Rhondabee Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 (edited) I asked over on the high school board, but haven't gotten any response, so thought I'd ask over here. Has anybody used (or considered using) all of the Ancient Greenleaf History Guides with a high schooler? (Old Testament, Egypt, Greece, and Rome) Or, even just all in one year with a middle schooler? On their website, it mentions that Rob uses these to teach 9th grade history. It *doesn't* say how much he tweaks it. I honestly don't even know *why* I went to their website, but I listened to their download about "Twaddle-Free History", which is very similar to WTM. And, I was struck at how deeply they were able to intertwine history and the Bible. (For example, how an understanding of the Greeks' view of their city-state system is the context of and so deepens the meaning of Paul's statement that our citizenship is in heaven. Having almost finished studying Greece to prepare for next year, I *knew* intellectually that a Greek's allegience was first to his own city. But - I wouldn't have made that jump to applying that to Paul in a million years. Yet, *That's* the sort of thing that I'm yearning for in our next go-round of history - especially for my 9th grader.) I'm curious how the guides all fit together. I found *one* snippet in a catalogue that hinted that you moved back and forth between the Old Testament and Egypt guides in a more chronological fashion. But, I am having a real hard time finding *any* real user reviews. Do you hard-core WTM'ers think this is something that will *really* be worth my time to investigate? I'm not even sure if the Guides would point out the connection between a Greek's allegience to his city and Paul's statement - or if that was just something that got included in their talk, you know? Well, thanks for listening! If you have any comments (good, bad, ugly, whatever!), please, please post!! Thanks for all your help!! Edited July 11, 2009 by Rhondabee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 I used the Greenleaf Guides with my oldest children, many years ago. I pulled them out to use with dd this upcoming school year. Then I grew curious about the Memoria versions of these same out-of-print books (not the Egypt, which is a guide from Greenleaf only). After looking at the Memoria website, and reading Internet reviews, I went ahead and purchased the teaching sets for Greece and Rome. Personal opinion, of course, but Memoria's versions are so much better than Greenleaf's ! I had planned on dd, who enters 5th grade, completing both Greece and Rome during the same year. With Greenleaf that would have been reasonable. When the Memoria books arrived, I immediately recognized that it will take the complete school year to finish just one set. There is so much more "meat" to these courses. Even my 20-year old "history nut" in college was impressed. The illustrations in Memoria's are, well, eye-catching. (a bit luridly-coloured for my taste ! :) ) If you have not already bought the Greenleaf books, may I encourage you to consider Memoria instead? They can be suitable for high school work, I feel. Greenleaf better suits upper elementary grades. The Greenleaf Egypt guide, I thought a little "thin." We supplemented heavily. The Old Testament guide was unusable by us, owing to slant. So I can't address its suitability for your needs. (I had an Orthodox priest examine it, and he couldn't recommend it to me.) Also, I am not at all a "hardcore WTMer" ! Just happened to notice your post about books with which I am familiar. I hope this helps, even a little, with your decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 The OT guide has enough lessons to take a year. Haven't seen the other guides, but is it possible the other responder is confusing them with the Famous Men books? I googled the Greenlead Guide to Egypt and saw something about it having 10 lessons. You might be able to cover their Egypt, Greece, and Rome guides in a year and run the OT guide parallel, not even trying to line them up. Then do the NT guide parallel to your Middle Ages study the next year. I don't know if the Greenleaf OT guide really has the depth you'd want/expect for a 9th grader, as I don't have one. I got it to use with my dd this fall, and I'm hoping to pull into it Victor Journey Through the Bible, some mapping, OT feasts, etc. I just haven't pulled it all together. :( BTW, did you know BJU has some high school level Bible courses that survey the NT and OT? They might work just as easily for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Just a comment for those who aren't familiar with Greenleaf Press: The Shearers wrote the Guides to Famous Men of… to be used with Famous Men of… by Poland & Haaren. The Shearers put together study packages which include the Famous Men book, the Guide for that book, and other resources such as timelines and trade books. The study package for Ancient Greece includes, Famous Men of Greece, Greenleaf Guide to Greece, Timeline for Greece, The Greeks, The Story of the Iliad, The Children's Homer, and Plato: The Trial and Death of Socrates. Other resources are available, as well. Ancient Egypt doesn't have a Famous Men of… book, only the Greenleaf Press Guide. It does only have 10 lessons, but it is assumed that it won't be the only guide used for a whole year. The study package includes The Greenleaf Guide to Ancient Egypt, The Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt, Mummies Made in Egypt, Tut's Mummy Lost and Found, Pyramid, Penguin Atlas of Egypt, and DK Desert. When I used them, the Shearers had not yet written the Greenleaf Guide to Old Testament History. I used Ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome, and Middle Ages in a year. It was in a small one-room, multi-grade school, and I'm sure we didn't do things as in depth as I might have if we'd been doing it at home. However, it was a good introduction for the elementary students (there were only a couple of high school age students, and I added BJUP history for them). One of my 5th graders really loved the Ancient Egypt study and said she wanted to be an archeologist when she grew up. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Both Greenleaf and Memoria use the public-domain "Famous Men" books by Haaren and Poland. "H & P" wrote books for Greece, Rome, Middle Ages, and Modern (which, in 1904, or thereabouts when it was, is not quite as "modern" 100 years later !). They did not write a book for Egypt, nor for Bible study. Haven't seen the other guides, but is it possible the other responder is confusing them with the Famous Men books? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhondabee Posted July 11, 2009 Author Share Posted July 11, 2009 (edited) I used Ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome, and Middle Ages in a year. It was in a small one-room, multi-grade school, and I'm sure we didn't do things as in depth as I might have if we'd been doing it at home. However, it was a good introduction for the elementary students (there were only a couple of high school age students, and I added BJUP history for them). One of my 5th graders really loved the Ancient Egypt study and said she wanted to be an archeologist when she grew up. :-) (Please note: I'm *very* tired, and my 4yoDD really *needs* a mute button *somewhere*!!!!, so I may be mis-remembering my intentions - LOL!) Actually, my 4yoDD is really a part of this equation. What I am finding is that this summer I have not had the same "quiet" time I have always had to pre-read lit and history, and I am questioning whether or not I can really do high-school-level-worthy work with my 9th grader with such little preparation. So, I was looking at trying Smarr Ancients for Literature. But, I figure that's a one-credit course, meaning I need to find *something* worthy of an additional credit for history. (My original plan being to follow WTM, and be reading *either* history *or* lit for 2 hours daily, and give 2 credits.) I don't think that just SWB's History of the Ancient World will be enough for a full credit of history. But, if I could combine that *with* something else (preferably something that is at least somewhat pre-planned), then I would have a full history credit. Sounds like maybe that is similar to what you did? So...do you happen to remember any sudden, deep insights from your study that came from the guides? (I know it was a while ago.) I have a lot of the materials they recommend here already for our WTM-based study for my 6th grader. So, I guess in the end it's not really a matter of what to use, or when to use it, but being able to use something that will guide my thoughts about the information we're learning so I'll be able to discuss it intelligently & with wisdom in spite of myself?!?!? BTW - Thanks to all who posted! Edited July 11, 2009 by Rhondabee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Orthodox, the Greenleaf Guides aren't the same as the Famous Men books. The Greenleaf OT Guide has them read through the OT in 180 lessons, which is why I suggested the OP could run it parallel to the other, more historical guides. I think if the dc keeps a timeline and does enough extra readings, she'll make the connections. My concern, as it seems Ellie's is, is to the content. The OT guide is fine, but it doesn't go nearly as in-depth or require as much (mapping, other extras) as what a 9th grader could do. There are basically no extras in fact, you'd have to do it all yourself. That's why I mentioned doing an OT survey aimed at that age-group, so it would be more fully fleshed out. I always thought mapping was the coolest thing in Bible study, so that's something I look for. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 We keep "missing" each other ! :) I know which is what in the series. The OP asked about all of the Greenleaf guides, from OT on up through history. Greenleaf guides for OT and for Egypt are their own productions. The Greenleaf guides for Greece, Rome, and Medieval ARE for their editions of the "Famous Men" books. Only as this thread (and the parallel thread in the high school section) progressed, did the OP's greater interest in Bible and Biblical history emerge as the stronger direction. Orthodox, the Greenleaf Guides aren't the same as the Famous Men books. The Greenleaf OT Guide has them read through the OT in 180 lessons, which is why I suggested the OP could run it parallel to the other, more historical guides. I think if the dc keeps a timeline and does enough extra readings, she'll make the connections. My concern, as it seems Ellie's is, is to the content. The OT guide is fine, but it doesn't go nearly as in-depth or require as much (mapping, other extras) as what a 9th grader could do. There are basically no extras in fact, you'd have to do it all yourself. That's why I mentioned doing an OT survey aimed at that age-group, so it would be more fully fleshed out. I always thought mapping was the coolest thing in Bible study, so that's something I look for. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in MN Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 (there were only a couple of high school age students, and I added BJUP history for them). I do agree the high schooler would need some extra text. I tried Famous Men books with my high schooler & she found them too childish. I had far too little background at the time to teach much using the Greenleaf guides. You might read some of the Famous Men chapters online before you decide. By the way, I did use the Old Testament guide with my high schooler for Bible. It was a wonderful Bible year, as it let the focus be on reading the Bible line-by-line and only added a few questions to keep us awake, and added a select few connections chronologically & such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 So you're saying the Greenleaf guides to Greece, etc. are just guides to using the Famous Men books?? Yuck. I just assumed they were a thorough overview of the subjects, like the OT guide and what I thought I was remembering of the Egypt guide. My dd enjoyed reading the Famous Men books, but I wouldn't exactly call them a survey of the time period, especially for a high schooler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 They are, essentially, discussion questions to accompany each chapter. Answers are not provided. There is a very skimpy geography project at the beginning of the guide for ancient Greece. You're right that the "Famous Men" books don't work for history survey courses. (Perhaps I could liken them to children's versions of Plutarch's Lives.) Notable individuals from the historical era are discussed, chronologically, as to their characters and their actions, but the books do not constitute a "narrative history." When I suggested using the Memoria Press offerings as an alternative to Greenleaf, that was because the study questions readily could require high school-level answers from the student. Same for the volume of "memory work". So you're saying the Greenleaf guides to Greece, etc. are just guides to using the Famous Men books?? Yuck. I just assumed they were a thorough overview of the subjects, like the OT guide and what I thought I was remembering of the Egypt guide. My dd enjoyed reading the Famous Men books, but I wouldn't exactly call them a survey of the time period, especially for a high schooler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Rhondabee -- Have you thought about the TRISMS program for your high schooler ? http://www.trisms.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted July 11, 2009 Share Posted July 11, 2009 Thanks for clarifying that! One day I'll have to look at the MP catalog and see when they use those guides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhondabee Posted July 11, 2009 Author Share Posted July 11, 2009 You're right that the "Famous Men" books don't work for history survey courses. (Perhaps I could liken them to children's versions of Plutarch's Lives.) Notable individuals from the historical era are discussed, chronologically, as to their characters and their actions, but the books do not constitute a "narrative history." When I suggested using the Memoria Press offerings as an alternative to Greenleaf, that was because the study questions readily could require high school-level answers from the student. Same for the volume of "memory work". Ok - I, too, was thinking the guides included much more than the "Famous Men" books. Oh, well.... I have also been toying with the idea of using HOAW as per the new WTM (3 chapters a week - probably about 15-20 minutes per chapter), and supplementing with Bible history, Herodotus, Thucidydes, a few selections from the WTM Logic List, and Plutarch Lives to get a full history credit while doing Smarr for a lit credit. Does that sound crazy? Better? I responded on the other board, but the thing I don't like about Trisms is the literature. I haven't really looked too much at their history (though the method sounds interesting). It was the literature that drew me to WTM, and I really want to keep that. Thanks for all your help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhondabee Posted July 11, 2009 Author Share Posted July 11, 2009 Thanks, Julie! nft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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