Do you have a child like this?

[LadyAberlin]

My ds is 5.5 and he is really smart and has been highly interested in human anatomy and botany for many years. He wants to be an eye doctor. But he is extremely hyper. I've tried to take him to a homeschool music class and they dance to the music and act songs out etc. But that just winds him up and he can't calm down. Others will be twirling and he is like a tornado and bumps into people and pays no attention to it. He has a lack of empathy when people get hurt and and shows no remorse when he is disciplined. It doesn't matter the type of punishment. He wants to know how long it will last and that is all he cares about. Also if another adult besides me and sometimes with me tries to grab his arm to calm him down and talk to him about his behavior he generally is flailing about and doesn't even seem to register what is being said to him. Sometimes he will purposely make his face into the blank look and and do this blank stare so it seems like he isn't even listening to what you are saying. He really likes other children, but he doesn't understand personal space and is always wanting to hug or tickle them or sit right next to him and he doesn't get that they don't want him draped on them unless they flat out push him away and tell him to stop and even then sometimes that doesn't work. Also when he was an infant he wouldn't make eye contact and we discovered he was being overstimulated by me having either the TV on or the radio for background noise. Once I started keeping the house quiet he started making eye contact. Anyway I don't want to make him out to be a monster. I love him even with all these oddities. But I kind of figured he'd out grow this and it doesn't seem to be getting any better. My younger son who is almost 3 is very remorseful when in trouble and seems to understand people better than my oldest and so it is really starting to make my older son's issues stand out much more. Has anyone dealt with a child like this? How have you handled it and is there anything in particular that seemed to work really well when dealing with these issues?

Thanks:bigear:

[Chris in VA]

I'm sure your little guy is a bundle of enthusiasm, and that energy is such a good thing. It does sound, tho, that he is unaware of himself spatially, and may have some sensory issues. Have you mentioned these things to his pediatrician?

(Gently) He seems to share some of the tendencies of kids with Aspergers Syndrome--the lack of empathy, unawareness or misreading of social cues, intense interest in a certain subject. It is not something that will be outgrown, but the behavior can get better. I would definitely check it out.

[OrganicAnn]

My DD 5 said she wanted to be a doctor at about 2. We have all kinds of biology/anatomy books. She knows more about the human body now than I ever knew. Lately she's been expanding her horizons to saying she wants to be a cowgirl or a firefighter.

 

She was premature and I've heard that premmies often end up working in medical fields helping others. Don't know if it is true. She is ultra empathetic. Will cry if someone is hurt in a story (even if only their feelings are hurt).

 

She doesn't have the other personality traits you listed. She is very sensitive to noise (covers her ears) and has some fine motor skills issues.

 

Have you ask your pediatrician about those traits?

Edited July 16, 2009 by OrganicAnn

[LadyAberlin]

Yeah Aspergers keeps coming to mind to me to. The only thing is that he is very coordinated and does like social situations which seemed to contradict the Aspergers but then I know that he probably doesn't have to have every symptom on the list. I will probably mention it to my pediatrician when I take my youngest in for his 3 yr check up in Sept. My oldest won't see the Dr until dec when he is 6. So in the mean time is there anything that people with Aspies do for discipline, schooling and dealing with other children, that seems to help? Maybe I might could try some suggestions out till I'm able to talk to the dr. I feel like I'm at my wits end with trying to get through to him.

[LadyAberlin]

My DD 5 said she wanted to be a doctor at about 2. We have all kinds of biology/anatomy books. She knows more about the human body now than I ever knew. Lately she's been expanding her horizons to saying she wants to be a cowgirl or a firefighter.

 

 

 

My son wanted to deliver babies for a while and then he wanted to be a plastic surgeon and then back to delivering babies with a detour into wanting to build robots. During the robot phase he would sit and draw 100's of robots every day. I had to start hiding the computer paper. Then he decided he wants to be an eye doctor instead and insists that the only thing in school that he should learn about are eyes. I took him over to a friend's house (she teaches biology) and we dissected a cow eye. He really enjoyed that. My 3 yr old wants to be a builder. He loves Bob the builder.

[OrganicAnn]

You might want to xpost on the special needs board. I know they have several people with kids with Aspergers and also kids that don't quite fit into any diagnosis. I have a nephew that is on the autism spectrum but has many traits that really don't fit autism at all. So from time to time I'll look/post on there to get b-day present suggestions for him.

 

Anyway they might be able to suggest books/websites that could give you both ideas about discipline and about possible diagnosis.

[tex-mex]

Yeah Aspergers keeps coming to mind to me to. The only thing is that he is very coordinated and does like social situations which seemed to contradict the Aspergers but then I know that he probably doesn't have to have every symptom on the list. I will probably mention it to my pediatrician when I take my youngest in for his 3 yr check up in Sept. My oldest won't see the Dr until dec when he is 6. So in the mean time is there anything that people with Aspies do for discipline, schooling and dealing with other children, that seems to help? Maybe I might could try some suggestions out till I'm able to talk to the dr. I feel like I'm at my wits end with trying to get through to him.

 

 

Just in case go see your pediatrician for confirmation. There are other things that can mimic Aspergers (i.e. metabolic disorders) that have the same symptoms of hyperactive behavior, lack of empathy, etc. A full blood panel will rule out these and the doc can give you a basic quiz for you to fill out for Autism/Aspergers/PDD-NOS spectrum disorders. One good book to read is "When Your Child Has a Disability" by Dr. Mark Batshaw. He is one of my son's specialists with his rare genetic disorder. My son is also labeled Aspergers -- but his Urea Cycle Disorder is the main culprit causing the brain damage that has many underlying issues.

 

http://www.amazon.com/When-Your-Child-Has-Disability/dp/1557664722

Edited July 16, 2009 by tex-mex

[specialmama]

In the mean time, as you wait, why not look up social stories? Many kids, either with an "issue" or not, could benefit, they like/need to be told what is expected. You could write a simple social story for anything that you see your ds needs help with. For example, bumping into others, here is a simple story, with each line having it's own page and simple illustrations:

~ I love to dance and twirl!

~ It is fun to dance and twirl with other children!

~ We all spin around like a wind storm!

~ It is good to watch where others are twirling.

~ It is good to let others twirl and not bump into them!

~ If we bump into each other, somebody may get hurt!

~ I will try to twirl and spin without touching anybody. I will try to not bump into someone! That way we will all be safe!

 

Try doing a few simple stories like this, read them over and over with your ds, and see if they're helping. I think they might! ;)

[Pamela H in Texas]

You may or may not pursue a dx at some time but some kids are going to have these quirks and not be dx-able. Really, what it comes down to is that you'll have to address the issues.

 

You've gotten some good ideas in this thread already. A lot of this is just going to be training and just more proactively than average. As you've seen with your 3yo, many kids pick these things up as they go, but others don't.

 

So...

 

You do formal social skills training. Role playing, little books like Karyn mentioned, etc work well. You might try Raising a Thinking Child to help with thinking/role playing. Though he doesn't seem to "get it," make sure you still go through the motions ("even if it's an accident, we still apologize and make it up to the person" for example).

 

It will help if you'll give him "rules." Give him what TO do, not what not to do. Remind him before you go places. Our religion keeps children with parents during Christian meetings. I gave my son a handful of things he COULD do so he wouldn't be jumping around in the chair, kicking his feet wildly, etc. Before we went into a store, we "discuss" the rules (usually with a game).

 

Make sure his sensory needs are met appropriately other ways. This one is HARD for some parents. This often requires 2-4 hours of hard outdoor play plus another couple hours (split up as well as included in the mundane parts of life) of sensory activities. If you can start implementing it though, he'll generally calm down a little as well as not seek so much sensory input inappropriately. But it takes a little time. There are threads galore on this one so I won't make a mile long list in this thread, but definitely look those up.

 

Finally, we dropped the punishment. What good is it doing anyway? Generally, like you said, it has them looking at themselves rather than deterring an issue later or fixing the issue at hand. We found that dropping it actually helped which was surprising. But these kids, more than average, need better discipline. They need to consider the feelings of everyone involved, learn to pre-think options and evaluate them. This is another place with Raising a Thinking Child can be helpful. I definitely would stick to logical and (as reasonable) natural consequences because they work better but also because these kids seem to have a harder time transitioning to them later on. They are really easy to train to need the stronger response which isn't really how the real world works except in extreme situations (job loss, jail, etc). We want them to be used to the milder responses of life and actually feel them. It's okay that he doesn't at 5. But he'll NEED to at 19 or 31.

 

Anyway, look up the sensory stuff and really start being proactive with discipline, social skills and sensory stuff.

[gingersmom]

From personal experience, occupational therapy would make a world of difference to your son. I highly encourage you to have him evaluated. My son is a totally changed child.

[Orthodox6]

Not a pediatrician, unless you are required to see one first, in order to obtain a referral to a specialist. They [pediatricians] don't have the knowledge base necessary.

 

Just in case go see your pediatrician for confirmation. There are other things that can mimic Aspergers (i.e. metabolic disorders) that have the same symptoms of hyperactive behavior, lack of empathy, etc. A full blood panel will rule out these and the doc can give you a basic quiz for you to fill out for Autism/Aspergers/PDD-NOS spectrum disorders. One good book to read is "When Your Child Has a Disability" by Dr. Mark Batshaw. He is one of my son's specialists with his rare genetic disorder. My son is also labeled Aspergers -- but his Urea Cycle Disorder is the main culprit causing the brain damage that has many underlying issues.

 

http://www.amazon.com/When-Your-Child-Has-Disability/dp/1557664722

[Garga]

Sounds sort of like my son. I don't think mine has anything dx-able. He's just always been wild and touches too much.

 

He's almost 7 now and has calmed a bit. But not entirely. He doesn't touch and bump people as much...but still does.

 

I guess if it's in your gut that something's wrong, have him checked out. I don't feel it in my gut that something's wrong with my son. My son is just hyperactive. (When I look up ADHD, he fits pretty much all the Hyperactive symptoms but not the ADD part. So, I'm figuring he's just Hyperactive.)

 

Go with your mother instincts. And maybe look up Hyperactive symptoms.

[JFSinIL]

I want to point out the "blanks stare" you mentioned. That could well be an absence seizure (petit mal). They can be mere seconds in length. If you are close enough next time it happens , quickly move in your hand as close to his eye as possible, as if you were going to poke him in the eye (do not, of course, actually poke him!!!). If he DOES NOT BLINK or react to protect himself in anyway - it is a seizure. If so - he is not doing anything on purpose! And he is not hearing you, either.

 

Since so much of what you mention does sound on the autism spectrum (without being full autism) the seizure activity is a real probability.

 

Never let anyone tell you "Of course he stares, he has autism". Been there, done that. Grrr!

 

JFS in IL moderator of AutismNews (for Illinosi parents).

[DawnL]

It sounds like he may have a Sensory Processing Disorder. My 5.5 year old ds has this, and sounds a lot like your ds. I suggest borrowing The Out Of Sync Child, and seeing if you "find" your child in this book. My son is a "seeker", in that he is always crashing, bumping, running, jumping, yelling, and everything else. I, too, sometimes think he has some Asperger qualities, but he doesn't quite fit the profile.

 

It is for these reasons that dh and I chose to homeschool him, starting this fall, for Kindergarten. As social as our ds is, he just doesn't have all the social skills yet. He's trying, and he does well, but there are all the personal space issues, etc. At a playdate last month, at one point, he was repeatedly smacking another boy in the bum, and I had to pull him aside and speak with him. He wasn't trying to be mean, he just didn't get that it was inappropriate.

[talexand]

Your post brought back memories. My 10 year old was like this at the same age. One thing I had to do right away was let go of storytime and music class. I realized that they were my dream, not his interests. It would frustrate me so muh to see the other kids pay attention and behave well and mine get out of control. When I tried to talk to him in class its like I could look into his eyes and see that he wasn't focused enough to hear me.

 

I'm sure my son had some sensory issues, he is also very intelligent and this was part of the equation. He kind of needed to grow into his brain. He didn't like to play with toys. He liked to play deep imagination games, but not by himself. It had to be an adult or older kid. In the morning he would wake up unfocused and always act out at breakfast. So I started giving him mazes to do over breakfast. He loved mazes and it would cause him to focus and sit still. I kept a pile of them in the pantry. I really had to engage his brain to keep him out of trouble. It was exhausting and I had younger kids. I also tightened up on our discipline and stopped letting things escalate to the point that it made me mad.

 

The great thing is in his case he outgrew it. Learning to read helped a lot and he started reading when he was bored which kept him under control. Now at 10 years old it is unbelievable that he was ever that kid. He changed a lot around 6 and was out of it by 8. Now and then I can see signs that the out of focus kid is inside somewhere at times but he redirects himself and has a lot of interests that he can draw from to do so. He can also play with other kids now without going wild and loves to do so.

 

This might not be useful but I thought I'd put it out there because your story reminded me of my son. If my story reminds you of yours then maybe they are alike. If you suspect your child might be highly intelligent, you might want to read about gifted kids. They can come across at a young age like they have ADHD or other issues although they really do not.

[LadyAberlin]

It sounds like he may have a Sensory Processing

 

It is for these reasons that dh and I chose to homeschool him, starting this fall, for Kindergarten. As social as our ds is, he just doesn't have all the social skills yet. He's trying, and he does well, but there are all the personal space issues, etc. At a playdate last month, at one point, he was repeatedly smacking another boy in the bum, and I had to pull him aside and speak with him. He wasn't trying to be mean, he just didn't get that it was inappropriate.

 

So yours does that too :) Mine also tackles and wrestles and tickles. Now my dh wrestles with him a lot so the wrestling may be from that. The problem too is that it takes a lot for him to end up crying and hurt. I have people comment on how he'll hit his head on something or that my boys will knock each other around and it doesn't phase them, where as most children would be crying at that point. My 3 yr old has a high pain tolerance as well. He isn't the one usually causing it though. The frustrating thing is that he isn't doing any of those things to be mean. He is doing it to try to be friends but it doesn't have the effect that he wants.

Edited July 16, 2009 by LadyAberlin