DD won't re-write her writing or take criticism, what to do?

[siloam]

We are using Classical Writing, and the method is working well. I don’t want to change programs. My dd would be this way with any program. She falls in love with what she has written and doesn’t want to change it.

 

I just don’t know how to shift her thinking from her writing being her art and untouchable to it being a form of communication where she has to reach her reader. Anyone have any ideas?

 

Heather

[8filltheheart]

Is this for the 11 yo?

 

You could print up some grading rubrics and sit with her while you grade her writing for each point. Let her see that this is how teacher's grade. You could also find or write paragraphs for her to grade via the rubrics.....sometimes seeing how it is done to something with no personal investment helps to learn the process.

 

My preference is 2 different grading scales.......one for content and one for mechanics/grammar.

[Orthodox6]

You could have written the same post for a graduate student ! People so often consider criticism (both positive and negative) of their writing to be a personal attack on themselves. They can't stand aside from the writing and evaluate it as a separate entity. Adults in the workplace react just the same. There just is "something" about writing which is so personal, we rush to protect our "creation" from harm.

 

I wrote all that to reassure you that your dd is quite normal. I would be more surprised if she had the maturity (and that kind is very hard to develop !) to welcome -- even to solicit -- criticism of her writing !

 

Best I can suggest is to build on her existing strengths of writing. Praise them, then move toward discussion of what she can do to make her successful passages entice and enthrall a reader still more successfully -- by means of revising and correcting specific elements of the whole composition (essay, report, whatever it is). I don't know anything about the program you are using, but does the teacher guide include suggestions for how to teach "the art of revision" ?

[Another Lynn]

We're not there yet...we're still in the stage of getting something on paper, LOL. So, I don't have personal experience... But, what if you gave her assignments to edit a piece of writing that wasn't hers. Then once she develops editing skills (and maybe sees the fun and the benefit of it?) maybe she'll enjoy applying them to her own work more?

 

If I'm way off base, feel free to ignore!

[Quad Shot Academy]

Here are some ideas, hopefully at least one will be applicable to your daughter:

 

* I tell them that this is how we write for school: brainstorming (4th grade), rough draft, final draft . . . no exceptions (I had to institute the no exceptions because my son was keeping his writing below his level, because if he didn't make any mistakes he would not have to recopy it.)

 

* If they are in love with their work and not wanting to change it, I tell them that is fine with me, they can save their writing, but of course they will have to write another paper for their school work. :D

 

* I don't edit it over their shoulder, they give me the paper and I edit it later. Usually they don't see my changes until the next day. I have seen parents hovering over their kids while they write and *I* would be very offended if I was the child.

[siloam]

Is this for the 11 yo?

 

You could print up some grading rubrics and sit with her while you grade her writing for each point. Let her see that this is how teacher's grade. You could also find or write paragraphs for her to grade via the rubrics.....sometimes seeing how it is done to something with no personal investment helps to learn the process.

 

My preference is 2 different grading scales.......one for content and one for mechanics/grammar.

 

Yes the 11yo, LOL! Details, details... :D

 

I do have rubics in the TOG Writing Aids, so I can give that a try.

 

The mechanics/grammar she generally accepts with no argument. It is clarity and content issues, with story type writing that she is very stubborn on. Guess it could be worse, hua?

 

Heather

 

[siloam]

You could have written the same post for a graduate student ! People so often consider criticism (both positive and negative) of their writing to be a personal attack on themselves. They can't stand aside from the writing and evaluate it as a separate entity. Adults in the workplace react just the same. There just is "something" about writing which is so personal, we rush to protect our "creation" from harm.

 

I wrote all that to reassure you that your dd is quite normal. I would be more surprised if she had the maturity (and that kind is very hard to develop !) to welcome -- even to solicit -- criticism of her writing !

 

Best I can suggest is to build on her existing strengths of writing. Praise them, then move toward discussion of what she can do to make her successful passages entice and enthrall a reader still more successfully -- by means of revising and correcting specific elements of the whole composition (essay, report, whatever it is). I don't know anything about the program you are using, but does the teacher guide include suggestions for how to teach "the art of revision" ?

 

It gives specific points on to look for, but more along the lines of grammar. When it comes to content it is more vague, and that is where we have our disagreements. Though to be honest she does put a lot into her first draft, writing and correcting as she goes. Maybe I am making it too big an issue.

[siloam]

Here are some ideas, hopefully at least one will be applicable to your daughter:

 

* I tell them that this is how we write for school: brainstorming (4th grade), rough draft, final draft . . . no exceptions (I had to institute the no exceptions because my son was keeping his writing below his level, because if he didn't make any mistakes he would not have to recopy it.)

 

* If they are in love with their work and not wanting to change it, I tell them that is fine with me, they can save their writing, but of course they will have to write another paper for their school work. :D

 

* I don't edit it over their shoulder, they give me the paper and I edit it later. Usually they don't see my changes until the next day. I have seen parents hovering over their kids while they write and *I* would be very offended if I was the child.

 

I might have to try that second one. My luck she would just write a new story, but it is worth a shot.

 

I don't edit over he shoulder as it drives me nuts just to have someone read over my shoulder. Likewise she refuses to be in the room while I read over it, which I find amusing. :D We all have out things right? Most of the time her content is good and she will correct grammar issues, but if I ask her to go in and be more descriptive, or clarify something she starts to fight back.

 

The more I think about it at this point it really isn't a huge problem. The couple of times it has been I take it to Dad, and he is the final authority on if it needs to be changed or not (to fit the scope of the assignment) and when he says it needs to be changed she usually caves. She is still pretty young. I would just love to help her see it differently to save her more pain down the road, but maybe she needs to learn it on her own.:001_huh:

 

Heather

[PeterPan]

Couple thoughts to echo what the others said. If you do daily editing exercises (on something else, a workbook like Take 5 Minutes or Editor in Chief or the Caught 'Ya books or whatever you like), then they get more comfortable with the red pen. Then after a semester of that, you can hand her the red pen and tell her to start applying it to her own work. When I edited papers with my WT2 co-op class, we did it together, using the skills we built through editing warm-ups, and it worked out great.

 

Also, you want to be very specific about exactly what you're looking for in the writing. You can put the onus back on them. For instance, if the focus on the writing project is description, you state ahead of time EXACTLY what you are expecting. (2 descriptive sentences with a minimum of...) When editing, you ask them to show you how they fulfilled the requirement. Flip it and ask them where their weakest xyz is (description, sentence opener, whatever), and then start to work through it. In WT2 we spent a semester on sentence openings, so I would ask them to pick their weakest sentence, then let them work through the process, helping them with questions, so they could determine how to improve their own work. You move from the teacher doing it to the teacher helping the student do it.

 

If the student is having trouble with content and clarity, it could actually go back to more fundamental issues like needing an outline, not summarizing well, etc. I would go back to the basics on that and not assume anything. Did she outline it? Did she give an oral narration before she began writing? Does she need to do more dictation to practice holding her thoughts in her head so she doesn't lose them?

 

What the others are calling a rubric is what I'm saying when I say to be very specific with your expectations. If you look at the IEW materials like their free online lesson plans, they have checklists for each and every writing assignment. CW does in a way, but it's possible to make them more specific. You may need to make your own checklists that include basic things (must include basics of plot as we outlined it, must include...). Those checklists can grow, with you adding to them each week as you cover something new in CW. That way you take nothing for granted. But know exactly what you're looking for and overlook the rest.

 

As the others said, it is a character issue, taking criticism. I'm sort of stoic and mean, so I don't really care if she likes it or not, haha. But if you're having trouble getting there, don't be afraid to bring in outside analysis for a while, maybe even a year. I'll tell you, it seemed to be just MAGICAL how smart the moms of my students were in the dc's eyes after a while. Mom was suddenly the helper, saving them from public embarassment, rather than the meanie. So don't be afraid to change your role to helper and let someone else, not so emotionally close, take the jabs. It would be nice if they were so mature they took from us everything they should/could, but that's not always the case. Sometimes outsourcing is the answer. :)

[Rhonda in TX]

It gives specific points on to look for, but more along the lines of grammar. When it comes to content it is more vague, and that is where we have our disagreements. Though to be honest she does put a lot into her first draft, writing and correcting as she goes. Maybe I am making it too big an issue.

 

Andrew Pudewa is very big on only grading grammatically (and by the style checklist) at first. Hands off content. He says you want as few red marks on the paper as possible, so as not to discourage them. It drives me crazy at times, but it is also very freeing. You do eventually grade content, but not until they get the basics down. Maybe back off content for awhile.

[siloam]

If the student is having trouble with content and clarity, it could actually go back to more fundamental issues like needing an outline, not summarizing well, etc. I would go back to the basics on that and not assume anything. Did she outline it? Did she give an oral narration before she began writing? Does she need to do more dictation to practice holding her thoughts in her head so she doesn't lose them?

 

She does do an outline, and she also then takes her outline and makes her notes, that part of the process is going well. The clarity issues are in following the line of thought through the paragraph. She sees it very clearly because she knows what she is thinking and is sure the problem in following it is mine not hers. :rolleyes: Yes this is when I launch into a lecture about reaching your audience, which she just loves.

 

The last time we had an issue it was with this sentence:

Lucky for the fishies, a strong wind caused a strong current to take them from the hollow at that time.

 

I wanted her to replace one of the instances of strong with a synonym and I thought it got lost at what time this happened because it is at the beginning of the sentence before this and both are long sentences. It took about a 30 mins of going back and forth explaining why I though it needed work, and her Dad agreeing with me to get her to change it. In the end she used forceful for one second strong and rewrote the sentence before so that the time was at the end, and more easily linked to the reference in this sentence. Oh and I just let her get away with fishies as a style thing. Gotta pick your battles right? ;)

 

Being the tough one isn't the problem, it is the time it takes to convince her of that, which takes away from time I should be spending with the rest. I would like to just work on an general change of attitude, if I can. Maybe if I went back to a piece from the beginning of Aesop she would respond better because she would see her writing as less developed? I can do more detailed instructions, it is just when she doesn't like my instructions that WWIII begins. :D I could just shorten it by just making her do it, but I really want her to get why, to learn and not just go through the motions.

 

I don't want much do I? :smilielol5:

 

Heather

 

p.s. Handing it over to Dad might be a good option though. He is a better writer than I am and she knows it.

 

[8filltheheart]

I start off teaching my kids that EVERY piece of writing has room for improvement. :) They would know from the get-go that I would not accept two "strongs" in a sentence.

 

One suggestion might be to have her close her eyes and envision the different scenerios as you change the wording of her sentences.

 

For example, taking the sentence Lucky for the fishies, a strong wind caused a strong current to take them from the hollow at that time.

 

and changing it several different ways (btw, I am completely clueless as to what this is about!!)

 

Lucky for the fish, a strong wind created a current forcing them out of the hollow.

Just then, a gust of wind churned the water and flushed the fishies out of their safe hollow.

etc

 

We spend lots of time doing that sort of activity......I try very hard not to make revising and improving a time of criticism. I try to focus on the teaching opportunities and encourage them to engage in the process. In a scenerio like the one above, simply offering a few suggestions through different images usually gets them to think of ways to re-write on their own.

[debbielong]

...I farmed it out!

 

My son, who is otherwise a highly cooperative student, and I just could not get past his feelings of being personally attacked when we discussed his writing.

 

So, he took the Writer's Workshop class through The Potter's School (TPS) last year and it, honestly, changed his life. He went from hating writing to now saying he wants to write for a living. His writing improved beyond imagination. He not only wrote more clearly, he wrote MORE: he produced mass volumes of written words in nine short months. My very favorite change is he now sees a first draft as exactly that: a first draft.

 

He also learned how to evaluate the writing of others in a positive way. And, he saw that the way I approached his writing was in line with the WW philosophy.

 

There are downsides. First, it is pricey. The junior high classes are $420 per year, plus a $60ish initial administrative fee. I found getting started to be extremely time consuming and parent intensive. We almost quit after the second week. I wondered why I was spending so much money to have to spend so much time! I'm glad we stuck it out.

 

We loved TPS so much, our oldest will be taking three classes this year. We, in effect, gave up our family waterpark vacations this year, in order for our son to continue at TPS. Most normal people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice fun for the whole family for one child to take classes:)! But, this is how high a priority we decided to make these classes.

 

I know using online schools isn't for everyone; regardless, I hope it is comforting and useful to someone here to learn that TPS is out there!

[Amy in CO]

I have tried to solve it like momof7. I will offer my dd several sentences, switching words around, using synonyms, etc, and try to "show" her how just tweaking it a bit can make a sentence sound alot better or worse.

 

It doesn't work every time, I guess it depends on how stubborn she is being, but it does help alot. And at this point, if she chooses her original sentence, as long as she isn't being spiteful but truly prefers it, I let her use it.

 

Usually 9 times out of 10, she will choose a different sentence, as long as I am not being too critical of her work. :D Must remember those tender feelings.

[Moni]

I'd tell her we are going to leave the Writing as it is.

But "....just for an assignment..." you are going to have her edit it on a different paper. But she can keep her original as it is. ;)

 

Frankly, I'd just make a few photocopies of the original onto colored paper, so it even "looks" different. Let her keep the original.

The "assignment(s)" would be done on the photocopies or separate paper.

 

Otherwise, it's just an assignment. It's not optional ;)

Does she do some writing she's allowed to keep as original ? each week?

If she wants to keep something original, then she can. Once a week, for example.

The other "writing" is going to be for assignment/editing.

 

If she wants to keep MOnday's writing. She can.

If she writes again on Tuesday and wants to "keep" that one, then she has to edit Monday's. That way she gets some flexibility, choice, if you wish her to have some.

Or maybe she writes Mon/Tue, but come Weds, she's going to have to edit one of those. If she won't pick one, mom will. ;)

 

Or some variation on this method.

 

:seeya:

[PeterPan]

Siloam, you have several different issues there. My dd does the same thing, using adjectives instead of adverbs. You can either try to correct it formally, explaining the error with diagramming or lines to show the relationships (what modifies what), or you can simply restate it for her. Restating and pulling it out of them is what I did most often in my class and how I work with my dd. It seems to help curb the sense of being torn apart, because you're still focusing on what they meant and what they wanted to say, just getting them to say it again, in a new way. :) So with this sentence, I might say, "Oh, you mean 'Luckily for the fishes, the wind..."

 

Instead of having a power dynamic over what words will get changed, I would simply ask her to find 3 words in her draft she would like to change out using the thesaurus. At that point it doesn't really matter whether it was strong or luckily or whatever, because she's learning the PROCESS.

 

It doesn't matter if she turns out a perfect draft or not, as in removing every error. The point is to let her draft give her practice in the steps and teniques of editing. That's why you can focus on the skills being worked on in the assignment, quantify a few others (past skills), and leave the rest. Those are the things you put onto an assignment checklist. You put her back in control and eliminate fighting by giving her some choices. Instead of you saying what words to sub out with synonyms, she gets to pick. Instead of you picking which sentence to improve (with sentence openers, conjunctions, etc.), she gets to pick. Give her some power. Ask her what her favorite sentence was (and why), and ask her what her weakest sentence was.

 

Back to those checklists. On mine, it not only says to choose and sub out 3 words using the thesaurus, but it has blanks where they have to fill in the old words and new choices! That's quantifying it and eliminating the battle.

 

It's tough, I know. Keep working on it, and don't be afraid to sub it out! :)

[Amy Jo]

How long does she have between the first draft and having to revise? In my writing I let the paper sit for several days if possible. That way what I "thought" I said is faded, and I can be more objective.

 

I would let her Dad correct it if she responds better to him. When I was homeschooled my Dad corrected my writing for the same reason, even though my Mom did everything else.

[Hoggirl]

Take an assignment (not a story-writing one, but more of a report-writing/essay one) and do it yourself. Let your daughter edit YOU. Show here how YOU can graciously accept her suggestions. Honestly, I did this one time, and it was amazing how well my ds responded to it. He wasn't ugly at all, but put a lot of thought into the comments he made. I didn't purposely make mistakes at all, and he was still able to find ways to improve on what I had written. This definitely goes to the point that the other poster made about how every piece of writing can be improved upon.

 

Also, I have my ds do one edit first before I do any correcting. He knows that the closer he edits the fewer comments he will receive from me.

 

Lastly, when I do read and make comments on his work I use two colors of pen - green for things I like, red for things that I feel like need improvement. Ds can visually see that there ARE things that I like about his writing. Previously, both the positive and negative comments were in red, so it looked like his whole paper was "wrong" even though at least a third of the comments I had made were positive.

 

Just some ideas for things that have helped around here.

[HappyGrace]

Can you believe this is one of my favorite threads ever?! Thank you all for the very specific suggestions. Even though my dd is not struggling in the exact same way with writing, all these suggestions will help me become a MUCH better writing teacher!!!

 

This type of thread points to exactly where I'm hoping to grow as a hs teacher. After a few yrs of hs'ing, I feel like I know curriculum, I know my dc, I've read many books on the generalities of teaching, but I need things like this thread-that show me specifics about how to teach a subject effectively from people who have btdt. This was great-thank you!

[TraceyS/FL]

Well, i won't be of much help probably....

 

But, my DD was writing a short story for a contest at our Library. She was very resistant to many changes (and was up against a word count), even when I, then grandpa suggested the same thing. We had to back off - make our suggestions and let her stew.

 

She went to the talk the library hosted, and the author speaking had a variety of rubrics that are used in a professional setting. Those really got to her, that they DO use a whole checklist when judging this type of writing (and others, but hey, she's 13, you pick your battles - the light bulb comes on eventually!).

 

Now on the other hand, my middle child. UGH. Last week we were supposed to be editing her first ever "story". Ye gads. OK child, if you think it's PERFECT then it is..... LOL, i'll be reviewing tips here for her.

 

Good luck!

[siloam]

I start off teaching my kids that EVERY piece of writing has room for improvement. :) They would know from the get-go that I would not accept two "strongs" in a sentence.

 

One suggestion might be to have her close her eyes and envision the different scenerios as you change the wording of her sentences.

 

For example, taking the sentence Lucky for the fishies, a strong wind caused a strong current to take them from the hollow at that time.

 

and changing it several different ways (btw, I am completely clueless as to what this is about!!)

 

Lucky for the fish, a strong wind created a current forcing them out of the hollow.

Just then, a gust of wind churned the water and flushed the fishies out of their safe hollow.

etc

 

We spend lots of time doing that sort of activity......I try very hard not to make revising and improving a time of criticism. I try to focus on the teaching opportunities and encourage them to engage in the process. In a scenerio like the one above, simply offering a few suggestions through different images usually gets them to think of ways to re-write on their own.

 

Oh I like that. CW has a lot of synonym work and such built into it, but I never thought of having her envision it. She has a very active imagination, so this might really help her.

 

This is her re-write of an old Brother Grimm story called The Sparrow and His Four Children. She changed the setting to a stream and the birds to fish. :D

 

Heather

 

[MerryAtHope]

Rather than have her revise every piece, collect several weeks worth, and then let her choose one to revise. As you go along, you can do things like point out what you really like about her piece, choose one thing that was unclear or not fully developed and say, "this part was interesting, I'd love to know more about this," and finish up with something else positive (otherwise known as the sandwich method, but it only works if you are sincere in your praise). Then let her mess with it and see what she comes up with.

 

I had a prof. in college who ONLY gave out positive comments. He used green ink and put a plus sign by any line he liked--we lived for those plus signs. If he underlined a line or put a comment by it, you knew you really knocked his socks off. Everyone's writing in that class improved because we learned what good writing was by having it pointed out to us.

 

Make it a point to point out good writing in read-alouds--not all the time of course, but to occasionally stop and savor something that is particularly well-written. A great hook, a great description, something that relates to the senses, something powerful. You can even restate it blandly & ask if it would have the same power if the author wrote it that way. These are things you can sometimes point out with a good copywork or dictation passage too.

 

Merry :-)