s/o - all you "non-spankers"...

[Tree House Academy]

This makes me wonder (and I'm not saying this in a snarky way, I promise, only trying to understand the thought process), what good came of spanking him then? It doesn't seem to have brought him from point A to point B as you intended--or do you feel that it has brought him most of the way? For example, I think of the example someone recently posted about spanking her 2 y.o. for getting out of the crib. It wasn't doing anyone any good. The toddler was still getting out of his crib, and the OP was still pulling her hair out and worrying for his safety. What purpose is spanking serving that consistently putting him back in his crib and thinking creatively about how to keep him there isn't going to end up serving anyway?

 

And I share your concerns about what to do about kids who are still defiant when they get older. My second is incredibly independent--not exactly defiant, I guess, but simply convinced that she is capable of doing whatever she wants. She lets very little stand in her way. She's not mean or rageful, just...convicted, I guess? I honestly don't know what our teenage years will bring. I console myself with the fact that I was just like her, and that personality trait, while bringing me head to head with my mother frequently, has served me well in life. My mom calls DD3 "Little Melissa" :lol:

 

 

At this point, I have literally tried everything I could think of for discipline. My son also has ADHD, but in an odd way. He is a smart child and does very well in school. He thinks outside the box and was often labeled "gifted" in ps. However, he will talk and interrupt and then has a terrible time understanding WHY someone would be irritated by this. :confused: Spanking was not something we did early on (up to about age 5) and it was not something we did regularly either. Most of his punishments involve taking things away, losing privilages, etc. We tried rewarding good behavior as well. Most discipline methods work for him for a short time, and then we are back to square 1. He and I are a lot like oil and water too - and that doesn't help. Couple that with his internal issues and now his anger issues and we have a nice little mess. I am not sure if the spanking even plays a role in his overall behavior at this point. Just because we do spank doesn't mean that it has been our main source of discipline. KWIM?

[melissel]

I am harkening back to my single sememster in law school some 20 years ago so I may not be completely accurate, but intent refers to your criminal intent. Did you intend to commit a crime?

 

For instance, A person goes into a store, picks up an item, walks out without paying. This may or may not be a crime. It depends upon the persons intent. Did the person think the item was already paid for, or perhaps the person thought he/she owned the item.

 

For instance, you run over a person in your car intending to kill him. This may or may not be a crime. Perhaps you were protecting the life of yourself or someone else.

 

In nearly all cases, intent is necessary for a crime to be comitted.

 

It is legal for me to strike an adult in certain strange cases as well. This has to do with my intent.

 

This makes legal sense. It is possible for you to be held legally liable for your child's actions. As a result, you are likely to be given more leeway in controlling that behavior than you would be in controlling the behavior of a perfect stranger. Hence, you can do things to your own child that you could not do to an adult.

 

I'm assuming that were I to strike an adult with the intent to teach him a lesson, that would be considered intent to commit a crime, since we can't just go around hitting adults to make our points. For example, if my brother-in-law keeps taking the keys to my car to run errands while I'm napping and I decide he needs a good spanking so that next time he'll remember that pain before he takes my keys again, I'd imagine he could bring me up on assault charges, no? Of course you can hit other adults to defend yourselves, but that's not what I'm talking about here. By all means, if your teenager is coming at you, you should feel free to defend yourself.

 

Yet, if my daughter keeps taking my makeup from the bathroom after being told not to and I decide to spank her so she'll remember that pain before she lays hands on my mascara again, I'm within my rights. After all, that's blatant disobedience, which most of you would spank for, I'm gathering.

 

And it is also possible to be held legally liable for other adults' actions. We still can't strike them at will to make a point.

Edited July 3, 2009 by melissel
clarifying a sentence

[Tree House Academy]

Rebecca,

 

Your 10yo sounds a lot like the 6yo I took in this Spring. He was kicked out of school because of his behavior. Mom and I had tried to work with the school before that point but they wanted to do things their way, which I understand to a degree. But then when it gets to a certain point, they just can't handle it. But I really think had they worked with me, I could have made school successful for this little guy.

 

The important part is to work from where your kiddo is with the LONG TERM goal in mind. Obviously short term discipline (punishing for mistake he's just made) isn't working to get you from point A to point B, like Melissa said. So we want to start thinking bigger in order to help him gain the life skills and tools he'll need.

 

I USUALLY do not ask people to stop spanking or punishing their kids. Instead, I simply ask them to start working on the good strong discipline, knowing the punishments will fall away to a large degree in time. However, I'm really thinking your son is probably being harmed by spanking (and time out probably is a bad choice also). Could you do something more like the "tomato staking" in order to build more with him and not push him away when he's angry or misbehaving? I think it'll be easier in time as you implement new things, but I'm just thinking you REALLY don't want to have a barrier like spanking or separation with a kiddo having these sorts of issues.

 

Just think about it. And though I ask questions and such, don't feel you ever need to answer me. It's really just for your own thinking processes.

 

I appreciate your insight and help Pamela. It has been a rough road and it seems to be getting rougher in many ways. I have a good friend/fellow homeschooling mom who has raised 3 kids and is now raising and adopted grandchild give me the advice to "pick one thing." It made so much sense. She said that, while I work on the one thing with him, I need to let the other stuff go (for the most part). This way, I am not trying to change everything all at once and he is not trying to please me on all levels when he is not sure what is expected of him.

 

The biggest thing for me, right now, is determining how serious he was when he picked up the fork today to threaten his brother because he was "mad." That scares me a bit. He is a good kid and he has a good heart, but he is getting on that slippery slope, I am afraid. One poor choice in a situation like that and there is no turning back. This time it was a fork...next time, what will it be? Maybe I am taking it too far or putting too much into it, but NOT taking it seriously would be so much worse.

 

Oh - and just for the record, something like this is NOT something I would spank for. I never would. Talk about anger! Today, his punishment was a long talk with mom, loss of privilage to go to yard sales with me (which he loves to do) and a day full of chores. He will work hard and think about his behavior. And, THERAPY. We really need to go see that therapist. Yesterday, I am afraid.

[melissel]

At this point, I have literally tried everything I could think of for discipline. My son also has ADHD, but in an odd way. He is a smart child and does very well in school. He thinks outside the box and was often labeled "gifted" in ps. However, he will talk and interrupt and then has a terrible time understanding WHY someone would be irritated by this. :confused: Spanking was not something we did early on (up to about age 5) and it was not something we did regularly either. Most of his punishments involve taking things away, losing privilages, etc. We tried rewarding good behavior as well. Most discipline methods work for him for a short time, and then we are back to square 1. He and I are a lot like oil and water too - and that doesn't help. Couple that with his internal issues and now his anger issues and we have a nice little mess. I am not sure if the spanking even plays a role in his overall behavior at this point. Just because we do spank doesn't mean that it has been our main source of discipline. KWIM?

 

I do know what you mean. I hate to ask it (and maybe you mentioned it and I didn't see), but have you gone the meds/therapy/alternative treatment route? Could that help get him to a point where then actual discipline DOES make a difference in his behavior? I don't know if those are things you would/did consider, just throwing out my inexperienced two cents. I hate to hear about kids and parents struggling together like this. I'm sorry you've had such a hard road with him.

 

ETA: I just read your post above and that you are considering therapy. That sounds like a good option. Best wishes for all of you.

[Tree House Academy]

I do know what you mean. I hate to ask it (and maybe you mentioned it and I didn't see), but have you gone the meds/therapy/alternative treatment route? Could that help get him to a point where then actual discipline DOES make a difference in his behavior? I don't know if those are things you would/did consider, just throwing out my inexperienced two cents. I hate to hear about kids and parents struggling together like this. I'm sorry you've had such a hard road with him.

 

ETA: I just read your post above and that you are considering therapy. That sounds like a good option. Best wishes for all of you.

 

 

We tried meds after he did the stabbing with the pencil in a school in GA. At that time, he didn't understand what he had done and the ramifications (like I believe he does now!), but he did it all the same. GA is not a state that messes around with kids and we had a hard time with the school after this. They all but demanded he be put on meds. I did one of the time released ones and it didn't help at.all. I did another type (similar to ritalin, can't remember which) and it brought him down about 1/2 a notch...but never enough for me to continue putting such chemicals in his body. When we moved here, the school was much easier to deal with and they handled him much better. He still was in trouble a lot, but he was doing better. Then I pulled him out to homeschool. People around us will say that he has gotten better and they see a positive change in him. However, I now see ALL of the stuff that the school saw on a daily basis and I feel he has gotten worse rather than better. He is still smart and still does well in school. He is also still distracted and does lots of heming and hawing about school work.

[Jorsay]

I'm assuming that were I to strike an adult with the intent to teach him a lesson, that would be considered intent to commit a crime, since we can't just go around hitting adults to make our points. For example, if my brother-in-law keeps taking the keys to my car to run errands while I'm napping and I decide he needs a good spanking so that next time he'll remember that pain before he takes my keys again, I'd imagine he could bring me up on assault charges, no? Of course you can hit other adults to defend yourselves, but that's not what I'm talking about here. By all means, if your teenager is coming at you, you should feel free to defend yourself. Yet, if my daughter keeps taking my makeup from the bathroom after being told not to and I decide to spank her so she'll remember that pain before she lays hands on my mascara again, I'm within my rights. After all, that's blatant disobedience, which most of you would spank for, I'm gathering.

 

 

 

This is not what is meant by criminal intent. For a crime to be comitted, there must be criminal intent. I believe that this applies even to criminal neglegence. This means that you must be intending to commit a crime. Yes, what your school teacher used to say "ignorance of the law is no excuse" is not exactly correct.

 

You can also think about an insane person. If an insane person kills, is he automatically convicted of murder? No, because he must be proven to have had intent. In other words, he knew what he was doing AND he knew it was wrong. The second part is required.

 

 

 

 

And it is also possible to be held legally liable for other adults' actions. We still can't strike them at will to make a point.

 

No. It is not legally possible to be held responsible for the actions of another adult. You must have criminal intent. Perhaps there is a lawyer on the forum who can explain this much better than I.

 

I don't think you would agree with your own argument under the following conditions:

 

Let's say that I want to take my family on vacation. My 8 year old doesn't want to go. I take her anyway. Should I be charged with kidnapping?

 

I ground my daughter to the house. Shall I be charged with false imprisonment?

 

I take my daughter's cell phone. Shall I be charged with stealing?

 

The answer to these questions is probably no, and is at least not unequivocal. Why should the answer to "I spank my daughter for running into the street. Shall I be charged with assualt?" be unequivocal?

[Pamela H in Texas]

next time, what will it be? Maybe I am taking it too far or putting too much into it, but NOT taking it seriously would be so much worse.

 

I don't believe you are thinking too much of it. I think it was a scary thing to have happened and definitely worth considering.

 

What I would have done in that situation, just for an example....

 

Immediately, I would have whisked him off. I would have just let us sit there a moment so we could both get our bearings (because he was mad and *I* would have been a bit nutty inside myself). When I felt I could speak reasonably to him, I would have asked him if he also was ready to discuss it. I would be fine with him not being so. I would ask him if he would like to just continue sitting there (I'm picturing sitting on the porch btw) or if he'd rather go to his room til he was ready. A shower, the closet, whatever also would be fine with me.

 

When he was ready, we'd chat. I would encourage him to think about what exactly REALLY happened and how he felt. I would also ask him to consider his brother's feelings at each part of the situation. The idea is to get HIM talking and thinking. I would have asked him at what point HE could have changed things for the positive. If he couldn't come up with it, give him a couple ideas. Which does he like? What could he have done differently? What would have happened had he done that? Which idea does he like best and would like to try next time in the situation?

 

The idea is for him to be able to fix the situation next time rather than worrying how he messed up this time.

 

If you "tomato stake," you can guide him through these sorts of things early on when something is going on. You can have a cue between you for him to take a second and think. You can help him come up with solutions, evaluate them, and choose one. That way you can head off some issues in the same way you discipline (teach) from issues that do come to fruition.

 

One more thing I would do is have him apologize along with "bless" his sibling. He can either say "I am sorry" if he is or "I was wrong." He has to take responsibility whether or not he was sorry. He also makes it up to his brother. We always make things up to people. We either pay restitution if we can AND/or we do something else a little special for them. Sadly, we can't take back what happens, but we don't just let it stand either.

 

Maybe you did some of the above with him? Lecturing won't work. He'll tune you out But if HE is the one talking and thinking, it'll get deep inside him.

 

Punishing him does what? Does it teach him to do better next time? No. Because he doesn't have those skills from which to draw. It also allows him to focus on HIM and how HE feels (about the incident and now about the punishment). He isn't thinking about his brother and making things right and not doing that again. He's thinking about how he's got all this junk he has to do, he can't go to garage sales, and got lectured. Phooey. It's all about him and his punishment rather than fixing the situation and learning so it doesn't happen again.

 

And this really isn't one of those things you can deter. First, he's having issues that need professional help. YOu can't deter THAT. And second, this wasn't a planned misbehavior; it was an instantaneous poor choice because he's lacking skills he needs. He isn't going to think, "last time I had a triple punishment," he's simply going to react based on the ingrained skills he has (which we need to beef up and FAST in his case).

 

Does that make sense? Punishment in this situation adds nothing positive and possibly detracts from what good discipline you did. But instead of thinking about the good stuff (to get it ingrained), he's thinking of the triple punishment.

 

Was this any help?

[astrid]

I only have one child, so I suppose in the view of many, my opinion/experience doesn't even count, but our daughter is 12 and has never, ever, been spanked.

 

She is polite to a fault, kind, helpful, considerate and when asked how we discipline her, dh and I look at each other and shrug. While rudeness, disrespect, laziness and selfish behavior have never, ever been tolerated in our home, we've never really had to get on her case about anything.

 

Good kid, I guess.

 

astrid

[melissel]

This is not what is meant by criminal intent. For a crime to be comitted, there must be criminal intent.

 

I can't see how, for example, taking a belt to someone who scratched your car in the parking lot to "teach them a lesson" would not be considered criminal in a court unless you were pleading insanity, which is not the issue we're discussing here. IMO, the intent is to hurt the person. On a completely off-topic sideshoot, I'd be interested to see what a lawyer would say about that.

 

No. It is not legally possible to be held responsible for the actions of another adult. You must have criminal intent. Perhaps there is a lawyer on the forum who can explain this much better than I.

 

You are probably right. I think I'm actually thinking of civil court.

 

I don't think you would agree with your own argument under the following conditions:

 

Let's say that I want to take my family on vacation. My 8 year old doesn't want to go. I take her anyway. Should I be charged with kidnapping?

 

I ground my daughter to the house. Shall I be charged with false imprisonment?

 

I take my daughter's cell phone. Shall I be charged with stealing?

 

The answer to these questions is probably no, and is at least not unequivocal. Why should the answer to "I spank my daughter for running into the street. Shall I be charged with assualt?" be unequivocal?

 

Good points. I could make up alternate arguments that would seem silly, of course. Unfortunately, I don't think these examples are exactly apples to apples. And I would argue that legally, but more importantly, morally, bodily integrity is for everyone. Physical punishment with the intent to "incite fear and terror" should be illegal, period. Otherwise, who gets to draw the line between damaging and not damaging? A bare hand on a clothed bottom is OK, but a bare hand on a bare bottom is over the line. A bare hand on a bare bottom is OK, but a wooden spoon or belt is over the line. A belt is OK, but twist of the arm is not. A twist of the arm is OK, but a fist to the side of the head is not. All those methods cause pain and incite fear and terror, right? I bet a fist to the side of the head would bring about obedience more surely than a hand on a clothed bottom. So why stop at the spank? How could you expect others to? What standards do you hold the fist users to, and why?

 

I would love to keep going round with this, but I have a splitting headache that's threatening to turn into a migraine and two kids to keep away from a dead chipmunk. Feel free to respond, or not, since I know we're not going to change each others' minds. In spite of that, you did get me thinking :D

[Jorsay]

On a completely off-topic sideshoot, I'd be interested to see what a lawyer would say about that.

 

 

I would like to hear this as well. There is a good chance that I am not exactly right about the legalities.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I am not a lawyer, either, but I just don't see how everything could come down to intent. It would be too easy to say, "I didn't intend to commit the crime".

 

To use the shoplifting example from an earlier post, if you 'accidentally' shoplift something, it is my understanding that you are still liable for the act and can still face punishment for it. It would be too easy for anyone caught to say, "Gee, officer, I had no idea that that television was under my coat!"

 

 

You can call it a smack, a swat, a spanking, a pop, but it all comes down to this: one person striking another to inflict pain.

 

 

To those to say that the "bible tells me so":

 

If my religion told me that I had to hit kids to be a part of the religion or to please god, well, I would have to NOT be a part of that religion.

[Tree House Academy]

I don't believe you are thinking too much of it. I think it was a scary thing to have happened and definitely worth considering.

 

What I would have done in that situation, just for an example....

 

Immediately, I would have whisked him off. I would have just let us sit there a moment so we could both get our bearings (because he was mad and *I* would have been a bit nutty inside myself). When I felt I could speak reasonably to him, I would have asked him if he also was ready to discuss it. I would be fine with him not being so. I would ask him if he would like to just continue sitting there (I'm picturing sitting on the porch btw) or if he'd rather go to his room til he was ready. A shower, the closet, whatever also would be fine with me.

 

When he was ready, we'd chat. I would encourage him to think about what exactly REALLY happened and how he felt. I would also ask him to consider his brother's feelings at each part of the situation. The idea is to get HIM talking and thinking. I would have asked him at what point HE could have changed things for the positive. If he couldn't come up with it, give him a couple ideas. Which does he like? What could he have done differently? What would have happened had he done that? Which idea does he like best and would like to try next time in the situation?

 

The idea is for him to be able to fix the situation next time rather than worrying how he messed up this time.

 

If you "tomato stake," you can guide him through these sorts of things early on when something is going on. You can have a cue between you for him to take a second and think. You can help him come up with solutions, evaluate them, and choose one. That way you can head off some issues in the same way you discipline (teach) from issues that do come to fruition.

 

One more thing I would do is have him apologize along with "bless" his sibling. He can either say "I am sorry" if he is or "I was wrong." He has to take responsibility whether or not he was sorry. He also makes it up to his brother. We always make things up to people. We either pay restitution if we can AND/or we do something else a little special for them. Sadly, we can't take back what happens, but we don't just let it stand either.

 

Maybe you did some of the above with him? Lecturing won't work. He'll tune you out But if HE is the one talking and thinking, it'll get deep inside him.

 

Punishing him does what? Does it teach him to do better next time? No. Because he doesn't have those skills from which to draw. It also allows him to focus on HIM and how HE feels (about the incident and now about the punishment). He isn't thinking about his brother and making things right and not doing that again. He's thinking about how he's got all this junk he has to do, he can't go to garage sales, and got lectured. Phooey. It's all about him and his punishment rather than fixing the situation and learning so it doesn't happen again.

 

And this really isn't one of those things you can deter. First, he's having issues that need professional help. YOu can't deter THAT. And second, this wasn't a planned misbehavior; it was an instantaneous poor choice because he's lacking skills he needs. He isn't going to think, "last time I had a triple punishment," he's simply going to react based on the ingrained skills he has (which we need to beef up and FAST in his case).

 

Does that make sense? Punishment in this situation adds nothing positive and possibly detracts from what good discipline you did. But instead of thinking about the good stuff (to get it ingrained), he's thinking of the triple punishment.

 

Was this any help?

 

I did a lot of that - particularly the talking. Immediately after it happened, my husband was on the scene because I was on the phone. Once I got off the phone, dh had sent ds to the man room to think about what he had done. He was in there a good 10-15 minutes. Then, dh and I went downstairs to talk about what had gone on as he knew it - because I really was not involved until the action and fighting was over.

 

Once we had talked, I called older ds AND younger ds downstairs to get the facts together. What happened was this: ds10 was standing at the pantry with the door open when ds6 pushed past him to get a glass for some water. Not sure what happened, but ds10 and ds6 were yelling back and forth and ds6 started trying to shove ds10 out of the way to get to the water that ds10 was apparently now blocking out of spite. It was then (during the pushing) that ds10 grabbed the fork off his breakfast plate and held it above his sholder in a "stop or I will hurt you with this" type stance. When dh went in, ds10 had put down the fork and ds6 was tattling on ds10 as fast as he could. Ds10 lied to dh about 3 times before confessing that he, indeed, grabbed the fork and held it threateningly at ds6.

 

Once ds10 and ds6 stated their stories, I sent ds6 out of the room and ds10 and I had a long talk. We talked about his intentions ("I wasn't going to hurt him"), we talked about how he would feel if I did this to his step-dad or his step-dad did it to me. We discussed what he should have done (come tell us, sit down and not react to the initial pushing past him to get the water, etc). Then I talking with him deeply and openly about the slippery slope and how that, once an action like that is taken, there is no turning back. I posed to him an instance in which he realizes that he didn't stop at threatening and he sees blood from stabbing the fork in his brother's head/sholder/whatever. This was hard for me, but it was definitely a shocking thought for my son too. His ADHD tends to keep him from thinking about what *could* happen and instead, he often just lives in the moment and the uh-oh comes after.

 

We also talked about his behavior and what would happen if adults were to threaten someone like that. We discussed what could happen to him if this became a pattern and what could happen to him if his therapist felt he was a danger to himself or others. He had tears running down his face the whole time. He was not sobbing and when I asked him what had made him cry, he said he didn't know. He never gave me a good answer.

 

The punishment ...He has chores anyway, but instead of having fun today, he stayed home and did this weekend's chores instead (mowing the yard, weeding the garden with step-dad, cleaning out the garage (sweeping, etc), and helping to pick the veggies that were ripe. I could not see taking a child to something he considered a "treat" when he had just done what he had just done. KWIM? He had a great day, did his chores well, and he is now playing with his brother quietly and happily.

 

The problem that I have is that this could happen again...and then we go back to the slippery slope. I will say, without detail, that I was a very ANGRY child and was abused physically by my father (I did not live with him, though, thank God!). I too took a few walks on the slippery slope. Now, at the age of 30, all I can do is THANK GOD that I didn't do some of the things I could have done. My mom should have helped me. She should have found someone for me to talk to, work with, get help from. She didn't. It was only by the grace of God that I didn't make some really huge mistakes. My son is headed in the same direction...maybe worse. I have to help him NOW. I can't rely on luck or grace when I see it and know I can do something about it as long as I act instead of sitting here and waiting.

 

If you pray, would you mind saying a few for us?:(

[Tree House Academy]

I am not a lawyer, either, but I just don't see how everything could come down to intent. It would be too easy to say, "I didn't intend to commit the crime".

 

To use the shoplifting example from an earlier post, if you 'accidentally' shoplift something, it is my understanding that you are still liable for the act and can still face punishment for it. It would be too easy for anyone caught to say, "Gee, officer, I had no idea that that television was under my coat!"

 

 

You can call it a smack, a swat, a spanking, a pop, but it all comes down to this: one person striking another to inflict pain.

 

 

To those to say that the "bible tells me so":

 

If my religion told me that I had to hit kids to be a part of the religion or to please god, well, I would have to NOT be a part of that religion.

 

 

This reminds me of the discussion I had with my son today about his fork incident. I told him that "Well, I never meant to stab my brother" just wasn't going to cut it. "If YOU picked up the fork because you were mad, and YOU lunged it toward your brother, then YOU did it. Meaning to hurt, kill, bruise, mame, or MISS all together, that doesn't change the fact that YOU did it."

 

But, I think this is different than spanking by a mile too. My open hand on a clothed bottom is NOT the same as me picking up a fork and plunging it into someone....

[Firefly]

I don't have any pearls of wisdom for you, Rebecca, but I just wanted to say I'm sorry you're going through this with your DS. :grouphug:

[Jorsay]

I am not a lawyer, either, but I just don't see how everything could come down to intent. It would be too easy to say, "I didn't intend to commit the crime".

 

To use the shoplifting example from an earlier post, if you 'accidentally' shoplift something, it is my understanding that you are still liable for the act and can still face punishment for it. It would be too easy for anyone caught to say, "Gee, officer, I had no idea that that television was under my coat!"

 

 

 

I believe that it is not a crime if a jury finds that you accidently took something. And yes, I believe that "Gee, officer, I had no idea that that television was under my coat!", if true, is legitimate.

 

I found the following at http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Intent:

 

"In Criminal Law the concept of criminal intent has been called mens rea, which refers to a criminal or wrongful purpose. If a person innocently causes harm, then she or he lacks mens rea and, under this concept, should not be criminally prosecuted.

 

Although the concept of mens rea is generally accepted, problems arise in applying it to particular cases. Some crimes require a very high degree of intent, whereas others require substantially less. Larceny, for example, requires that the defendant intentionally take property to which the person knows he or she is not entitled, intending to deprive the rightful owner of possession permanently. On the other hand, negligent homicide requires only that the defendant negligently cause another's death."

 

This was also there, but I don't think it applies to the act of shoplifting mentioned above:

 

"Criminal law dispenses with the intent requirement in many property-related crimes. Under Common Law the prosecution had to establish that the defendant intended to steal or destroy property. By 1900 many statutes eliminated the "intent-to-defraud" requirement for property crimes. Passing a bad check, obtaining property under False Pretenses, selling mortgaged property, and embezzling while holding public office no longer required criminal intent."

 

On a side note, what I learned in law school destroyed my faith in the legal system. Nearly nothing is cut and dry, and most of it seems to depend upon how well your lawyer argues and which judge and jury you happen to get.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Rebecca, may I ask what the discipline for ds6 included? I know you were focused on sharing about ds10 for obvious reasons, but...

[RegularMom]

Well, my goodness... hearing this whole story really changes the entire tone of your initial post. My apologies for my frostiness. The way you approached asking for this advice is now understandable. You are under a lot of duress and your child is in crisis, and it sounds like a scary place to be.

 

I agree with everything Pamela is saying here, and I will be saying a prayer for all of you, that this comes to resolution somehow.

 

The only other thing I can think to add to all the good stuff Pamela has already written, is to maybe consider adding some Yoga to your son's schedule. Or if not Yoga, then some sort of exercise program that teaches peaceful relaxation techniques, so that when he finds himself at that boiling point, he can try some deep breathing or relaxation skills to calm down? It might be worth a try.

 

Peace to you, dear. I'm wishing you and yours all the best.

[Tree House Academy]

Well, my goodness... hearing this whole story really changes the entire tone of your initial post. My apologies for my frostiness. The way you approached asking for this advice is now understandable. You are under a lot of duress and your child is in crisis, and it sounds like a scary place to be.

 

I agree with everything Pamela is saying here, and I will be saying a prayer for all of you, that this comes to resolution somehow.

 

The only other thing I can think to add to all the good stuff Pamela has already written, is to maybe consider adding some Yoga to your son's schedule. Or if not Yoga, then some sort of exercise program that teaches peaceful relaxation techniques, so that when he finds himself at that boiling point, he can try some deep breathing or relaxation skills to calm down? It might be worth a try.

 

Peace to you, dear. I'm wishing you and yours all the best.

 

 

Thanks! It has been a rough couple of days. I appreciate the understanding and prayers. :grouphug:

[Tree House Academy]

Rebecca, may I ask what the discipline for ds6 included? I know you were focused on sharing about ds10 for obvious reasons, but...

 

Unfortunately, there was none *hangs head in shame now.* This is definitely an issue for me. I tend to focus on the "major offense" and let the other slide more often than I should. Little brother was being a butt head too and I should have dealt with both. In this situation, I was so focused on the action that caused me fear and panic and I totally ignored the little dude pushing and shoving and yelling. :(

[Pamela H in Texas]

Rebecca, I think it is reasonable to focus on the scary thing. I was just thinking how your ds10 may see the issue of you not disciplining 6yo though you triple punished him.

 

Also, your 6yo is really at a perfect age for you to make a major difference in how he'll turn out at 10, 12, 17yrs old. He probably has fewer risk issues, but you can give him a much better chance by beefing up your discipline with him.

 

The good thing about stronger discipline methods is that there isn't an expiration date. You can EASILY teach, coach, guide even a day or two after a situation though punishment would seem unfair so late after a situation.

[Dooley]

I have a 17, 15, 11 and 9. I have spanked our oldest a million times. I think I may have spanked the second one once and never for the other two. I believe in spanking - in our case, there was precious little that got our older childs attention. The other kids were just not hard to reach, they were all very well behaved, and no, I dont think its 'cause they saw what their sister went through! Just different type of kid.

 

I had a neighbor, who has one 9 yog, tell me she would be happy to deal with my teen, she would just straighten her out over the weekend. .....okay....

 

Anyway, my teen is a great kid, strong personality, and will go far in life and we are both glad "those" days are over!

[Dooley]

I hope this does not sound snarky or rude, cause I dont mean it too.

 

In all honesty, if someone is unclear on the real difference between a spanking and a beating, then by all means, they probably should not spank.

[Dooley]

Tree House Academy -

 

Hopefully this isnt in your future, but regarding my oldest whom I spanked A LOT....in the not too distant past, the things that worked (for a time, but they did work) was 1) taking absolutely everything away - no mascara, no phone, no TV, computer, friends, free time...increased schoolwork and must be attached to my hip when we were not at home. About 2 years later, when things again got way out of control I did this 2) Took her to the local police (she had drugs in her purse) to turn her in (couldn't cause it was not in that jurisdiction), stripped her room of EVERYTHING, including most clothes, got a list of shelters for troubled teens, had her sign a contract with us as to what she would and would not be doing and letting her know, that the moment she chose to go beyond the bounds of our household rules, I would be taking her to the shelter.

 

So in essence, we really had to take off the gloves in dealing with this one child. Do I love her? More than my life. Would I EVER wish harm upon her? Never. But am I willing to make tough decisions to influence this hard heart. Yes.

 

You had asked in an earlier post for ideas!!

 

Hey, parenting is not for the weak of heart - its awesome that some kids and families will never have to experience Tough Love, or go through difficult times/make hard decisions. But you are not alone!!!!

[Dooley]

I always said I'd never spank. Like I said in the other thread, I never had to spank my first two dc.

 

I *hate* spanking. Biblically, I think the rod may not be meant literally, as many interpret it. I don't know, I'm not a scholar, just a lay person.

 

However, I started spanking my third for severe infractions 6 months ago because it is the ONLY form of discipline that gets her attention. Nothing.Else.Does. But, I feel so guilty about it that I don't think I can continue. And, I do it in a controlled fashion without being angry, etc. Still, spanking makes me feel like a failure as a parent.

 

 

You are not a failure. We are sinful people. We are born with a "bent". I think (dont mean to be snarky AGAIN, jut MHO) todays ideas are not very helpful to the real problems. Its PC not to spank, and dont we wish we never even had to think about it. But you are a loving mama that wants her child to be a success, to be a wonderful person, to be known for her integrity and composure.....we ALL want those things for our children. And because we are not exactly alike in any way, some kids need more help than others. I always ask my kids "Why do we have a fence? We have a fence so kids or animals dont run out into the road and get hit by a car. A fence is for protection. Its a boundary between safe and unsafe. Just like rules in our lives are boundary lines, we dont go beyond them, for our protection, for our good - for our lives! So dont push the rules (fences), they are meant to help you."

[melissel]

I hope this does not sound snarky or rude, cause I dont mean it too.

 

In all honesty, if someone is unclear on the real difference between a spanking and a beating, then by all means, they probably should not spank.

 

I'm not sure if this is directed at me because I read in linear mode, and it seems to be "below the current depth" in hybrid mode, but I know the difference between a spanking and a beating, and I don't support either one. From my perspective, neither is appropriate. I would bet my last dollar that more people in this country hurt their children in anger than provide the calm, calculated spankings that have been discussed in the other thread. Several people have pointed out that they spank with a foreign object, and at least one believes a belt is just peachy. I know that the parents here who spank know the difference between a beating and a spanking. I simply don't agree with protecting the right to hurt our children in either manner just because they're ours.

[melissel]

Pamela, how much would it take to fly you out here for a week to follow me around and correct my parenting as I go??? You're very wise. Your kids are lucky.

[Dooley]

Melissel, No, nothing is directed at you. I have not read this whole thread, so I have no idea what you have posted! I wish you nothing but success in whatever means works for you and your children!

[Caroline]

Pamela, how much would it take to fly you out here for a week to follow me around and correct my parenting as I go??? You're very wise. Your kids are lucky.

 

And after your house, she could come to mine.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I'm not sure if this is directed at me because I read in linear mode, and it seems to be "below the current depth" in hybrid mode, but I know the difference between a spanking and a beating, and I don't support either one. From my perspective, neither is appropriate. I would bet my last dollar that more people in this country hurt their children in anger than provide the calm, calculated spankings that have been discussed in the other thread. Several people have pointed out that they spank with a foreign object, and at least one believes a belt is just peachy. I know that the parents here who spank know the difference between a beating and a spanking. I simply don't agree with protecting the right to hurt our children in either manner just because they're ours.

 

 

 

:iagree: