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Is grammar really necessary?


Tohru
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We haven't really done any grammar at all and my ds is 12yo going into 7th grade.

 

He is an avid reader and hates writing. I slacked for years and didn't do penmanship because he disliked it so much. Next thing I know, he is going into middle school and still doesn't want to physically use a pen or pencil. :toetap05: I've started IEW with him and he seems to like that alright but still detests using pens and pencils. (A friend also recently suggested teaching him to type. duh on my part)

 

Anyway, his understanding of high quality literature is great, so I think that once he can overcome the "hate to hold a pencil" he might be okay with writing.

 

So my question is, is grammar really necessary? :001_unsure:

 

Wouldn't reading good literature be better than a curriculum for grammar? Or should I consider having him use Analytical Grammar or something like that this year? Any other ideas or suggestions?

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No, grammar are not necessary. :D

 

Seriously though, if he's reading high quality stuff, and he speaks it well, then probably not so much. I think a good overview would be good to give a name to things. Karen Elizabeth Gordon has some funny books and I know there are quite a few favorites of those types of books around that's not strictly a curriculum. I'm not as familiar with AG, but from what I've read about it on these boards, it sounds good. Also you could look at some of the stuff on the KISS grammar website and see if that looks good; it's free, so you could see if he has trouble with anything in particular. Does he have any foreign language experience at all?

 

We do fairly intensive grammar here because we like it and my dd writes an enormous amount for fun and for school.

 

Oh and the pen issue. My dd (11) is a typer. She wants to type everything: math, rough drafts, everything. On things that I'd rather her write, I let her pick out some cool pens and pencils. We like jetpens and she picked out some cool mechanicals, some with violet leads and she loves to use them. She still prefers to type, but her notebooks are colorful. :)

 

As to the necessity. I think it really depends. I also think the answers differ from person to person. DH will grunt and groan about the grammar in applications he looks over. He'll hire someone with no experience if they can fill out an application decently. I also think that it comes naturally to some and not to others. To tell the truth though, I'm not sure if it's all that important to know that a gerund can be the subject of a sentence, but I find it terribly interesting. I also didn't learn it until I was in my thirties. In school, I don't remember grammar at all, but I read quite a bit.

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He won't get any better at grammar, the longer you put it off. You really aren't doing him any favors by avoiding teaching him. At some point, it becomes a character issue -- our dc need to learn to do things even when they seem difficult or unpleasant. It's part of growing up.

 

AG is a popular choice for students your son's age. If you do a board search, you'll find several other good choices.

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I think you just describe my dd at that age. We began Rod & Staff and now she is correcting grammar every which way and wants to pursue a career in the English/Writing field! We started with Grade 5 because it is a very foundational level and she has done fabulous, in fact, this is the one subject that I have no regrets in now!

 

Blessings~

Jenn

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I think at least the basics are necessary.

I would recommend Winston Grammar for that type of kid (I have one just the same- reads heaps of high quality literature, hates to write). Its not as rigorous as many here use but it gets the basics covered in a painless way. I think it is important to be able to say "thats a noun" and "thats an adjective" and kow the subject/direct object, and action/being verbs, just as absolute minimums. It's not about knowing grammar- it's basic cultural literacy. You may be surprised too- my son hate to write and reads well, spells fairly well- and his grammar is fairly good, adn he enjoys filling out his grammar worksheets.

 

I also wouldnt wait till he actually wants to hold a pen/pencil before making him. The best advice I ever got from a homeschool mum of 6 was to keep my reluctant writer writing even though he didnt want to. Its very hard to make a 15yo write if he doesnt want to (her experience), and a bit late. Better to start as early as you can to build the actual physical muscles, as well as the mental ones. It does get easier for them with practice- doesn't mean they will ever love it.

Its a bit like eating your main meal before eating your dessert. It's good for you.

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I didn't learn grammar at school beyond nouns and action verbs. I can put together a decent sentence for the most part, although I'm positive that people with good grammar knowledge could pull apart my writing.

 

I really wish I'd learnt proper grammar. I often look at a sentence and know it's wrong. I can play with that sentence until it looks/sounds right, but I don't know the rules to follow to make it right. Knowing the rules would make everything so much easier. I realised when I did a writing course with the boys and had my grammar corrected that it is far from perfect even now, even after reading hundreds of examples of fabulous literature. I'm a voracious reader, and my grammar still leaves a LOT to be desired.

 

I have made sure that J is doing a rigorous grammar program, because I believe that that is a serious flaw in the New Zealand and Australian school systems. We are using AG with J and will use it with the other two kids too when the time comes.

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I've always been pretty laissez-faire about the grammar end of things.

 

Test results aren't the be all, end all (of that I'm sure) but we recently had our boys tested with the Canadian Achievement Test and I was shocked at how poorly my oldest did on the grammar end of things. He does grammar independantly and I haven't formally taught him anything.

 

Well, to make a long story short, he *outdid* himself on every area of the test with the exception of language/grammar. Couldn't find a subject/verb if it jumped off the page and bit him. I was shocked by this . . . we do GWG and Lively Latin. GWG independantly, LL as teacher-led. He's been more than exposed to subjects, verbs, predicates . . .

 

Go figure.

 

Is grammar study important? If you aren't worried about testing or placement marks, I think kids can manage in the world just fine without knowing grammar. If you're relying on test marks for academic placement, I would suspect grammar needs to be formally taught.

 

I'll certainly be changing my strategy in the fall and looking at KISS grammar as my spine as well as other options to make up what we've missed.

 

Warmly, Tricia

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He won't get any better at grammar, the longer you put it off. You really aren't doing him any favors by avoiding teaching him. At some point, it becomes a character issue -- our dc need to learn to do things even when they seem difficult or unpleasant. It's part of growing up.

 

I agree. Really, I'm not so sure about the need for early grammar, but I really think most things should at least start to be covered by 12.

 

And really, it doesn't have to be horrible. There are lots of options. You don't have to saddle him with Abeka (which would be absolutely horrible according to almost everyone who has ever used their middle school grammar program).

 

One program is Thinking Through Grammar. You could give him the 6th grade level this year and the Freshman next (there isn't anything inbetween for some reason). It takes all of 5-10 minutes per day, but makes it USABLE.

 

There are any number of programs, but after a year exposure, you might turn to Jensen's (which will probably take over a year to complete). That could be a solid ending of grammar even.

 

But a couple years to get the concepts ingrained is necessary, imo.

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I don't like grammar either, nor do my kids. Nonetheless, a little can go a long way.

 

Your son and my kids have quite a bit in common. They are none too good on penmanship, and writing is something they'll do back-flips to avoid. I'll share some of my strategies with you, and maybe there will be something you can use here:

 

1. We use Mavis Beacon's Typing, in tandem with the expectation that they compose a great deal in MS Word. MS Word catches quite a few of their errors, and allows them a few more tools for composing. I appreciate this.

 

2. My son is 10. He uses Handwriting Without Tears. He likes it just fine. I love it. It's the first handwriting program that hasn't reduced me, the teacher/parent, to tears:

 

http://www.hwtears.com/

 

My daughter just turned 13. Both kids are refugees from the public schools, where handwriting is a forgotten art. Her handwriting stinks, but the appropriate workbooks feel too babyish for her. I have her do a lot of copy-work, and I choose grammatically correct, high interest material. I download the leaves of her homemade copybook from:

 

http://www.donnayoung.org/penmanship/handwriting-paper.htm

 

The beauty of this site is that the lines and spacings can be tweaked until the paper is exactly perfect for the student.

 

2. Parts of speech don't have to be a misery to learn. We play Mad Libs on family game nights and on road trips.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Best-Mad-Libs-Roger-Price/dp/0843126981/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246531506&sr=8-4

 

3. We have used a workbook entitled The Language Mechanic from the Critical Thinking Company to great success. It is very strong on practical application, and somewhat enjoyable. It makes a good Unit Study of Grammar, rather than a full year's program. We will undoubtedly use parts of it this year. It is one of my best resources, one of those workbooks I've taken out of its binding and put in a loose leaf notebook for easier reproduction.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Language-Mechanic-Tuning-English-Logic/dp/0894557610/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246531878&sr=1-1

 

Don't pay full price for this book! It's been out for a long time, is very popular, and is readily available on the used market.

 

4. Editing Skills are very important. They are the link between the grind of learning formal grammar and the joy of effortless application. For this reason, I gave strong consideration to using several titles in the "Editor in Chief" series from the Critical Thinking Company. In the end, I invested in three titles from the "Grammar With a Giggle" series:

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b_0_14?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=grammar+with+a+giggle&sprefix=grammar+with+a

 

 

Hopefully there are some idea here that will prove useful to you.

 

Blessings,

 

Elizabeth

Edited by Elizabeth Conley
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If your kids have any interest in languages at all, then yes. Trying to learn someone else's grammar when you don't know your own is pretty tricky.

 

Rosie

 

In the UK in the 1970s no grammar was taught at all in primary school. I arrived at senior school and started learning French. The French teacher just taught parts of speech as she went along: 'Today we are going to learn the verb 'avoir' to have - it's a verb, verbs are doing and being words.'

 

It really wasn't a big issue.

 

Laura

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So my question is, is grammar really necessary? :001_unsure:

 

Necessary for what? If you can work out an answer to that question, you'll be better able to decide the answer to your other question.

 

For us, grammar is necessary as one of the tools to help us think more clearly in life. Sure, I got along for 40 years without much grammar knowledge beyond what nouns, verbs, and adjectives are. But now that I'm taking my kids through the R&S grammar books, I find myself stopping to think before I write something, before I say something, to *try* to phrase my thoughts the way I want to, instead of writing/saying mumbo jumbo because my thoughts were confused and hoping the other person would understand. I also *try* listening/reading more carefully what other people say/write, so I can better understand what they're trying to communicate. I diagram sentences in my head sometimes to figure it out, too. For us, learning grammar is part of learning to think clearly. And I think a solid grammar education works nicely alongside lots of good reading, to help a person write clearly (which means he is thinking clearly).

 

EDIT: one more thought - I think studying grammar also gives you a language and some concepts to use when teaching writing skills and helping your child edit. It makes the editing process easier.

Edited by Colleen in NS
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12 is the perfect age to study grammar and it will benefit him with his writing. Do this now in middle school so he can spend his HS years using his knowledge of grammar in his writing. Grammar isn't something that has to be time-consuming to be effective. Great literature is a great way to internalize proper grammar but doesn't always translate to great writing.....especially in a boy who won't hold a pencil!

 

Typing obviously is a skill he needs but so is handwriting if he plans on going to college. There are in-class essays to be written so having a legible handwriting is necessary. It really shouldn't take him more than 1 year to develop a legible handwriting and a good typing speed. I would do this before highschool!

 

IMHO, not studying grammar AND not wanting to write (hold a pen or pencil) is going to be a huge disadvantage for him as he moves into highschool and eventually the adult world.

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Grammar exists whether you study it or not.

 

Some people have naturally better grammar than others, for whatever reason. Reading good literature probably helps, although I know people who are well read whose grammar sucks.

 

A year or two of a good *study* of grammar helps most people. After that, when you correct your ds's writing, you can say, "Dear, you used the subjective pronoun and you should have used the objective," and he'll know what you mean, as opposed to your saying, "Dear, that doesn't sound right," or "this thingie here should be this other thingie.":)

 

I do not believe it's necessary to study grammar for 12 years. I do believe it's good to study it *some*.

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I second the Madlibs. This is a great and fun way to teach parts of speech. I know my daughters really enjoy this.

As for writing its not something that is my oldest's favorite thing to do but its one of those things. It doesn't have to be fun but its got to be done.

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Yes, I think that a basic course in grammar is a very good thing. One can certainly analyze literature and write good papers without an in depth understanding of grammar. I did it, even though we did some in ps I only had a basic sense.

 

If he ever chooses to be an editor, however, then a strong grasp of grammar is imperative, IMO. I really understood grammar once I took a year of German in university by doing German grammar. If he's studying Latin and the grammar with that, he certainly won't need a lot of English grammar.

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He won't get any better at grammar, the longer you put it off. You really aren't doing him any favors by avoiding teaching him. At some point, it becomes a character issue -- our dc need to learn to do things even when they seem difficult or unpleasant. It's part of growing up.

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: Oh, and did I mention that I agree?

 

:lol:

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I'm with Laura -- I don't remember learning much grammar in school in the 1970s. When I took French in grades 7 to 12, I learned (and retained) a lot of grammar that I then applied to English.

 

I have mixed feelings about this subject. I get that grammar can be fun, like a puzzle. I have friends who re-read Strunk and White for fun. On the other hand, I'm not sure that some of it is necessary to remember as an adult. I'm just starting grammar with my kids and I don't remember offhand how to diagram a sentence, or even what a gerund is (though I think that's coming back to me). It will be fun to relearn it, of course.

 

That said, I work in a field (law) where people's intelligence and persuasiveness can be completely undermined by improper grammar and spelling. It can really affect hiring and retention decisions as well. One thing I see in young people we hire is the inability to proofread. They may know grammar and spelling, but not be able to carefully review a document, so when I get it it is riddled with errors. I'm not sure what to say/do about that, and I certainly haven't been a perfect parent about teaching/requiring these things. But being able to use correct grammar certainly does have real life advantages.

 

Now I'll worry about all the mistakes I made in this post, including whether I should have hyphenated real life. :001_smile:

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Bypass the "hates to hold a pencil" syndrome by teaching him to type.

 

I wonder how well someone can "understand" literature without knowing even the rudiments of grammar and mechanics. Have you ever read the delightful Eats, Shoots & Leaves ? Both the one for adults and the one for children are wonderful !

 

http://www.amazon.com/Eats-Shoots-Leaves-Tolerance-Punctuation/dp/1592402038/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246550316&sr=8-1 [for adults]

 

http://www.amazon.com/Eats-Shoots-Leaves-Commas-Difference/dp/0399244913/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246550316&sr=8-2 [for kids]

 

I'm still picking up (from the general atmosphere) that prospective employers place a high value on communication skills -- which includes written communication of various types.

 

Then there is the disliked-yet-can't-avoid standardized testing for college admission, even for community college.

 

I won't underestimate the "fights" you may have on your hands for standing firm about teaching grammar, mechanics, and composition. But I think it's akin to enforced brushing of teeth. One does not enjoy gumming ones meals because the teeth have fallen out. Nor does one profit (either financially or in self-confidence) if one is restricted to lower-wage, lower-responsibility adult jobs because one did not complete a basic education, of which grammar and writing still are considered key components.

 

Wow. Are we ever ganging up on you ! :001_smile:

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First off, you have to look at grammar as more than parts of speech. Just knowing those gets you almost nothing.

 

To be competent writers we need to know our mechanics (commas, usage, etc.) Having a firm knowledge of where every comma goes and WHY allows writers to focus on the message and not the possibility of embarrassing themselves.

 

To master mechanics we must learn and MASTER grammar because that's what the mechanics rules and usage rules are based on.

 

So ...

 

It's entirely possible to master grammar rather quickly; it's not a big body of knowledge. You haven't waited too long or anything. It's important, though, to find something that covers the whole body of knowledge (even those pesky phrases and clauses) to mastery.

 

So many of us never learned these rules and are unwittingly embarrassing ourselves when we write or speak. That's what happens when you "wing it" with grammar. The thing I tell my students is that I teach them grammar because I don't want them to embarrass themselves and MORE IMPORTANTLY ME!:tongue_smilie: People know I am their teacher! You never know who is going to be reading what you write or listening to what you say. They may know better and will judge you on your mistakes. It's not fair, but it's life.

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Yes, you have to.

The methods, length of time you spend on it, and applications will vary from person to person.

At the very, very least, he'll need it for the SAT, if he wants to go to college. He could do ok on the writing portion (not the essay, the multiple choice) by just using his "ear," which is probably well-developed by the quality of literature you have had him read. He'll do much better on the tricky bits if he's had formal grammar--about 1/4 to 1/3 of the writing portion requires more than average knowledge. (That's an estimate, based on my Princeton Review teaching backround--and on preparing my own son, who didn't have a lot of grammar.)

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Yes, indeed. If he's one of the lucky ones, he's picking up a lot of grammar via his reading, and he will be able to work through the basics quickly.

 

Grammar is not something that needs to take a great deal of time, but I do think it's something that needs to be covered.

 

However, as the hs mom of an avid, advanced reader, I can assure you that not every student who can read and discuss books capably is lucky enough to pick up the skills that support writing (spelling, grammar) by osmosis.

 

Reading and writing are very different skills; a poor reader is nearly certain to be a poor writer, but it doesn't follow that a good reader will neccessarily be a good writer.

 

And a person can be a good writer in the sense of being an interesting writer with something important to say, but poor grammar will hinder that, and will hinder other people's appreciation of that.

 

Being able to put your ideas into words (ie, discuss a book) is an important skill. But the next step (putting your ideas into writing) by no means automatically follows. SWB's talks on writing have excellent explanations of this.

 

As far as the physical act of writing, I would teach him to type alongside daily handwriting practice, not instead of it. I own a laptop and a netbook, but I still need to take physical notes more often than you would imagine.

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grammar via reading good literature. I do think spoken grammar is learned via environment. Grammar is more than learning the parts of speech; it's learning good sentence structure and punctuation, and this, I think, needs to be explicitly taught (how to form a possessive, how to punctuate with commas, verb agreement).

 

As an aside, I was and remain an enthusiastic reader. I learned almost no traditional grammar in my progressive elementary and high school. I have struggled all my life with good writing.

 

In our house teaching good mechanics and usage are absolutely necessary; grammar terms are less immediately needed, imo.

 

If you don't want an intensive grammar program consider a less rigorous workbook like Evan Moor: http://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Punctuation-Grade-6-Evan-Moor/dp/1557998507/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246553725&sr=8-5

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Well, my opinion is that learning the grammar of each subject is part of the grammar stage. And if grammar is important, English grammar must be important.

 

I think that it's important. I agree with a lot of what has been said about it.

 

I didn't learn it, and I struggled greatly with other languages. My ability to learn another language improved when my English grammar improved.

 

And learning grammar doesn't require a pencil. Grammar predates the modern pencil. Many kids have "pencil allergies" - you can bypass that with the computer, dry erase markers/boards or chalk/slate etc or by simply doing the writing for them while they tell you what/where to put things.

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I just wanted to pop in here and say that grammar can be taught through reading challenging literature as long as the child is also proficient in copywork and dictation taken from said literature (IMHO). Those two disciplines make the jump from the page to the mind of the child. Later on a dissection of grammar taken from great books will not be a huge leap or a great difficulty and can be done in the course of a year or two. If the child has not done a great deal of copywork and dictation then a traditional grammar program is needed for a longer time (again my opinion only).

 

I was looking at my son's copywork from the other day which was taken from a Rudyard Kipling book. His sentences were veeeery long and complicated. I think exposure to this kind of writing stretches a child's understanding of word usage and grammar more than short, "age appropriate" sentences which illustrate a particular point--say a noun, verb, or prep phrase.

 

For what its worth I love DGP Grammar because it is very short and makes a nice addition for kid who already copy and dictate a lot without adding a whole new class into the mix.

 

So, yes, I think grammar is necessary, but how you get there has many options and doesn't need to be boring or difficult.

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I had only just started to learn grammar in Germany (4th grade--I remember learning the four cases of nouns) when we moved to the US. From 5th-12th grade, my formal grammar instruction included learning some parts of speech and identifying subjects and predicates.

 

Voracious reading saved me to some extent, in that I could generally recognize what sounded good or not. When I took the SAT, I scored as high as possible on the Test of Standard Written English.

 

However, I've always felt disadvantaged by my lack of formal grammar instruction. A couple of college-level courses (3 semsesters of Attic Greek and 1 semester of the History of the English Language) were particularly tough. I had no idea what terms like "subjunctive" or "mood" meant, so I had extra background learning to do just to figure out how to apply something in another language (or such an old form of English that it might as well be another language!)

 

So, while I think that it's possible to be able to speak and write properly (most of the time;)) and do well academically without formal grammar instruction, I think that implicitly studying grammar is still important. I hope that my children will be able to function like my grandmother (and others from her generation) who still knows her grammar inside and out, AND can figure arithmetic problems mentally with ease. :) (I know that's another topic altogether! ;))

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I went through FLL3 with dd this past school year. She could tell you what a predicate nominative is, name all the parts of speech, recite all the prepositions, etc., but often her written and spoken grammar still is lacking in many areas. She will still mix up the use of is and are, have run on sentences, write a sentence with no subject, etc. She can diagram all the sentences in FLL3, but it hasn't seemed to help at all with her written work.

 

I'm really wishing now that the past year I would have spent MUCH more time on copywork and dictation and that is my plan for next year. I do think grammar instruction is important, but now I'm leaning more toward having her do copywork and dictation this coming school year and maybe even next year as well and then I will have her go through a grammar program in Gr. 7&8. I'll still make sure she knows the parts of speech, but obviously having her diagram sentences and underline prepositional sentences and identify the different kinds of verbs hasn't done much for her grammar skills this year :(

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I went through FLL3 with dd this past school year. She could tell you what a predicate nominative is, name all the parts of speech, recite all the prepositions, etc., but often her written and spoken grammar still is lacking in many areas. She will still mix up the use of is and are, have run on sentences, write a sentence with no subject, etc. She can diagram all the sentences in FLL3, but it hasn't seemed to help at all with her written work.

 

I'm really wishing now that the past year I would have spent MUCH more time on copywork and dictation and that is my plan for next year. I do think grammar instruction is important, but now I'm leaning more toward having her do copywork and dictation this coming school year and maybe even next year as well and then I will have her go through a grammar program in Gr. 7&8. I'll still make sure she knows the parts of speech, but obviously having her diagram sentences and underline prepositional sentences and identify the different kinds of verbs hasn't done much for her grammar skills this year :(

 

Sometimes it takes a few years of earlier practice before kids can apply their skills. Having those definitions memorized early on, and some concepts introduced can go a long way in the middle grade years when they're more impatient.:lol:

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Sometimes it takes a few years of earlier practice before kids can apply their skills. Having those definitions memorized early on, and some concepts introduced can go a long way in the middle grade years when they're more impatient.:lol:

I agree.

 

As for those who are saying that a person can learn grammar by reading great literature, I disagree. There is a lot of "great literature" out there that doesn't use the proper mechanics of the English language. I'm a firm believer that learning the basics of grammar is as important as learning the basics of math.

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There is a lot of "great literature" out there that doesn't use the proper mechanics of the English language.

 

And I'm thinking that another advantage of systematically learning proper grammar and doing exercises, and then writing using proper grammar, is so that when you get really good at writing grammatically correctly, you can then break some rules *knowingly* to have some sort of effect. ??

 

Too long of a sentence, but hopefully you get my drift. Hey, I'm only up to R&S 6 (beginning). :lol:

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And I'm thinking that another advantage of systematically learning proper grammar and doing exercises, and then writing using proper grammar, is so that when you get really good at writing grammatically correctly, you can then break some rules *knowingly* to have some sort of effect. ??

 

Too long of a sentence, but hopefully you get my drift. Hey, I'm only up to R&S 6 (beginning). :lol:

 

 

Well, sort of, yeah! :tongue_smilie::tongue_smilie::tongue_smilie:Many of our mechanics rules were only solidified in about the last 150 years. Therefore you'll have classics (Twain and Dickens are great examples) where commas are thrown around like wedding rice! These "differences" are fun for discussion IF you have a student who knows his 11 commas rules AND knows where NOT to put commas (that's just as important as knowing those 11 rules). It's with those students that teachers can have meaningful discussions about WHY the author chose to punctuate the way he did. There are all sorts of nuances there, and for self-professed grammar geeks like me I love it! It's really very interesting. (I know, I'm a dork ... what can I say!):D:D:D

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These "differences" are fun for discussion IF you have a student who knows his 11 commas rules AND knows where NOT to put commas (that's just as important as knowing those 11 rules). It's with those students that teachers can have meaningful discussions about WHY the author chose to punctuate the way he did.

 

Joining the geekdom. I love it, too.

 

Your point and my point are examples to me of how grammar knowledge can provide for all sorts of literary fun!

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Add me to the grammar geek squad! Apparently, my son, who is 10, is following in my footsteps. He often points out incorrect punctuation to me when he reads something. Then again, he sometimes corrects my spoken English. :p

 

I grew up in a very rural area where we butchered the English language, and I didn't make attempts to speak correctly until college. My 11th grade advanced grammar and composition teacher used me as an example of someone who speaks horribly but can still write properly; she said, "Thank God Judy LastName doesn't write the way she speaks!" :lol:

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Yes, I do think it's important, and agree that it can take different forms in each family, but it definitely should be taught and learned!

 

I didn't get it much at all in school either, and I feel I've missed out on possibilities of things I could have done. My dh learned English grammar when he took French in Highschool. That's where it really solidified for him.

 

With his help, I am making sure our kids understand grammar and usage!

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Thank you for all the replies.

 

I'm also in the never-studied-grammar boat but still managed to ace my college entrance exams. My English scores were in the top 10%.

 

Elizabeth, your post was incredibly helpful and I really appreciate the time you took to offer so many resources. I'll look into them.

 

Collen in NS, thank you most especially for helping me rethink my position with your comment:

 

Necessary for what? If you can work out an answer to that question, you'll be better able to decide the answer to your other question.

 

 

I guess I should probably asses what I think is important for ds and how learning grammar fits into that. He already expresses himself well and did study Latin in 2nd and 3rd grade.

 

This is such a fantastic group!

 

Thanks again for all the replies. At this point we'll probably go with Analytical Grammar or Winston Grammar... maybe or maybe something else.

Edited by jadedone80
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grammar via reading good literature. I do think spoken grammar is learned via environment.

 

 

This is a good point. When I mentioned that I could write with only a basic understanding of grammar, I was taught excellent spoken grammar both at home and at school. Perhaps not the rules, but how to speak correctly. I can't say that I haven't lapsed at all, but that's important.

 

My kids do R&S starting with gr 5 and I make them diagram. However, I'm quite a stickler and thoroughly enjoyed the humour and salient points in Eats, Shoots and Leaves.

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I was a voracious reader as a kid, though not the high quality lit. I now wish it had been:glare:. I understood the basics of sentence structure, but truly hated diagramming sentences as much as I hated algebra.

 

That said, I now wish I had paid more attention. Why? To better understand the Bible. Perhaps learning Latin or some other language will provide the same benefit. When I hear an expository preacher stating that, "The Greek (or Latin) word for 'x' is ___________, but since it is in the imperative form, this is understood to mean _______________," I gain a deeper understanding of the Word.

 

I have to say I've been slack in grammar. I've tried a few things with my 10yo over the last couple of years, but have not given it the diligence its due. He learned the parts of speech from a $store poster I hung for a year or so. This helped when starting EG last year. EG is a good, logical program, but we both struggle with it, so I'm considering wwe, fll, or wt for this year...probably at a grade below so I can multi level teach and cover some lost ground at the same time. :001_huh:

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