Healthcare reform bill

[MomLovesClassics]

I remember when my mom's husband lost his job, they were able to keep their health insurance for a while. When the time limit ran out the insurance company wanted to charge them $4000 a month. I found that odd because their income was half that. And this was more than 8 years ago. Of course they both had health problems that were mostly self inflicted, liver problems from alcohol abuse, and lung problems from smoking. Now how is health insurance that is twice the amount of your income affordable?? Yes I admit we don't have it, I don't even think we can get it anymore. Oh and I will give an example, my husband applied to get a job driving a school bus. there are regulations in my state that keep you from getting a job driving a school bus if you have diabetes. If you have a preexisting condition, no one wants to hire you. Insurance companies do reviews when they see that certain patients are using the system too much. They look for ways to get that person out of the pool. It is not honest but it happens more than we care to admit. and we sit here and say how irresponsible people are who do not have health insurance. Gee, I would just like the luxury of being able to buy my husband a bottle of insulin and pay what those with insurance pay! i would love the luxury of having a $400 a month policy for my family instead of them asking for all my husbands salary, I would love not not be ripped off just for taking my kids for a check up or tooth cleaning. Health care cost my family a lot of money, but my family is not good enough for the insurance companies, they don't want us! So keep telling me how irresponsibe my family is, and how we can afford health insurance. My husband works hard, and we pay for our health care we just don't have health insurance. His life insurance policy is more than our monthy electricity bill.

I do not want governemt run health care. That I can not trust.

[HappyGrace]

And then SFP posted a link (that I will not repost) that showed that this isn't true.

 

This particular bill may not say that, but the fact that the bill explicitly says they are going to tax those who CHOOSE not to have health insurance tells me that they ARE going to take away our choices eventually. Eventually it will be done so that you cannot have private health insurance, either by writ or by so heavily taxing those who choose to have it that it becomes impractical/impossible, or some other way-have no doubt about that.

 

They are not so stupid as to try this all at once; they will do it like the frog in the pot of water-it stays in the nice cool water and they turn up the heat by such small degrees it doesn't notice or try to get out til it's boiling and cannot get out.

Edited July 18, 2009 by HappyGrace

[MomLovesClassics]

I remember when my mom's husband lost his job, they were able to keep their health insurance for a while. When the time limit ran out the insurance company wanted to charge them $4000 a month. I found that odd because their income was half that. And this was more than 8 years ago. Of course they both had health problems that were mostly self inflicted, liver problems from alcohol abuse, and lung problems from smoking. Now how is health insurance that is twice the amount of your income affordable?? Yes I admit we don't have it, I don't even think we can get it anymore. Oh and I will give an example, my husband applied to get a job driving a school bus. there are regulations in my state that keep you from getting a job driving a school bus if you have diabetes. If you have a preexisting condition, no one wants to hire you. Insurance companies do reviews when they see that certain patients are using the system too much. They look for ways to get that person out of the pool. It is not honest but it happens more than we care to admit. and we sit here and say how irresponsible people are who do not have health insurance. Gee, I would just like the luxury of being able to buy my husband a bottle of insulin and pay what those with insurance pay! i would love the luxury of having a $400 a month policy for my family instead of them asking for all my husbands salary, I would love not not be ripped off just for taking my kids for a check up or tooth cleaning. Health care cost my family a lot of money, but my family is not good enough for the insurance companies, they don't want us! So keep telling me how irresponsibe my family is, and how we can afford health insurance. My husband works hard, and we pay for our health care we just don't have health insurance. His life insurance policy is more than our monthy electricity bill.

I do not want governemt run health care. That I can not trust.

I say this because there is a misconception that those without health insurance waste their money of hobbies and the like, I can assure you that is not the case here. You are welcome to come see my 8 year old vehicle, and my old ratty furniture, my 15 year old purse, etc. My kids don't have the luxury of going to daily, or weekly lessons for that matter. so it really gets on my nerves when people insist you must get health insurance, and if you don't you are doing something wrong, or you waste your money on luxuries. Yes I have the luxury of computer service. I don't see how that could pay for health insurance though. You show me a $20 a month policy for my family and I will drop this luxury.

[cdrumm4448]

I do not want to pay for your health insurance. I already contribute to Medicare and Medicaid, in addition to paying for my family's health insurance. That's on top of all the other required contributions such as Social Security, Income Tax, etc. The harder my husband and I work, the more the government takes.

 

The growing sense of entitlement in this country is exactly what the government wants. They take our money, spend it, and then look for ways to take and spend more. Things you think are free aren't really free. The average American is paying for them. And that would be me.

[Kari C in SC]

it's called a job.

 

Yes, there will always be people who can't work and there should be provisions for those people to be cared for. But I have worked my butt off since I was 15 years old. I have never and would never take a job that didn't offer health insurance. Yes, I have made good decisions in my life that didn't prevent me from getting an education, but I also have done and will do whatever I have to do to remain competitive and get those better-paying jobs with great benefits, good healthcare being one of them.

 

This country was founded on the premise of work to get ahead, not government care. I have contacted my representatives to tell them I reject this legislation and I urge you to do the same.

 

I love this country because it is a capitalist system. The aggressive hard-worker is usually rewarded. But, the impending socialist reforms will do nothing but destroy it.

 

Many small business employers do not offer health insurance and are not required to.

[Mommyof4ks]

Show me a country where it works wonderfully. I can't find one. All of these proposed tax increases are going to force a revolution in this country. We are sick to death of working to get ahead and have the government tax the daylights out of us to give our money to someone else to spend. And we aren't rich, don't own toys, don't have a vacation home. We own our home, have two paid-for (10- and 11-year-old) cars, and would be happy going out to dinner once a month. There will always be people in need who are a draw on the system, but why put EVERYONE on the system, to be dependent on the government?

 

I don't want it, won't have it, and will fight it with every breath in my body.

 

Oh no, I was not saying it works great in other countries (that's why I used the word may), but there are others on this board that say it works for them in their country. For them that is great, but not for us and our country. I will be broke paying for things that the gov't does not see as necessary if we are forced into a gov't health ins. plan. Sorry for the confusion.

[OHGrandma]

I think the point is that Medicaid is already in place. You try taking away an entitlement program and see what happens. People never want to give up what they have already been receiving, and are now counting on. I just don't want to add to the already terrible tax problem in this country by adding a program that most don't want, don't see as beneficial, and will end up costing them more money in the end.

 

I'd like to comment about Medicaid. A couple years ago, my daughter was employed at a job with no insurance, so she got either the state health insurance or Medicaid coverage on her daughters. At ages 4.5 & 7, both children got glasses. This year, through her own insurance coverage, she took her girls to a different eye dr. She said they didn't need glasses, & couldn't see how they would have needed them earlier -- but drs who accept medicaid got paid more when they prescribed glasses!

This is what I see as the future if we go to gov't run health insurance.

[nmoira]

 

Obama is the biggest liberal since JFK, and look what happened to him.

Are you saying what I think you're saying?

[HappyGrace]

Many small business employers do not offer health insurance and are not required to.

 

See, that is the whole problem-WHY should they be required to do so? As cdrumm said, she doesn't choose to work at places that don't offer health insurance-she chooses to work harder to have the skills necessary to avoid this. Other people do choose to work at such places, and that is their freedom of choice. And it is the up to company's discretion as to whether or not to offer it. We have the freedom of choice to do all this, and we do not want it taken away!

Edited July 18, 2009 by HappyGrace

[Colleen in NS]

even if we go with the premise that those countries have been able to come up with gov't run care that is in some ways acceptable, THIS country has proven over and over that it CANNOT run health care efficiently in the areas it has tried (VA, Medicare, Medicaid, etc.)

 

I hear you, and I think that for some people living in the States, it may be a scary proposition because of all the other problems in the U.S.. My intention in posting was to say that in Canada, I don't think we have the situation that Americans are afraid of, as was implied previously.

[HappyGrace]

I hear you, and I think that for some people living in the States, it may be a scary proposition because of all the other problems in the U.S.. My intention in posting was to say that in Canada, I don't think we have the situation that Americans are afraid of, as was implied previously.

 

Thanks, Colleen. I had just wanted to point out to people that we can't really ultimately look to how other countries are doing this-for good or for bad-because looking at the track record HERE is enough to know the truth of what would happen in THIS country with this.

[Tree House Academy]

Do you have a reference for this? I googled, and found an old case (1995) where a city limited families to 2 dogs. It was eventually found invalid. There are some local ordinances limiting number of pets. I can't find anything statewide though.

 

My husband was in Minneapolis last week and it was on their local news. He is the one who relayed it me as we were talking on the phone. I think it was Tuesday night.

[Holly IN]

I'm curious how you got from this:

 

 

 

To this:

 

 

 

Do you have a source for what they mean by "end of life counseling"? Why do you think this means the elderly won't get their health care needs met?

 

Obviously, what I think of when I see "end of life counseling" is not what you are thinking. So I'd like to see what the writers of that provision were thinking.

 

The wording of this means "they will kill you if you are too old" so this is in preparation for the "killing of old people". Remember what Obama said about the elderly woman needing a pacemaker then her life is prolonged by 8 years and she is still living. He said that she is really too old to have a pacemaker. :001_huh:

 

He said this in an interview just recently.

 

Holly

[Cricket]

I haven't read all of the responses here but I thought I may as well through mine in here. I haven't read the bill and I probably won't. I don't think it matters. It won't address what I think is the fundamental problem with our system. Our system is too expensive. I don't think the government taking over will change anything. We already don't have a choice in what insurance we can get. You either take what your employer offers, buy your own (not many can afford that) or go without. Unless we change how we view doctors it will only get more expensive. Right now there is a middleman between us and our doctor. All this bill will do is change who that middleman is. At least if it is the government we can vote people out to get change. We don't have that option under our current system.

 

The way my simple brain sees it is that we as Americans are spoiled. We expect too much from our medical professionals. We want to eat McDonalds several times a week, drink sodas that contain chemicals and basically poison our bodies with all the non-foods that we eat and then demand that our doctors cure us of the ills caused by our lousy diets. We want to run to the doctor and get a magic pill to prevent any discomfort. There is a pill for everything nowdays it seems. We run to the doctor every time we get a sniffle. I've seen ads for a cream to grow thicker, darker eyelashes for heaven's sake!!! And don't get me started on Viagra. Women who can't have babies normally are suddenly giving birth to 6, 7 even 8 babies at a time. It seems to me we are asking the impossible from our health care system. Of course, these medical advances can have benefits to certain people. But to use these advances so widely and without much thought is ridiculous. Women are scared in normal pregnancies to opt for a homebirth. We've had it drilled into our heads that pregnant women must have invasive exams at every appointment, be induced and be hooked up to monitoring devices during labor...just in case. Every patient is different and doctors are not free to do what they think is best for each patient. They have to follow the same protocol for every one regardless of differing circumstances. To me it seems like there is too much waste. Too many are receiving medical help when they really don't need it. And too many who need it aren't getting it because the cost is too high.

 

So the way I see it, if people took more responsibility for their own healthcare, we would see change. If doctors were free to treat patients individually (like choosing to barter their skills as some midwives do or treating a poor patient for free), we would see change. If people had to pay for their own care (with maybe some type of insurance in case of long-term illness or very costly treatments like for cancer), we would see change. I don't see how having the government pay for our health care will fix anything. All it will do is put even more small businesses out of business, cause unemployment to rise and prevent more small businesses from opening. Because small business owners are who will have to pay for this.

[SFP]

The wording of this means "they will kill you if you are too old" so this is in preparation for the "killing of old people". Remember what Obama said about the elderly woman needing a pacemaker then her life is prolonged by 8 years and she is still living. He said that she is really too old to have a pacemaker. :001_huh:

 

He said this in an interview just recently.

 

 

 

No, he didn't. Someone edited down a reference he was making to his own grandmother, who was dying of cancer when she broke her hip and for whom there were concerns that she might not survive the surgery if she had it, to make it appear on the youtube clip that he was talking about the woman with the pacemaker.

[Melinda in VT]

The wording of this means "they will kill you if you are too old"

 

How do you know? It seems quite a leap to me. When I hear "end of life counseling" I think about things like talking about having a living will and whether or not you want a DNR. Good conversations that the elderly should be having with their medical professionals and family members.

 

Remember what Obama said about the elderly woman needing a pacemaker then her life is prolonged by 8 years and she is still living. He said that she is really too old to have a pacemaker. :001_huh:

 

He said this in an interview just recently.

 

Holly

 

SFP posted the quote in context, and that's not what he said.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I am truly amazed at how many think that our goverment never gets it right. I would suggest that our goverment does get it right with some of the public services it offers. I think that our military is a shining example of our goverment getting it right.:patriot:

 

I also think that our other socialist-like public service entities such as our police, fire fighters, and public libraries provide great services as well. Our goverment does have the capacity in my opinion to get it right at least some of the time.

 

 

I am also amazed that some seem to think that private business can do no wrong and that greed is not a problem. Our country has had to pick up the tab for many private companies that have misbehaved in the past.

 

I think a healthy capitalistic economy can co-exist with a social safety network of a public healthcare option. In fact, I think that many small businesses and large businesses will benefit without the crushing premiums for health care.

 

I pray that no one here has to face serious illness with or without health insurance. I cannot help but believe that many who are against a public health care option have not had to face the same.

[Sara R]

I also think that our other socialist-like public service entities such as our police, fire fighters, and public libraries provide great services as well. Our goverment does have the capacity in my opinion to get it right at least some of the time.

This is local government, not the feds.

 

I am also amazed that some seem to think that private business can do no wrong and that greed is not a problem. Our country has had to pick up the tab for many private companies that have misbehaved in the past.

 

Actually, they didn't have to. Those companies should have failed. It's not like bailing them out has helped the economy any so far. Now that toxic debt is on the government's balance sheet--and--repeat after me--the government is out of money. Do you see what's happening to California? That would be what is happening to the Feds if we had to keep a balanced budget, and if the dollar weren't the reserve currency. The Chinese have been propping up the value of our currency by devaluing their own (which makes them poorer). Once they decide to quit doing that, watch out!

 

I think a healthy capitalistic economy can co-exist with a social safety network of a public healthcare option. In fact, I think that many small businesses and large businesses will benefit without the crushing premiums for health care.

 

Explain exactly how having the feds in charge of health care will make it less expensive overall. Making health care less expensive will take massive psychological adjustment on behalf of all Americans; that is beyond the scope of this bill. If people perceive health care as "free," they will go to the doctor more. That will make the overall cost more expensive. The burden of additional massive taxes will be placed on the backs of businesses, many of which are already close to failure because of the economy. If businesses are paying huge taxes, they can't hire more people. How are we going to get out of the recession then?

 

I pray that no one here has to face serious illness with or without health insurance. I cannot help but believe that many who are against a public health care option have not had to face the same.

 

Ummmm...let's not make offensive assumptions please. [see signature] I just understand the big picture. The world does not revolve around me. Health care isn't provided by magic fairies. It costs money. This country's government, businesses, and families have far less money than they had 10 years ago. So we have to cut costs. That means tough decisions, and those decisions are better made by the individuals and families rather than the government.

[Cricket]

You don't have to read the entire bill. Just do a word search.

 

If only the bill was written that simply! :lol:

[BalanceSeeker]

I think it does work for the most part in other countries because they aren't as demanding as Americans are.

 

We do expect miracles from medicine in the US and therein lies the problem. We go so far as to sue when our dentist doesn't get all the cement off when placing a crown (I hear these stories from my paralegal friend).

 

This must change if socialized medicine is going to work, and we must stop abusing the system. Going to the ER for the common cold is wasteful, just as running someone through a CT scan for every little thing is. We must hold our practitioners to a high standard, but not an unobtainable one. We get nasty letters from patients all the time that they were unhappy with x,y,z...and we have an incredible facility with top-notch Dr.'s and nurses.

[Dirtroad]

The thing is that we do have to start making those decisions. Ideally there wouldn't be any socialized medicine and individuals would make that decision. If that 96 year old grandmother had the money, or her children did, then she would get the pacemaker. If not, or if they decided that wasn't a good use of money, then she wouldn't.

 

The problem is that right now, no one is making the tough decisions like that. I don't think government should either. But heroic medical care--pacemakers for 100 year olds and quintuple bypasses for 85 year olds,

 

I know many in their 80s in better health than others in thier 50s. That lady got her pacemaker & lived many more years (8-10....). There are people much younger who don't live that long. How can you say they are unworthy.... b/c they have lived healthy, productive lives.... b/c they aren't rich & some 50 year old deserves more.

 

I have NO RIGHT to say "your life isn't worth much".... you are too old... too mentally disabled.... too premature. Don't you see where this goes?

 

I am shocked that anyone would say "too bad, you aren't worth it".

[Dirtroad]

Might I suggest that everyone pull up the actual bill from the Library of Congress website and do an actual search for the info that various people here and in the media have claimed is contained within the bill? I find no mention of any "end of life" counseling, no mention that everyone will be switched over to the government plan within x-number of years instead of allowing them to have private insurance or to change their private insurance.

 

Pg 16 explains how coverage will shift from private to federal as soon as the first change in terms occurs.... now I don't know if that will be 1 year or 10... .but your private company can't stay in business keeping your plan static (and you can't get good coverage if it doesn't adjust & change)... so how long do you think it will take for us all to be pushed into the fed system?

 

Some of the counseling may be coming from the Obama quote about end of life & take your pain pill.

[asta]

Wow. I'd be careful spouting that last sentence too loudly. Seriously, you're liable to have some FBI agents showing up at your door some morning to "chat", you know, with the war on terrorists and such.

 

The automated key word searches wouldn't pick up on something phrased that way.

 

:glare:

[Dirtroad]

Many small business employers do not offer health insurance and are not required to.

 

But.... there are options..... find work with another company or self insure or pay your own way (like my brother does b/c he hates insurance companies & risks much for it).... still having options other than the government.

 

Small businesses often don't insure b/c they can't afford it. They can't buy it much cheaper than you can on your own.... my parents struggle with this. Also, many of their employees are part time and don't need it.

 

My husband had crap insurance at last job.... as soon as he could, he was out of there. It was a huge issue. We had to perservere & we didn't go to the doctor.... then, we jumped!

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I think a healthy capitalistic economy can co-exist with a social safety network of a public healthcare option. In fact, I think that many small businesses and large businesses will benefit without the crushing premiums for health care.

This I do know... our small family business will be gone if this bill passes. DH will no longer have a job. They will have to pay for healthcare and the money simply isn't there.

[Dirtroad]

No, he didn't. Someone edited down a reference he was making to his own grandmother, who was dying of cancer when she broke her hip and for whom there were concerns that she might not survive the surgery if she had it, to make it appear on the youtube clip that he was talking about the woman with the pacemaker.

 

I heard it on the news.. .not YouTube. It was cold & very informative.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

SFP posted the quote in context, and that's not what he said.

Link?

[Dirtroad]

Tort reform! Get rid of stupid lawsuits.... make it tough to sue and neglect must be obvious (drunk doctor, no degree, etc)

 

Shocking concept: Pay for your services... (just like for your car or computer or cellphone)... get insurance out of it & government out of it & you might be shocked to see how much prices go down (you won't see anymore $600 bandaids) When you are in charge of you bills, you are aware of scams & corruptions & cons!

 

ENTREPRENEURS step up! This country has always had inventors and developers.... and they often rise up in the worst or most difficult of times. Brainstorm! Research! Pull a team of great minds together! Develop a product to bridge the gap! Offer a product to those unemployed who are really needy and perhaps for only a little while... offer a plan for a diabetic who is truly taking the best care of themselves and just needs coverage for the most dangerous of complications....

 

Hospitals & insurance companies need to be solving this themselves. I have seen changes, but not enough. However, I think the new gov't leadership is hitting the harder, with more, and faster than anything they were ready for. They are also scared to go way of GM.

 

There are WAY more options than letting some dude in Washington tell me my 3 month premature child isnt' worthy.... or my 80 year old aerobic instructing grandma isnt' worthy.... or my cerebral palsy friend isn't worthy..... it is the history of such programs & we shouldn't think this oen will be any different!

[Heather in the Kootenays]

Canada's health care system has been in place for about half a century. During that time, our rights to homeschool have increased not decreased.

[Sara R]

I know many in their 80s in better health than others in thier 50s. That lady got her pacemaker & lived many more years (8-10....). There are people much younger who don't live that long. How can you say they are unworthy.... b/c they have lived healthy, productive lives.... b/c they aren't rich & some 50 year old deserves more.

 

I have NO RIGHT to say "your life isn't worth much".... you are too old... too mentally disabled.... too premature. Don't you see where this goes?

 

I am shocked that anyone would say "too bad, you aren't worth it".

 

I'm a big picture kind of person. Sometimes that makes me sound cold and unfeeling but I'm really not. I've had my own extensive run-in with the medical system. Through the grace of God and modern medicine (which cost about 3 years of the average American's household's income, 80%ish paid by health insurance), I am still here as my children's mother. They are very grateful. I hope that my cancer treatment blesses me with many productive years to come. Maybe I can even be productive enough to contribute that money back into "the system" someday.

 

The basic problem is that medical care costs money, and that the world death rate is holding steady at 100%. We want to think that our medical care can prevent death, but the best we can do is to hold it at bay for a few years (more years for some than others). I believe that a natural death by someone who has completed their life's work is not a tragedy. Leaving motherless children would be a tragedy.

 

In an ideal world, we would care for everyone. And I believe we should care for everyone with a great deal of love. Love is unlimited. Unfortunately, money is not. Health care is a high priority for where we as a people put our resources, but there are limits. Money comes from people's labor. Calculate how many workers need to work for what amount of time in order to pay for extraordinary medical care. For example, my recent ER visit to rule out appendicitis is costing our family one month's income! It's completely ridiculous! In addition (as I have said way too many times on this thread) our country is broke. The money just isn't there anymore.

 

These decisions are best made by individuals. If the government tried to do health care without rationing, we'd go bankrupt fast. If they do rationing, then you get into these kinds of discussions. It's best for individuals and their families to make these hard choices, so others don't make them for us.

[SFP]

Pg 16 explains how coverage will shift from private to federal as soon as the first change in terms occurs.... now I don't know if that will be 1 year or 10... .but your private company can't stay in business keeping your plan static (and you can't get good coverage if it doesn't adjust & change)... so how long do you think it will take for us all to be pushed into the fed system?

 

 

Page 16 defines the term "Grandfathered Health Insurance Coverage." Grandfathered coverage is mentioned again in Sec. 102, Sec. 202, and Sec. 401.

 

In fact, in Sec. 401, seven types of acceptable health insurance coverage are described, including grandfathered coverage AND QUALIFIED HEALTH BENEFITS PLAN COVERAGE- Coverage under a qualified health benefits plan (as defined in section 100© of the America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009). (You can google that Act and read it, if you're worried over what the word "qualifed" means. The bill's 1,000 pages plus, though.)

[SFP]

I heard it on the news.. .not YouTube. It was cold & very informative.

 

 

Then what you heard had without a doubt been edited down to render it misleading.

 

I linked to the transcript earlier today, but that post was removed. Google "ABC health forum obama" and you'll pull up a link to the complete transcript. Info you want is on the third page.

[BabyBre]

I am truly amazed at how many think that our goverment never gets it right.

 

I also think that our other socialist-like public service entities such as our police, fire fighters, and public libraries provide great services as well.

 

I'm sure some do. I've heard of a lot of inventive things coming from Phoenix's fire department. But as the wife of a fireman (who likes to talk :001_rolleyes:), the entire system is by nature inefficient. The beauracracy and regulations tie the hands of some very capable and benevolent public servants. And I won't even start with the hiring process itself. At least in our area, the EMS service would be run far better if the government municipalities didn't have a monopoly on them.

 

At least we're not worrying about our job. Socialism is going to be great for public employees!

Edited July 19, 2009 by BabyBre
Sarcasm. Just for fun.

[BabyBre]

I went to my Rep's office today. In fact there were at least a hundred of us crammed into her waiting room protesting this bill.

 

You rock, Soph! That's what we all need to do! Take your children with you and teach them to do it, too. How can our representatives represent us if we don't tell them how we feel?

 

I have never been the "type" to call or write anyone. I can't say I would have even known what to say. But thanks to the shameless speed with which this administration is usurping our precious rights, I am now officially an awake and useful American!

 

Here is the link to find contact information for your representatives again. We can't tell them too much, and they must be held accountable. We do that by speaking up and speaking loudly.

 

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/findyourreps.xpd

 

I'm no scholar of government take-overs but it seems to reason that there very well could be a point of no return, or at least a point of seemingly impossible return. We must not be sheep! They do not know best and we do not need the government to take care of us. We the People is what America is all about.

[BabyBre]

Well, whoever said it was wrong. It would be against the law. I can assure you there are no plans to vaccinate without parental consent.

 

Are you assuring us simply because it's against the law? Because surely there's never been a government entity that's acted contrary to the law (or the Constitution for that matter). That's the kind of trust we can no longer afford to have.

 

I do, however, agree wholeheartedly with your quote from Gertrude Stein. There really is nothing more exciting than diagramming sentences! ;)

[Perry]

Are you assuring us simply because it's against the law? Because surely there's never been a government entity that's acted contrary to the law (or the Constitution for that matter). That's the kind of trust we can no longer afford to have.

 

I do, however, agree wholeheartedly with your quote from Gertrude Stein. There really is nothing more exciting than diagramming sentences! ;)

 

I'm involved in influenza epidemiology, and I know this isn't something that's being considered.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Perry

[littlebug42]

I am very concerned about what this new health care legislation would mean for my family, particularly my daughter. She was born with a clubfoot and I have had to fight really hard to get good care for her. I now have to take her to Missouri (6 hours one way) to see her orthopedist and he is her third one. Through the wonders of the internet, I have had contact with people in the UK, Canada and Australia, and their fight for good care for their children's feet is worse with very few options for treatment. Many bring their children to the US for treatment. Boo-Boo is at a point where she now needs PT. Our local children's hospital, whose patient's are primarily Medicaid patients, looked at her foot and declared it "good enough" even though she limps pretty significantly. This is where I fear our healthcare will be going - "good enough" and I'm sorry, that is not acceptable for my children. We work hard and have sacrificed a lot to get her what she needs and now as members of an upper middle class tax bracket, I fear we will be paying more in taxes for our children's care to diminish. I see no way to foot the bill for this kind of plan without "dumbing down" the medical care.

[lea1]

Quote:

Orginally Posted By ThatGirlOverThere

"But something needs to be done about health care access to all people- to me it is a basic human right to have health care." (bolding mine)

 

My husband is a family physician. He studied his tail off through college and medical school, instead of partying or goofing off. He worked tons of hours through residency, getting very little sleep. He is fortunate because his parents covered most of his college & medical school expenses but most docs get out owing a hundred thousand dollars or more.

 

He has to retake his boards for family medicine every 7 years. He just finished taking them after getting up early every day for two years so he would have time to study, using his own personal time. He also spends a lot of his own personal time to read various medical journals, so he is up to date on the latest and greatest. He uses his own personal time to go to evening lectures to learn more or stay up to date on the latest and greatest.

 

We have to carry lots of very expensive insurance, just in case someone falls on our property or we are in an auto accident and we get sued for everything we have, because they find out he is a doctor and they think we are rich (definitely NOT the case). He makes good money but it is not over the top, by any means. When we met and I was still working, I made more money than he makes now (and I only went to 4 years of college). We are frugal people. We save our money and pay cash for everything. We have saved an "emergency" fund, in case he loses his job, so we will not have to rely on the government. While our friends send their kids to private schools and go on fancy vacations, we homeschool and stay home, for the most part. Our kids are not taking these lessons and those lessons. They do not go to Gymboree or Tikwando (?sp). We buy their clothes at resale shops or at WalMart, Target or Kohls type places. We hardly ever buy clothes for ourselves and, when we do, we are very careful about how much we spend. We do not buy DVD's and we do not (and will not) buy any sort of video games.

 

I believe that our "basic human right" is to BE FREE. That is what our constitution says, it is a God-given right. Our constitution does not say that you have a right to health care. On the contrary, what you call your "basic human right" to health care is my husband's life and career, that he worked for and EARNED. According to our constitution, he has a basic human right to be FREE and to take what he EARNED and get what he can for it in a FREE market, just like everyone else who has a job in the U.S. does.

 

How about if we take all of the teachers and welders and truck drivers, and grocery store owners/workers and carpenters, etc., and say that the government should take them over and control how much they can make and who they will service, because it is everyone's basic human right to have a house and a car and an education and food. And the government could control cost and put a cap on all of these people's pay also, so no one is charged too much for these essential things that are everyone's basic human rights.

 

Does this make sense? Is this the United States of America, home of the free, that we know, for which our ancestors fought and shed their blood? No! I think not!

 

There are those who want to shove this bill through, as they did the other bills they recently shoved through without even reading, to move this country as quickly as possible toward socialism while they have the opportunity....and they certainly know this financial crisis is an opportunity, since Rahm Emmanuael (?spelling) said this to reporters himself!.

 

If our elected leaders really had our best interests in mind, they would slow down and consider what measures they could take to improve the current system and fix it where it is broken, while allowing us our basic freedoms. We do not have to throw the baby out with the bath water in order to fix this. Tort reform would be a good first step and our President and the Dems are not even willing to consider it (Texas did this and it has made a huge impact). When a person with a pre-existing condition joins a large company, they are not denied health care coverage because they are part of a bigger group that helps to offset the cost. So change the model. Move health care coverage away from businesses and create a new model where insurance companies would have to group people in a new way where costs were offset and no one can be denied. Make better use of health savings accounts and then force providers to post their fees so consumers can comparison shop. There are many many steps they could take to move us in the right direction (I have heard many great ideas in the news lately, many of which have been posted on this forum).

 

Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid are bankrupt. They are in serious trouble. Our government (both Republicans and Dems) has failed us. Why would we now turn around and trust them with a 1.5 trillion dollar health care system?? It makes no sense.

[Mommyof4ks]

Well said Lea in OK!

 

My hubby is not a doctor, but we do know many both personally and professionally, and those that take fabulous care of our son deserve every penny they make. It may be considered outrageous to some, but they are available 24/7 and seem to live at the clinic and hospital. We even go to church with one of his docs, and she is always on the phone in the foyer bless her heart. It would be a shame to cap salaries of physicians, because many really do pour their heart and soul into their career and care deeply for their patients. We have two older docs who may retire if this happens, and honestly we cannot afford to lose them.

 

There are just so many things that make me nervous about this proposal.

[katemary63]

I haven't read even half of this thread but I do want to make a point and I apologize if someone has already made it. I do see that it was touched on in a post above but I will try to state it succinctly.

 

Health care IS NOT a basic human right, as some have asserted. That is quite impossible and I'll tell you why. A "basic human right" can never depend on another man's choice. Basic human rights are things like those guaranteed by our constitution: Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. These rights can be wrongfully taken away from you, but they can not be your's ONLY if another man chooses to make it possible. Healthcare only exists if people CHOOSE to be healthcare providers.

 

Let's take this to it's logical end. If no one chooses to become a healthcare provider, would it be okay to FORCE them to so that we would have access to our "basic rights?" Certainly not. A basic human right has to be something that can be exercised even if you were the only person on earth. Think about it, it's quite obvious. A basic human right can not depend on another man's choice.

 

Conclusion: Healthcare is not a right.

Edited July 19, 2009 by katemary63

[Kari C in SC]

See, that is the whole problem-WHY should they be required to do so? As cdrumm said, she doesn't choose to work at places that don't offer health insurance-she chooses to work harder to have the skills necessary to avoid this. Other people do choose to work at such places, and that is their freedom of choice. And it is the up to company's discretion as to whether or not to offer it. We have the freedom of choice to do all this, and we do not want it taken away!

 

The other poster said the way to have health insurance is to get a job. I was pointing out that not all jobs offer health insurance, so this is not a guaranteed way to get a job. My dh is a mechanic. He would have to pass over a ton of paying jobs if he only chose to work for one that offered health insurance. The average auto repair shop has 4 to 5 employees and do not offer insurance, vacation, sick days, etc. It is the nature of the business. I am sure this is the same for many other small businesses.

[Kari C in SC]

But.... there are options..... find work with another company or self insure or pay your own way (like my brother does b/c he hates insurance companies & risks much for it).... still having options other than the government.

 

Small businesses often don't insure b/c they can't afford it. They can't buy it much cheaper than you can on your own.... my parents struggle with this. Also, many of their employees are part time and don't need it.

 

My husband had crap insurance at last job.... as soon as he could, he was out of there. It was a huge issue. We had to perservere & we didn't go to the doctor.... then, we jumped!

 

I would gladly self-pay. As I have stated many times during this thread - if you have any pre-existing conditions, you will be denied. My dh has high cholesterol and sleep apnea. He was denied by everyone several agents tried. That was last year. He has since developed lupus. No insurance company will touch him. Most mechanic shops to not offer insurance. He has been a mechanic for 20 years. I don't see him retraining to be a dental assistant or accountant anytime soon. So, we are left without options.

[Lovedtodeath]

I don't want anyone to force me to pay for insurance that I don't want b/c it won't cover my preferred (not to mention more effective and pleasant) form of health care.

[Peek a Boo]

 

Health care IS NOT a basic human right, as some have asserted. That is quite impossible and I'll tell you why. A "basic human right" can never depend on another man's choice. Basic human rights are things like those guaranteed by our constitution: Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. These rights can be wrongfully taken away from you, but they can not be your's ONLY if another man chooses to make it possible. Healthcare only exists if people CHOOSE to be healthcare providers.

 

Let's take this to it's logical end. If no one chooses to become a healthcare provider, would it be okay to FORCE them to so that we would have access to our "basic rights?" Certainly not. A basic human right has to be something that can be exercised even if you were the only person on earth. Think about it, it's quite obvious. A basic human right can not depend on another man's choice.

 

Conclusion: Healthcare is not a right.

 

Right-O! :iagree:

[BabyBre]

So, I'm sure some of us remember the very heated debates banned from this forum during the elections. I'm curious, where are the Obama supporters in this thread? They were so vocal (on both sides, of course) that political discussions were banned several months ago, but this thread isn't revealing nearly that much support for this latest legislation that he supports and campaigned on.

 

Not trying to get us banned again, (Admin, I thank you for letting this discussion go on!) but I'm just wondering if this is all really what Obama's supporters wanted or expected. Thus far, how are all those supporters feeling about all this? Very civilly, of course. ;)

[mommyrooch]

So, I'm sure some of us remember the very heated debates banned from this forum during the elections. I'm curious, where are the Obama supporters in this thread? They were so vocal (on both sides, of course) that political discussions were banned several months ago, but this thread isn't revealing nearly that much support for this latest legislation that he supports and campaigned on.

 

Not trying to get us banned again, (Admin, I thank you for letting this discussion go on!) but I'm just wondering if this is all really what Obama's supporters wanted or expected. Thus far, how are all those supporters feeling about all this? Very civilly, of course. ;)

 

I am one of those Obama supporters. I can't even begin to tell you how much I am in favor of universal health care. :hurray: :thumbup:

 

My son is a Leukemia survivor and we are one of "those families" that fell through the cracks. Our current healthcare system almost destroyed us. I met many families along our cancer journey that were destroyed by it. :sad:

 

I have opted to stay out of this thread because it is obvious by the tone of it that most of those that are posting cannot and will not be swayed of their opinions against this plan. That is their right.

 

No matter what I say, the majority of those that oppose this plan will not change their minds. I have found that on issues like this people usually stand on one side of the fence or the other. Very rarely do you see crossovers. Why waste my time if it wouldn't have much impact?

 

Maybe I'll get brave and post our story sometime. Just so others can "see" the other side of the argument. I really truly believe though that it wouldn't do a darn bit of good.

 

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that there was at least one Obama supporter here. I'm just keeping my head down because I don't want to get hit in the crossfire. ;)

[asta]

It absolutely is within the law when the greater good of the country is in question. I had the Executive Order bookmarked but deleted it but I will try to hunt it down again. I'll edit this post with the link when I find it.

 

edit: here are a few links but not the detailed one I want to find:

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode42/usc_sec_42_00000264----000-.html

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dq/qa_influenza_amendment_to_eo_13295.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/04/28/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry4975598.shtml

 

Thank to Pres. Bush (W) if the acting Pres. signs the order, martial law can be declared due to a pandemic and forced vaccinations can be done. They can also force you to be quarantine and takeover your property.

 

I was shocked to find this out. Off to find the link for you. Personally I no longer trust my govt. If you dig around you will find that many of our so called freedoms either weren't really there or have been eroded over the years and we can be taken away and locked up without a trial as an enemy of the state.

 

No, it is not thanks to President Bush. Those laws have been around since at least Roosevelt. They get amended and "updated" with every President.

 

If you really want to scare yourself, read about the ones where the Federal government can literally take your farm, house soldiers, etc. in your home, etc.

 

Conversely, what if the gvt couldn't do this? If this nation had a war on its shores, with urban fighting, where would the soldiers be? Right now, almost all of our military installations are outside of major urban areas. What about something like the 1918 flu pandemic? If the gvt didn't have the right to quarantine, what do you think would happen? How about the great depression and the dust bowl? If that happened today, literally millions of people would be starving without the ability to tell people not to export their grain/crops, etc., but rather keep it in the local market.

 

Just because we don't become aware of certain legislative bits until a particular presidency doesn't mean that that President came up with the idea.

 

 

a

[Melinda in VT]

So, I'm sure some of us remember the very heated debates banned from this forum during the elections. I'm curious, where are the Obama supporters in this thread? They were so vocal (on both sides, of course) that political discussions were banned several months ago, but this thread isn't revealing nearly that much support for this latest legislation that he supports and campaigned on.

 

Not trying to get us banned again, (Admin, I thank you for letting this discussion go on!) but I'm just wondering if this is all really what Obama's supporters wanted or expected. Thus far, how are all those supporters feeling about all this? Very civilly, of course. ;)

 

I'm an Obama supporter who wants universal health care coverage. I haven't yet read the entire plan, but the parts I read yesterday were about what I expected. Not the complete overhaul of the system I would like to see, but I don't think that is politically feasible.

 

I've been reading the thread, but haven't posted much because it is clear that my worldview is significantly different from the majority of posters when it comes to this topic and I don't see that much good will come of my entering the fray.

[BalanceSeeker]

The other poster said the way to have health insurance is to get a job. I was pointing out that not all jobs offer health insurance, so this is not a guaranteed way to get a job. My dh is a mechanic. He would have to pass over a ton of paying jobs if he only chose to work for one that offered health insurance. The average auto repair shop has 4 to 5 employees and do not offer insurance, vacation, sick days, etc. It is the nature of the business. I am sure this is the same for many other small businesses.

 

Like Lea in OK said, we can reform the current system rather than moving to complete govt control. Grouping people in to offset costs, medical savings accounts for everyone, not allowing denials for pre-existings, capping premiums. These are the measures that must be tried first if we are to remain a free society.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Here is piece by Amy Goodman about Wendall Potter who everyone should hear no matter what side of the aisle you fall on:

 

"Wendell Potter is the health insurance industry’s worst nightmare. He’s a whistle-blower. Potter, the former chief spokesperson for insurance giant CIGNA, recently testified before Congress, “I saw how they confuse their customers and dump the sick—all so they can satisfy their Wall Street investors.”

 

Potter was deeply involved in CIGNA and industrywide strategies for maintaining their profitable grip on U.S. health care. He told me: “The thing they fear most is a single-payer plan. They fear even the public insurance option being proposed; they’ll pull out all the stops they can to defeat that to try to scare people into thinking that embracing a public health insurance option would lead down the slippery slope toward socialism ... putting a government bureaucrat between you and your doctor. They’ve used those talking points for years, and they’ve always worked.”

 

In 2007, CIGNA denied a California teenager, Nataline Sarkisyan, coverage for a liver transplant. Her family went to the media. The California Nurses Association joined in. Under mounting pressure, CIGNA finally granted coverage for the procedure. But it was too late. Two hours later, Nataline died.

 

While visiting family in Tennessee, Potter stopped at a “medical expedition” in Wise, Va. People drove hours for free care from temporary clinics set up in animal stalls at the local fairground. Potter told me that weeks later, flying on a CIGNA corporate jet with the CEO: “I realized that someone’s premiums were helping me to travel that way ... paying for my lunch on gold-trimmed china. I thought about those men and women I had seen in Wise County ... not having any idea [how] insurance executives lived.” He decided he couldn’t be an industry PR hack anymore.

 

Insurance executives and their Wall Street investors are addicted to massive profits and double-digit annual rate increases. To squeeze more profit, Potter says, if a person makes a major claim for coverage, the insurer will often scrutinize the person’s original application, looking for any error that would allow it to cancel the policy. Likewise, if a small company’s employees make too many claims, the insurer, Potter says, “very likely will jack up the rates so much that your employer has no alternative but to leave you and your co-workers without insurance.”

 

This week, as the House and Senate introduce their health care bills, Potter warns, “One thing to remember is that the health insurance industry has been anticipating this debate on health care for many years ... they’ve been positioning themselves to get very close to influential members of Congress in both parties.” Montana Sen. Max Baucus chairs the Senate Finance Committee, key for health care reform. Potter went on, “[T]he insurance industry, the pharmaceutical industry and others in health care have donated ... millions of dollars to his campaigns over the past few years. But aside from money, it’s relationships that count ... the insurance industry has hired scores and scores of lobbyists, many of whom have worked for members of Congress, and some who are former members of Congress.”

 

The insurance industry and other health care interests are lobbying hard against a government-sponsored, nonprofit, public health insurance option, and are spending, according to The Washington Post, up to $1.4 million per day to sway Congress and public opinion.

 

Don’t be fooled. Profit-driven insurance claim denials actually kill people, and Wendell Potter knows where the bodies are buried. His whistle-blowing may be just what’s needed to dump what’s sick in our health care system."

 

 

I strongly urge everyone to read and watch the interviews with Wendall Potter that can be found on Bill Moyer's Show on pbs.org. It is quite informative and shocking.

Edited July 19, 2009 by priscilla
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