Magic Wand Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 We're former SWR users. One natural speller, one struggling speller. My kids actually asked me to use SWR again this year. I want to go back to this method, but not SWR. I want lesson plans and AAS looks just about perfect except it seems geared for younger students/beginners. If you're using this with older kids and/or remedial spelling would you mind sharing? What level did you start wtih? Can we jump into level 4? It looks level 5 is supposed to be released in August? The words look easy for my rising 5th grader, but it's the rules, phonograms and general methodology that I want to cement so she can apply those to any words...and I want lesson plans. SWR it too much for me this year. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siloam Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 We're former SWR users. One natural speller, one struggling speller. My kids actually asked me to use SWR again this year. I want to go back to this method, but not SWR. I want lesson plans and AAS looks just about perfect except it seems geared for younger students/beginners. If you're using this with older kids and/or remedial spelling would you mind sharing? What level did you start wtih? Can we jump into level 4? It looks level 5 is supposed to be released in August? The words look easy for my rising 5th grader, but it's the rules, phonograms and general methodology that I want to cement so she can apply those to any words...and I want lesson plans. SWR it too much for me this year. Thanks! Hi! I started my oldest, who was spelling at a 7th grade level in level 1. Now the words are easy for her. It took her 24 days (as there are 24 lessons, called steps) to finish it, but we have slowed down in level 2 to do all the dictation. The syllable work is new, so we are focusing on the concepts and not how easy the words are. I do know one gal who is using Megawords with AAS because it has a similar scope and sequence, but uses multi-syllable words. My 2nd dd who was at a 4th grade level in SWR is LOVING AAS because it is easy. She was starting to reach her frustration point with SWR. My 3rd dd is the reason why we switched. There was just too much at once and it totally overwhelmed her. The way AAS focuses on one rule at a time allows her to wrap her mind around it first. Then you review with them all mixed together and she continues to get them right. There is a list of what each book covers at the website, but if Marry comes along she will post it for you. I suspect you would need to start with either level 1 or 2 as SWR doesn't cover syllables. Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryAtHope Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 There is a list of what each book covers at the website, but if Marry comes along she will post it for you. I suspect you would need to start with either level 1 or 2 as SWR doesn't cover syllables. Heather LOL, I'll post the list below.:001_smile: I started it with my kids at 9 & 11 yo's a year ago, and started them in Level 2. We hadn't used SWR, but had done lots of segmenting & phonogram work with Reading Reflex. That said, it was a good level for us to start with (some words were easy for my kids, some not). I did use the Level 1 material packet to catch up on some of the extra phonogram sounds though (my kids knew long & short vowels but hadn't internalized some of the other additional sounds). When you start with older kids, you teach the lesson but if they know the words, you don't have to make them spell all the words--just have them apply the rules to a few sample words to show they understand and move on. I have a link to my blog on AAS in my siggy where I tell about our journey more. There is an FAQ article on the AAS website about whether to start in Level 1 or 2 too. The list Heather referred to--hope this helps you decide!: Here is a list of when various phonograms are covered: Level 1 covers #1-32: the alphabet plus th, sh, ch, ck, ng, and nk Level 2 covers#33-43: wh, ee, er, ar, or (as in corn), ou, oy, oi, aw, au, and ow. Level 3 covers #44-53: ay, ai, ur, oa, oo, ea, ed, igh, ir, ey Level 4 covers #54-65: tch, dge, ew, ei, wr, kn, or (as in work),eigh, ear, ph, ti, oe Levels 5 and 6 will cover the remaining 7 phonograms. Also, Level 2 of AAS works a lot on learning the syllable types, when they are used and how they affect spelling. This information is foundational to learning to spell longer words. 3 syllable types are introduced in Level 2, and then more in Level 3. Here is an overview of levels 1-4: Level One: - How to say and write the first 32 phonograms - How to segment words into their individual sounds - Short and long vowel sounds - Digraphs th, sh, and ch - Segmenting words with blends - Initial and final blends - How to choose between c and k at the beginning of a word - How to spell /k/ at the end of a word - When to double f, l, and s - Consonant team “NGâ€, “NK†- Compound Words - How to form plural words by adding s or es - Open and closed syllable types - How to identify and count syllables in a word Level Two: - Review of level 1 - “Y†sounds - The open and closed syllable types - How to divide words into syllables - Combining open and closed syllables - How to spell multisyllable words - When y can say /î/ - How Silent E can make a vowel long - The vowel-consonant-e syllable type - Two spellings for the sound of /z/ - The two sounds of long u - The difference between hard and soft c and g - Ways to spell long e - That English words don’t end in i, j, u, or v - When to use oi/oy, aw/au, and ow/ou - Most common /er/, /ar/, /or/ spellings Level Three: - Review - Two additional ways to spell the sound of long a - Five reasons for adding a silent e to the end of a word - C+le syllable types - More ways to spell the sound of long o - Homophones - When to double consonants before adding suffixes - When to drop the silent e before adding a suffix - The three sounds of past tense suffix –ed - Y to I Rule for adding suffixes - More ways to spell long e - Additional ways to spell the sound of /er/ - More ways to spell long i - Common contractions Level Four: - Review - How to add prefixes - Months of the year - Numbers up to one hundred - Days of the week - Common abbreviations - Spelling strategies that will help him tackle longer words with ease - Multisyllable words application - When to use ch or tch for the sound of /ch/ - When to use the three ways to spell the sound of /j/ - Additional ways to spell the sound of /er/ Merry :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lisabees Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Merry and Heather, I am not the OP, but have read many old posts from each you, regarding AAS. I, too, have an older child - 13 year old dyslexic son, who is just starting hs. He is actually not a horrible speller. He spells very phonetically when it is a mistake. Complane instead of complain etc. Mainly, his problems are with long vowel sounds. Are there rules as to when you use ee, instead of ea, ei, ey or e_e etc? Does AAS explain those rules? Or does ds just need to read more? Reading has been such a struggle - I don't think he has ever read a complete novel on his own. We are now going through REWARDS which is amazing - forcing him to slow down, seeing words in chunks, instead of guessing. I just don't know whether to start him with Megawords or AAS at this point. He is not happy about starting all over, doing baby stuff! But, I'll sure do what is needed. Thank you! Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom4him Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 Merry and Heather, I am not the OP, but have read many old posts from each you, regarding AAS. I, too, have an older child - 13 year old dyslexic son, who is just starting hs. He is actually not a horrible speller. He spells very phonetically when it is a mistake. Complane instead of complain etc. Mainly, his problems are with long vowel sounds. Are there rules as to when you use ee, instead of ea, ei, ey or e_e etc? Does AAS explain those rules? Or does ds just need to read more? Reading has been such a struggle - I don't think he has ever read a complete novel on his own. We are now going through REWARDS which is amazing - forcing him to slow down, seeing words in chunks, instead of guessing. I just don't know whether to start him with Megawords or AAS at this point. He is not happy about starting all over, doing baby stuff! But, I'll sure do what is needed. Thank you! Lisa I am not Merry nor Heather but thought I would share some of the things that has help us. My two aren't as old as your ds but this spring we did some back up. My ds is going into the 3rd grad and my dd is going into the 4th grade. Ds was struggling so with reading and as I prayed I felt to start him in the R&S reading/phonics at the 1st grade level. I am telling you this to explain I didn't tell him he was doing first grade stuff, I told him that we were starting at the beginning to lay a better foundation for him. I did basically the same with my dd. She is a good reader but I felt that she need some shoring up in the phonics area. I started her in the 2nd grade. The awesome thing is my ds took off. He is really reading now and enjoying it. My dd is going through 3 grade lib. books at a rate of 10 per wk and most of the time she has read them all 2-3 times in that weeks time. With AAS if you choose to use it I would start at the beginning and explain that it isn't a grade level but where you start. I would then go through it as fast as he is grasping it. Explain about the laying of a foundation, boys expecially get this. You can't build a strong house if you have a shabby foundation. The wind and rain will destroy the house. Reading is the same way. If you jump ahead you will never be a good reader because the wind and rain of words you can't just guess at will destroy the content. Just my thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Wand Posted July 3, 2009 Author Share Posted July 3, 2009 for providing such a detailed synopsis. I'm going to have to go back and look at the sample lessons again. I think that doing as you say and skimming over easy words by just using a sample or two of words that demonstrate the rule(s) or phonogram(s) would easily bring us to where we need to be. I think both my kids could easily go into level 2, but would benefit from learning about syllabication in level 1. We might up zipping right through it, which is a bummer because of the expense of moving through the levels so quickly, but it would really make sure they were cemented from the beginning. Thanks for sharing all of your experiences. It's such a help. Wanda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryAtHope Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Merry and Heather, I am not the OP, but have read many old posts from each you, regarding AAS. I, too, have an older child - 13 year old dyslexic son, who is just starting hs. He is actually not a horrible speller. He spells very phonetically when it is a mistake. Complane instead of complain etc. Mainly, his problems are with long vowel sounds. Are there rules as to when you use ee, instead of ea, ei, ey or e_e etc? Does AAS explain those rules? There are not always rules (too bad, huh?!) There are some...ey is not used in the middle of a word for example, and ei is not used at the end. e_e words are rare compared to the other spellings. What AAS does with patterns when there are not rules is to introduce the easiest or most frequent patterns first. There is a word bank for the student to read to become familiar with which words follow that pattern. After the student has had an opportunity to become fluent with that pattern, then, half a book to a book later, another pattern for the same sound will be introduced. Then after that they practice word-sorting so they can choose the right pattern for the right word. They employ scratch-paper writing--testing the word out first & then choosing the right one (so, visual recall) for these. There's also lots of built in review, including dictation and the Spelling Review Box; Spelling Review Box = after the student learns a word, it is not "retired." We revisit the word in future lessons and make sure that it is indeed mastered. If the student needs additional practice, the word is put behind the "Review" divider in their Spelling Review Box. Or does ds just need to read more? Reading has been such a struggle - I don't think he has ever read a complete novel on his own. We are now going through REWARDS which is amazing - forcing him to slow down, seeing words in chunks, instead of guessing. You know, I think the work in segmenting and learning about syllable types, plus learning more about how the phonograms work, have all really helped my kids' reading to improve this year. So, whether you use AAS or something else, I would look for those kinds of components to help your son. As I said above, if you want to use AAS, just use the easier words as a sample for demonstrating (you could even let him know that you are just looking to fill in any gaps in his knowledge, because the rules apply to longer & harder words too). I make it a point to talk about the patterns in harder words too, as they come up. So they get to see the rules and patterns being applied in all different areas. I think Megawords is a neat program. It's been awhile since I looked at it (I tried it when my oldest was 4th grade but it was too soon for him at that point). So I don't know exactly how they compare. Hope you find what will work for your son! Merry :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lisabees Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Thank you Sandy and Merry for your thoughts and experience! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siloam Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Merry and Heather, I am not the OP, but have read many old posts from each you, regarding AAS. I, too, have an older child - 13 year old dyslexic son, who is just starting hs. He is actually not a horrible speller. He spells very phonetically when it is a mistake. Complane instead of complain etc. Mainly, his problems are with long vowel sounds. Are there rules as to when you use ee, instead of ea, ei, ey or e_e etc? Does AAS explain those rules? Or does ds just need to read more? Reading has been such a struggle - I don't think he has ever read a complete novel on his own. We are now going through REWARDS which is amazing - forcing him to slow down, seeing words in chunks, instead of guessing. I just don't know whether to start him with Megawords or AAS at this point. He is not happy about starting all over, doing baby stuff! But, I'll sure do what is needed. Thank you! Lisa Lisa, Oh that is a hard one. To be honest my spelling didn't improve till I took the time to care. Now knowing the rules had hands down helped. The way AAS demonstrates things with the ties and develops "procedures" also helps me see it better. After all I had learned all this with SWR. In the end through if I am in a hurt typing I rely on spell check and I don't take the time to really think about spelling. Also when I go back and proof I often read my mis-spelled words correctly. I just don't see it. If he is trying and just doesn't know the rules to apply them then I would say do AAS. If he doesn't even stop and ask or isn't trying then...I would do Megawords or Apples and Pears because they are easier on you and until he wants to improve you are just throwing stuff at him hoping it sticks. By all means focus your time on the reading before the spelling. Bad spelling is actually pretty common and many people use spell check. I am a horrible speller (dyslexic also) and have only had one job where it was an issue-and that was temp position that I didn't really want anyway. Reading issues on the other hand kept me from finishing my college degree. I got a teacher in my upper level accounting courses that insisted you read, do the work in the book, hand it in BEFORE class started and then did the lecture. I just couldn't read and process the information in the book fast enough to keep up with the class. The first time I took the class I was failing by 1/3 of the way through. The second time I took it I had an A for that first 1/3 because I had been able to process the information, but the second 1/3 I again was buried. I figure two more times taking the class and I would have passed, but this guy taught most of the upper level classes, so it was going to be a continuing issue. I was out of money as well, so there ended my college career. Spelling he can get around if needed, reading he can't. Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lisabees Posted July 4, 2009 Share Posted July 4, 2009 Thank you Heather for your advice. I THINK I have decided to go with Apples and Pears, maybe with Megawords as a supplement. Thoughts about doing both at the same time? The more I am learning about his weaknesses and strengths, the more I realize that at this point it is because he isn't trying/doesn't care. He is frustrated and defeated. Apples and Pears has a lot of dictating/writing. I think this may force him to think and write and hopefully retain. I guess that I'm hoping that learning to take apart words and write them will help with his reading. He just guesses words he doesn't know. Being in ps, he could do that and get away with it until he needed to read to learn. THEN, it affected his fluency and comprehension BIG time. My goal for this year is to allow him to take his time and learn to believe in the possibility that he CAN read. He just needs to learn how. Any thoughts on what we can use after REWARDS is done? I'd like for him to be able to decode more difficult words. Heather, I am always glad to read your perspective on things, since you are dyslexic yourself. I know each is different, but your insight is always appreciated. Lisa, who may still use AAS for her 6 and 10 year olds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siloam Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 Thank you Heather for your advice. I THINK I have decided to go with Apples and Pears, maybe with Megawords as a supplement. Thoughts about doing both at the same time? I hear that Apples and Pears has a ton of writing, so my first impression is that it would be too much. Because I have heard of remedial students doing well with Apples and Pears and I haven't specifically heard that about Megawords I would personally go with Apples and Pears. My goal for this year is to allow him to take his time and learn to believe in the possibility that he CAN read. He just needs to learn how. Any thoughts on what we can use after REWARDS is done? I'd like for him to be able to decode more difficult words. Heather, I am always glad to read your perspective on things, since you are dyslexic yourself. I know each is different, but your insight is always appreciated. I am glad to help! I don't know a lot about rewards. There are several O/G program out there that go through 12 grade reading levels. Barton Reading is usually held up as the gold standard simply because it included full DVD's of how to teach the program and is also fully scripted. It isn't cheap. Your ds would probably test out of the first couple of levels, but by level 3 or 4 he might not. Though if you went that route it also teaches spelling. After that Wilson teaches the same thing, but I am told it isn't super easy to teach. It just has more of an overview video and isn't as scripted. At this point Apples and Pears might take you there because spelling and reading are so closely related. My 2nd dd is reading pretty well, but as I stated earlier is pretty slow and convinced she is a bad reader, which is her biggest road block-her attitude. I am going to have her do Great Leaps in hopes that it will show her that she is a good reader, and improve her speed. Actually the best thing you probably could do is join the Heart of Reading yahoo group. Hopefully they would have more recommendations. Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 I started with level 1 with my 12yo. We went through it in just a few weeks, but there were things that he needed to learn from it, like the c rules and when to double letters on the end of a word. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Wand Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 I was thinking we'd start with level 2, but the more I've looked, heard and thought about it, it might be best just to begin at the beginning. I've got AAS on my list of phone calls to make tomorrow. My 12 yo is getting better at spelling. She's progressed to doubling most consonants when required and adding the e on the end of words. She still spells phonetically and needs instruction with -tion, -sion, -cial endings and the like. I wonder, and granted I haven't seem AAS other than the online samples, how it would work to use their methodology and add words from the list in a book like the ABC's and All Their Tricks. It might not even be necessary I was just thinking of ways to add harder words while starting at a lower level. Thanks for the input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radiobrain Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I will finish level 1 TODAY with my 9 & 10 year olds. I am very glad that I decided to start at the beginning. I didn't need to do all of the examples, or do too much review....like I probably would have had to do with a younger kid. It only took a few weeks. I am pretty confident now with their understanding of the rules in the first book and they enjoyed not having made a single mistake!! Well, one.. that was then figured out immediately and explained... by my son. I am really glad that I found this program, and then whenever we finish it, I feel that If I need to continue with spelling I will go on to Sequential spelling again. Luckily, I own the first 3 books already. I can see where an older kid might freak out thinking "this is way too easy and babyish" but I explained how it was important to lay the foundation and that it wouldn't take long etc etc. then they had fun with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fractalgal Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 We're former SWR users. One natural speller, one struggling speller. My kids actually asked me to use SWR again this year. I want to go back to this method, but not SWR. I want lesson plans and AAS looks just about perfect except it seems geared for younger students/beginners. If you're using this with older kids and/or remedial spelling would you mind sharing? What level did you start wtih? Can we jump into level 4? It looks level 5 is supposed to be released in August? The words look easy for my rising 5th grader, but it's the rules, phonograms and general methodology that I want to cement so she can apply those to any words...and I want lesson plans. SWR it too much for me this year. Thanks! My 9 yo used SWR last year. I reviewed level 4 of AAS, and I am not going to use it with her. It seems like too much review. She learned so much in SWR! I will wait and see what level 5 and 6 offer from AAS when they come out. She will use megawords instead and finish out the remaining lists of SWR. My 6 yo will begin in level 3 of AAS because he used SWR last year, and AAS seems like a good way to reinforce what he has learned in SWR. I do not think I will drop SWR with him, but I do like what I see in AAS and will incorporate it in. I think SWR is more streamlined and shows the big picture better. I am glad that I used SWR first. AAS does, on the other hand, seem easier to implement because you would not have to do the teacher notebook in advance as you would in SWR. I learned a lot from doing the notebook, however. AAS also reinforces concepts nicely. Good Luck :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Wand Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 Greg returned my call very promptly, I simply wasn't available. My concern is that the levels currently available are too easy. I had hoped that possibly the methodology would be productive even though the words might be too simplistic. My girls have a good handle on the SWR phonograms and rules, they just need more review. We need to do more with suffixes such as -ous, -ion, al, etc. and larger multisyllabic words. I also think that for my older dd, seeing the words in families would be helpful. It's hard to have obnoxious and beautiful in the same word list (those words actually are not in the same word list, I'm just using them to make a point) and make meaningful connections...at least for us. SWR groups words in a fashion that didn't foster those connections for us. My school year is shaping up nicely with the exception of spelling, which is giving me a headache. I have a Megwords book which I pulled out and looked at..again. I reviewed my Wise Guide...again, read more reviews online, scoured the RR catalog, looked at Cathy Duffy's reviews, spent time at the Sequential Spelling website, which looks interesting. What to do? I'm not sure yet. Because of our SWR background, we naturally fall back to those rules and phonograms. I've incorporated those into our spelling studies regardless of the programs we've used since SWR, b/c that's what we learned initially and now those rules are mostly memorized and embedded. I also appreciate that the rules are simple and concise. I just don't have it in me to go back to the full SWR program at this point. The reference pages were helpful, but marking the words was laborious. Again, this is just for us. The kids aren't particularly interested in using Megawords again, although they would. We used PZ last year, which was okay, but I ended up dictating all the words b/c the dictation process via CD was too slow for my kids. The PZ rules are also too long and crazy to remember easily and we fell back to reciting our SWR rules. That was a long way of saying I appreciate you comparing the two programs. I will talk to Greg about AAS, but I'm feeling more certain that the levels available are going to be too easy for us with the background we have. I think I'll give the girls a diagnostic test today. I haven't done that in several months and see where we shake out. Then it's back to the drawing board... Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siloam Posted July 9, 2009 Share Posted July 9, 2009 I was thinking we'd start with level 2, but the more I've looked, heard and thought about it, it might be best just to begin at the beginning. I've got AAS on my list of phone calls to make tomorrow. My 12 yo is getting better at spelling. She's progressed to doubling most consonants when required and adding the e on the end of words. She still spells phonetically and needs instruction with -tion, -sion, -cial endings and the like. I wonder, and granted I haven't seem AAS other than the online samples, how it would work to use their methodology and add words from the list in a book like the ABC's and All Their Tricks. It might not even be necessary I was just thinking of ways to add harder words while starting at a lower level. Thanks for the input. I don't see why that wouldn't work, or anywhere else that you could find words to fit the rules. This week I talked to my oldest about how easy it is and if she wanted to change/add anything, and she again said no. She is glad she is learning the syllable rules, and like me she likes the processes it teaches. In SWR she places at a 7th grade level, so AAS is hands down on the easy side. Not sure if that helps. :001_huh: Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magic Wand Posted July 9, 2009 Author Share Posted July 9, 2009 I was able to talk with Greg yesterday. I actually decided to purchase all the levels, up to 5, now that it's out. Yeah! I'm going to do just what you're doing and start at the beginning. The plan is this will cement syllabication and fill in any gaps. We'll just move as fast as we need to and it might be nice to have the confidence builder of easier words for awhile. I *think* I'm even going to do this with my natural speller. We'll try it on her and see how it goes. The truth is, there is benefit for all types of spellers in knowing the fundamental basics of phonograms, rules and syllabication. This is my opinion, of course. I was really excited that level 5 was available to order as well. Thanks for sharing your experience. It really has been helpful. Let's keep in touch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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