradition, which was great for introducing the works she was reading, and giving her at least some background for works she wasn't, even if she was reading something else by the author. For a little more history, we watched the Western Tradition from Annenberg/CPB.

 

By high school, I think it's really valuable for the kid to learn how to learn on their own, with discussion from other people when possible. Even if you haven't read the work, the child should be able to discuss the ideas with you after describing what the book said. For example, was Herodotus naive? Are all travelers filtering what they see through their own frame of reference? You get the idea--just come up with some interesting questions. Or have them write a short paper, and if you understand it, voila, they've learned about communicating ideas to an "ignorant" audience. I just posted on my blog some more discussion on what I couldn't stand to read.

 

I would love to have the time to read the 30-50 pages of GB my daughter reads. Education is so wasted on the young!

Danielle

[SS in MD]

Jennifer,

 

Thanks! I've been looking at BF Medieval as well and famous men series. I would love to hear how you plan to include BF into HO... I've looked at so many curriculums my head is spinning! LOL..

 

Thank you again!

[danielle]

One more idea--we made 8th grade our Shakespeare year. Looking ahead and following the WTM rotation in high school, I didn't see how dd would have the time to read more than a play or two, so we did 100% Shakespeare in 8th. She read 8 plays, and we watched at least one film version of each play. For example, Macbeth: we watched the Polanski version and the Japanese Throne of Blood (my favorite). for Hamlet, Mel Gibson, Kenneth Branaugh, and Rosencrantz & Guildenstern. You get the idea. No movies allowed unless play was read. Then we talked about the differences, read some background on Shakespeare, and listened to a few Harold Bloom lectures and selected ones from Teaching Company.

 

This was fairly easy on yours truly as I'd had a college class where we read 16 plays in a semester (and all the sonnets). however, the sneaky truth is that plays are a lot faster read than, say, the Iliad and it's easier to keep up.

 

DD has a pretty solid grasp on Shakespeare. I do think it's important to remember that a college bound kid is going to encounter this stuff all again, and we're not the last word on it all. Because of where we live, and because she plays in a youth orchestra, I get to hear from other teens and parents from top public and private schools. So far I haven't met anyone who has done more than we have, or even as much as we have. Haven't broken my arm patting myself on the back yet, but close. :001_smile:

Danielle

[SS in MD]

Danielle,

 

Thanks for both the posts - great ideas! I honestly never read Shakespeare in college (well maybe 1 or 2) I was a comp sci major. Did you have her do any writing during her Shakespear year? I guess I feel a little "unskilled" in discussing works I haven't read, yet I know I won't have the time to keep up with dd GB reading.

 

Thanks again

[jibaker103]

Jennifer,

 

Thanks! I've been looking at BF Medieval as well and famous men series. I would love to hear how you plan to include BF into HO... I've looked at so many curriculums my head is spinning! LOL..

 

Thank you again!

Is there something specific you want to know or just generally what I plan to do?

 

Jennifer

Mother to Noah Age 13

[Kathie in VA]

I'm planning our first GB study for this year for my rising 9th gr dd and 8th gr ds. ... (For my rising 4th grade ds I'll offer some of the retellings so he can be somewhat involved. We did that before with the olders reading a retelling of Beowolf and the little guy reading Wishbone's Be A Wolf... it was a fun way to pull us all together.) Anyway, I thought the orginal Q was a good one. Some traditional lit studies only read parts of lit, I'd prefer to read the whole piece... but that's not all traditional lit. There are some that read the whole lit piece. I think you can learn lots either way. You can learn about lit terminology either way, you can become familiar with various genres either way, you can read authors from all over the world and timezones either way. I've read the GB methods in the WTM and even read the beginning of the WEM. I really like the method used there. It seems to really teach how to learn. However this still can be applied to any book. So why did I still choose a GB study? Not because it's harder, I have 4 kids to teach.. I don't want hard just for hard sake or for the 'look what we did' sake. I like the idea of learning/teaching the roots of ideas. It seems so much has come from these GB that I feel like I've missed out by not reading them. They say that you can quickly see the ideas of these books expressed in later literature, government documents, etc. I guess it will be kinda like learning the roots of words and using that info to decifer unfamiliar words later on.

 

Well that's my 2 cents at this point. Perhaps I should re-read this later this year and post again? :D

[danielle]

Danielle,

 

Thanks for both the posts - great ideas! I honestly never read Shakespeare in college (well maybe 1 or 2) I was a comp sci major. Did you have her do any writing during her Shakespear year? I guess I feel a little "unskilled" in discussing works I haven't read, yet I know I won't have the time to keep up with dd GB reading.

 

Thanks again

I did have her do 2 writings--she was supposed to do more, but...She is big time into writing fiction, and I asked her to take a character from one of the plays and write a story based on it.(I gave her essay topics too, but of course she chose fiction) She chose Duncan's mother's thoughts at the moment of his birth (pretty macabre)--as she's dying. The other one was about the confused reasoning going on in Ophelia's head as she decides to drown herself. In fact, that was pretty macabre too. Well, at least she got into the plays, and related them to something meaningful.

 

I always give her a bunch of topics to choose from. Over the last few years, it's given me real insight into my child, as well as writing practice. If you can think up questions that will engage them, you don't have to read the works, just be able to discuss the larger ideas. I did read the Iliad this year, but we had a great discussion on who was the bigger hero, Achilles or Hector, and who did the Greeks think was the bigger hero. Also, whose death was a tragedy? You can think that up from the "Cliff's notes"!

Danielle

[Guest tcurry_AK]

Great Books education should not scare anyone who can read. It is all paced to be read by students, in their grade levels. The Bible is a Great Book. All Great Books programs include some parts of it. But also Homer, Virgil, Dante, Chaucer, Shakespeare and the rest of the finest works ever written. While our generation was deprived of this for the most part, we certainly do not want that to happen to our children - at least I don't. My kids are all either doing the Great Books Academy Program (greatbooksacademy.org) or are already in the Great Books part of it (9th-12th grade) and absolutely love it - except that they do have to work some, mostly by reading. They cannot do 3 hours of TV a night and read too. Take the time to read the site - it really is the best program out there if you want more than the basics.:001_smile:

____________________________________

Teresa

[Second Time Around]

Great Books education should not scare anyone who can read. It is all paced to be read by students, in their grade levels. The Bible is a Great Book. All Great Books programs include some parts of it. But also Homer, Virgil, Dante, Chaucer, Shakespeare and the rest of the finest works ever written. While our generation was deprived of this for the most part, we certainly do not want that to happen to our children - at least I don't. My kids are all either doing the Great Books Academy Program (greatbooksacademy.org) or are already in the Great Books part of it (9th-12th grade) and absolutely love it - except that they do have to work some, mostly by reading. They cannot do 3 hours of TV a night and read too. Take the time to read the site - it really is the best program out there if you want more than the basics.:001_smile:

____________________________________

Teresa

Have to agree that this is a great program. I don't think most people will have the opportunity to study this much, so intensively for most of their lives (unless they homeschool their kids that is!) - not even at the college level unless they attend a 4 year Great Books College program. My eldest did the first two years of this for college credit and he considers it to be the highlight of his highschool experience. He later went to a residential public school for the gifted located on a college campus where the students have dual credits coming out of their ears. They also tried to do a sort of Great Books program but it was no where near the standard he had already experienced two years earlier.