ekarl2 Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Okay, I have a 17m-old son who is, to be honest, a PITA! He's adorable, sweet, loving, and a lot of fun, but he's CONSTANTLY getting into things he shouldn't (for his own safety), throwing food and toys, etc. I know the "Raising Godly Tomatoes" side of this argument. I see sense there. But I'd really love to find a way to get to him without the pops. You know? I don't want this thread to be a discussion of pops/spanks v. none. That's not what I'm seeking. I want to know what, practically, I can do to make his understand what he can and can't do if I don't want to pop him on the behind. He's bright and understands a lot of what I say. He doesn't talk a lot yet, though. He knows what "no" means. When I tell him no, he'll give me that "c'mon lady" sideways glance and grin at me. You know? Sometimes he'll mind, but he'll be right back at it when my back is turned for 2 seconds. And what about throwing food and toys? Help? Anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciyates Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Have you tried a time out blanket? Not sure it will work but I have seen it done before. You place a small blanket or large towel in the corner and set him in for a few minutes for disobeying. When you put him on it just tell him what he did. If he gets up keep putting him back. Not sure if that concept is too complex for a little one or not. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4kiddies Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Isn't that part of being an 18 mo? I know that is how my dd18 mo is right now and how my prior 3 were also. I'm not overly concerned about it, she'll grow out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyK Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I have one like that and time outs worked really well. In fact, he told me when he was 5 or so that he would like it if I put him in time out faster so he didn't get so out of control, and then have to be reeled in. I gladly complied. :) I know folks who like 1-2-3 (I think there is a video as well as a book) and love and logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Erin, Good parenting of an active, into everything toddler is hands on, supervisory based, and done with realistic knowledge of age and developmental stages. He is going to need you to follow him around, redirect and organize his environment; with or without "pops". Good parenting at this age and stage is active. It's often tedious, boring and infuriating. Cognitively inderstanding "no" does not mean he'll have the maturity or impulse control to obey. You can't punish children into maturity. You can't spank them into the next stage of development. Often what we do at this stage is simply what fills the time until they mature out of it. At this stage, the get off your but directions found on my site are all that's needed. Adding a "pop" to it won't accelerate the learning and it often means "popping" an awful lot (which I think is a poor atmosphere. Popping should be - if present at all - relatively rare.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jplain Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 :iagree: Yeah, what she said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty ethel rackham Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Erin, Good parenting of an active, into everything toddler is hands on, supervisory based, and done with realistic knowledge of age and developmental stages. He is going to need you to follow him around, redirect and organize his environment; with or without "pops". our household, that often meant removing temptation where possible. Dr. Sears, in his The Discipline Book, talks about setting the child up for success, by creating an environment where it is easy to behave. Cognitively inderstanding "no" does not mean he'll have the maturity or impulse control to obey. You can't punish children into maturity. You can't spank them into the next stage of development. Often what we do at this stage is simply what fills the time until they mature out of it. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrganicAnn Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) Rearrange your environment so he can't be constantly getting into trouble. Move things out of his reach. Use gates to block off areas. Keep doors closed to rooms that you need him to keep out of. If necessary add locks up high on those doors. Don't leave him alone in a room/area. Take him with you. If he is doing things like picking up things and putting them in his mouth. For the most part they won't hurt him. My DD put everything from mulch to a dust covered raisin in her mouth to see it was tasty. But keep dangerous things out of his reach. Send time actually explaining things to your son. Explain what a stove does, how it gets hot, how adults have to use oven mittens. How children aren't allow near it. Then the next day ask if children are allowed to cook on stove. Things that he might like explained electrical sockets, air condition vents, microwaves, etc. ETA: For throwing toys/food. First food. Don't put too much food on his plate at any one time. When he finishes what he has, then give more. So there won't be too much food to throw. If he throws he might not be hungry, so maybe end the meal. Not in a punitive way, but just realizing that a toddler will eat when hungry and play when not. Throwing toys. Don't give any encouragement to the behavior. Maybe say we will do some throwing when we're go outside but no throwing inside. Then take him outside and let him throw to his heart's content. Edited July 1, 2009 by OrganicAnn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekarl2 Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 Erin, Good parenting of an active, into everything toddler is hands on, supervisory based, and done with realistic knowledge of age and developmental stages. He is going to need you to follow him around, redirect and organize his environment; with or without "pops". Good parenting at this age and stage is active. It's often tedious, boring and infuriating. Cognitively inderstanding "no" does not mean he'll have the maturity or impulse control to obey. You can't punish children into maturity. You can't spank them into the next stage of development. Often what we do at this stage is simply what fills the time until they mature out of it. At this stage, the get off your but directions found on my site are all that's needed. Adding a "pop" to it won't accelerate the learning and it often means "popping" an awful lot (which I think is a poor atmosphere. Popping should be - if present at all - relatively rare.) Joanne, This has been VERY helpful. Thank you. I've spent a few minutes on your site (beautifully designed, BTW) and feel better knowing that I'm doing a whole lot of that stuff. Yay me! Can you give me a practical thing for toy/food throwing, though? Everything else I can see how GOYBP tips work well (and I already do a lot of that, so I'm feeling much better!), but I'm struggling with how to attack that particular problem. Thanks, all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4kiddies Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Well I'm not JOanne but when my dd18 mo starts throwing food that means she's done and I take it away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekarl2 Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 Well I'm not JOanne but when my dd18 mo starts throwing food that means she's done and I take it away. Yeah, I do that, but he doesn't seem to care. He's such a BOY! :tongue_smilie::tongue_smilie::tongue_smilie: My daughter did it when she was young, but she got the message pretty quickly. Him ... not so much ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Is he getting enough sleep at night? My younger son would start "acting up" at that age and generally, it had to do with sleep issues. When he slept fully, it seemed he could become content more easily. An alternative to time out would be redirection. When he gets into something, don't just correct him and turn your back - move him to the next activity and get him engaged in something else that you prefer. I remember that I would let my ds play in a cabinet in the kitchen. I picked one, cleared out all the dangerous stuff, put in little plastic tubs and wooden spoons, and he would have a ball. He thought he was getting into something exciting, and I knew he was safe. :) And it was so much easier to let him have some freedom there than it was to constantly be correcting him to stay out of the cabinets. Soon, he knew the one he could play in and didn't even try the others. And I often changed out the "stuff" so it was new and different. That and his play yard in the living room were the two best things we did! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jplain Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Some toddlers are grazers rather than 3 meals/day eaters. Offering more frequent snacks or small meals might make you feel more comfortable with taking food away as soon as he starts throwing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keptwoman Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I would say that at that age you would be aiming to child proof to minimise the need to say No. Then redirect, redirect, redirect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekarl2 Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 Is he getting enough sleep at night? My younger son would start "acting up" at that age and generally, it had to do with sleep issues. When he slept fully, it seemed he could become content more easily. An alternative to time out would be redirection. When he gets into something, don't just correct him and turn your back - move him to the next activity and get him engaged in something else that you prefer. I remember that I would let my ds play in a cabinet in the kitchen. I picked one, cleared out all the dangerous stuff, put in little plastic tubs and wooden spoons, and he would have a ball. He thought he was getting into something exciting, and I knew he was safe. :) And it was so much easier to let him have some freedom there than it was to constantly be correcting him to stay out of the cabinets. Soon, he knew the one he could play in and didn't even try the others. And I often changed out the "stuff" so it was new and different. That and his play yard in the living room were the two best things we did! I'm very blessed that both my kiddos are good sleepers. He sleeps about 12 to 12.5 hours straight at night and takes 1.5 to 2 nap in the afternoon. He is cutting molars and that is probably a big part of it, though. I should just :chillpill: and wait for him to cut all those darn teeth! He has a cabinet and drawer he's allowed to get into. I hadn't thought of changing stuff out, though, that's a good idea! We have gates and locks to keep him out of places he shouldn't be. But he loves to climb, so to make the house truly safe for him would mean living in a padded, furniture-less room! :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terabith Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 What does he like to climb? Does he climb bookshelves, etc? I would set up a living/ play area that has chairs/ couches for you, some toys, maybe a very small child sized table, and low shelves with toys. Mostly empty space, so he can climb (table, low shelf, furniture), but is safe. Put down a soft throw rug. Pad corners of things like fireplace/ table. Whatever is sharp. Don't worry about him jumping off of lower heights. Make a main space for him that is safe. We got a lot of use out of an old double bed mattress on the floor for jumping. Consider a play pen, maybe for your older child to play with things that he doesn't want the baby to get into. So your three year old can build with legos or color in a play pen, but the baby can't get to it. Make it ok for big kid to go to room and close door. Kitchen can be pretty child safe with locks and a couple cabinets that are pots/ pans/ unbreakable things he can play with. Something I really like is the Michael Olaf Montessori catalog. It's a catalog, which means they are selling things, but they have a beautiful description of parenting and Montessori philosophy. http://www.michaelolaf.com/JCcontents.html I love Montessori for the toddler years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 We use redirection, removing temptations (where possible), firm voices, and time out. It has worked so far (four kids past toddlerhood) without spanking or other physical discipline. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soyrizo Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Erin, Good parenting of an active, into everything toddler is hands on, supervisory based, and done with realistic knowledge of age and developmental stages. He is going to need you to follow him around, redirect and organize his environment; with or without "pops". Good parenting at this age and stage is active. It's often tedious, boring and infuriating. Cognitively inderstanding "no" does not mean he'll have the maturity or impulse control to obey. You can't punish children into maturity. You can't spank them into the next stage of development. Often what we do at this stage is simply what fills the time until they mature out of it. At this stage, the get off your but directions found on my site are all that's needed. Adding a "pop" to it won't accelerate the learning and it often means "popping" an awful lot (which I think is a poor atmosphere. Popping should be - if present at all - relatively rare.) What wonderful advice, I wish I had read and understood that with my first two. It was very much trial and error, poor kids. :lol: I've found toddlers don't really understand "pops" as a discipline method, they're having a great time and along comes mad Mama with a "pop," and now they are sad. What I did discover, though, is if I am overwhelmed and frustrated to the point of "popping," it's better for everyone involved if I take a Mama time-out, even if that means putting an unhappy kid in a Pack-n-Play for a few minutes while I take a breather. Good luck! The toddler years are so much fun but so challenging! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela H in Texas Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) Erin, You can still do Godly Tomatoes just without the spanking :) It's the same idea and works THE EXACT SAME. Spanking does NOT end behaviors ANY faster than not spanking. It is the DISCIPLINE that matters not whether you hit your kid or not. Anyway, so you keep him close by. You structure your day and his. You structure the environment reasonably. Those two things will fix a LOT of behavior. Then you guide him through the day and redirect at the soonest time possible. And understanding what he's REALLY doing is important also. Children have such a small amount of life experience. They really do NOT know 100% that when you drop the food it'll hit the floor. And spaghetti hits the floor differently than potatoes which is another experiment. You have a pretty good idea how each sounds and feels and looks but he doesn't! He's learning. Sometimes that experience is worth the trouble he'll get into! And sometimes it's a security thing, testing limits, etc. He really isn't trying to tick you off when he messes with the outlets AGAIN. And he certainly isn't trying to kill himself. He simply wants to know if he'll get the same reaction as last time (and the 14 times before that). And he's proud of himself when he can get you to respond and he's HAPPY and secure that it worked again. It isn't defiance like so many parents think. It's simply LEARNING. So if you can think of it developmentally, it can drive you a little less crazy. Spanking doesn't change these things (did you see the thread about the 2.5yo getting spanked a couple times every time he's put to bed or to nap?). They HAVE to learn and except for a few situations of abuse or a very sensitive child, spanking rarely works more quickly than other methods would. So you start with just basic setting up the situation for success. You guide him. And you redirect him. And you can do this for just about anything. I've "blanket trained" children even. I've taught kids to stay in the playroom rather than crossing over into the kitchen. I've kept kids out of the street. I've kept a pleasant, quiet, safe, learning classroom of toddlers. I agreed with much of what I read on the Godly Tomatoes thing and the Pearls book. I think having standards is GREAT (and something too many families lack). But a good parent can most certainly accomplish it without most punishment and definitely without hitting. ETA: Other people said all this much more concisely....I probably should have just copied and pasted and said I AGREE Edited July 1, 2009 by 2J5M9K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockermom Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I would set up a living/ play area that has chairs/ couches for you, some toys, maybe a very small child sized table, and low shelves with toys. Mostly empty space, so he can climb (table, low shelf, furniture), but is safe. Make a main space for him that is safe. Something I really like is the Michael Olaf Montessori catalog. It's a catalog, which means they are selling things, but they have a beautiful description of parenting and Montessori philosophy. http://www.michaelolaf.com/JCcontents.html I love Montessori for the toddler years. This is a vague description of how we've set things up. We still have some impulse issues (I'd be worried if we didn't), but setting things up so that he has his things at his level has worked out wonderfully at our home. I wish I could truly set up a Montessori home, but that's not gonna happen. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgm Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Joanne, ! Can you give me a practical thing for toy/food throwing, though? quote] Not Joanne, but what worked for us on toy throwing was to allow it, but designate which toys could be thrown and where. We'd redirect w/short explanation if the wrong place or object was chosen. We'd get in the game too, throwing bean bags and balls and blocks and such into a laundry hamper or dropping them off the couch, high chair, or into the bath water to see what happens or just to play catch and roll. A variety of objects is fun for outside. Pretty soon it gets obvious as to whether the throwing is play or attention getting or anger. If they want to throw food, they are past done or attention getting. Do arrange sensory play in the day though, so they can experience all sorts of textures and rearranging a variety of objects. Sandbox, finger painting, yarn painting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammyla Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 :iagree: Toddlers are tiring, but they're worth the time and training. Erin, Good parenting of an active, into everything toddler is hands on, supervisory based, and done with realistic knowledge of age and developmental stages. He is going to need you to follow him around, redirect and organize his environment; with or without "pops". Good parenting at this age and stage is active. It's often tedious, boring and infuriating. Cognitively inderstanding "no" does not mean he'll have the maturity or impulse control to obey. You can't punish children into maturity. You can't spank them into the next stage of development. Often what we do at this stage is simply what fills the time until they mature out of it. At this stage, the get off your but directions found on my site are all that's needed. Adding a "pop" to it won't accelerate the learning and it often means "popping" an awful lot (which I think is a poor atmosphere. Popping should be - if present at all - relatively rare.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) Teaching a toddler is a ton of work. You've read Raising Godly Tomatoes. She's right about spending that close time with the child all day long. I'm not so sure the "pops" so much good (after trying them out!) but the staying right on top of the little guy is what seems to work. You just can't take any breaks! Like yesterday, a friend of mine told her 3yo son not to take his food into the play area at McDonalds or he wouldn't be able to play in the play area for the rest of our time there. (Which was a waaaay too strict punishment, being that we had met up there specifically for the kids to play for a couple of hours. Was she really going to have the 3 yo sit next to us while all the others played for all that time??) Well, he ran off with some food into the play area. She brought him back to the table and said, "You're done. No more playing. Sit here." But didn't enforce it. He snuck back into the play area at least 8 more times. He'd play for a minute or two before she'd notice and then get him back out. So, what I'm saying, is that you need to come up with the consequence or punishment or whatever, make it a short and reasonable consequence, and then ENFORCE it. My friend ought to have said, "Don't take food into the play area, or you'll have to sit with me for 3 minutes." Then she should have taken him out of the play area when he took food into it, and put him on her lap or by her side for 3 minutes, then let him go. After all that rambling, I'm just trying to say that you'll have to be diligent and observant and following through to the LETTER on what you tell him. That's called consistency and it's HARD to do. (Oooo. I wanted to say, "Good luck!" but maybe I shouldn't!! There's a thread about that going on now....) ETA: If the first consequence didn't work, then you can ramp it up a little. If you take food into the play area, you'll sit with me longer, or no more food. But just a blanket, "you can't play AT ALL" and then lack of enforcement just sets a parent up for failure next time. Her little son knows he can just do what he wants all day and she'll randomly stop him, but there are no set rules. Edited July 1, 2009 by Garga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phathui5 Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Non-popper here. For throwing toys, I have them pick up the toys with me. Throwing food, I go "Oh, you're done" and put them down from the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musicianmom Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Not a lot of advice from me, just a funny story concerning re-directing kids and telling them what they can throw. When my oldest was a toddler, she was in a major throwing stage. Every time I would tell her "Don't throw ______. What CAN you throw?" She knew the answer and would say "Ball." So then we went to my in-laws' house for a visit. My MIL has a beautifully decorated home. On her coffee table was an elongated bowl filled with -- you guessed it -- glass balls. My dd, before I could stop her, grabbed one of the balls, yelled excitedly "Ball! Throw!" and shattered it on the tile floor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 For me it was just a question of constant redirection. Calvin was no problem at that age but Hobbes had that constant curiosity. I just kept explaining and kept redirecting until he grew out of it. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer in MI Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 Not a lot of advice from me, just a funny story concerning re-directing kids and telling them what they can throw. When my oldest was a toddler, she was in a major throwing stage. Every time I would tell her "Don't throw ______. What CAN you throw?" She knew the answer and would say "Ball." This was exactly what I was going to say. When he throws something, have something nearby that he CAN throw - a ball or soft toy. Say, "We don't throw that toy, we throw balls!" and hand him the ball. I've seen it happen so many times where moms/dads lose patience with kids at such young ages. Their relationship becomes almost adversarial. At 17 months - they're just testing boundaries. Laugh at them. Joke with them. There's plenty of time for adversarial - just wait until they're teenagers!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 (edited) I think smacking a 17 month old baby is totally out of the question and would assume the vast majority of people would agree - including people who do spank older kids. So we have other options with these little guys. I had a play pen (actually, for a while I had two set up) that I could put a child into when he was a bit out of control. It was right in the living area of the house, so this didn't isolate him from me - just from the ability to get in trouble. I can't remember when my kids starting being able to climb out of it, but even when they could, it was still a real diversion. I know there was one day when my boys were about that age when they went into the play pens OVER AND OVER for hours. One would throw a toy and I would pick him up and say, "No throwing toys" and put him in the play pen for 5 or 10 minutes. A few minutes later, the other would do the same. It was endless, and it was almost like a fun game for them. I found confinement was my best option. To me, it helps to have a plan. Kids can be so infuriating and it's much easier to be calm and loving when you have a firm plan. Every infraction results in time in a play pen. If he's getting into things that are unsafe for him, you might need to reevaluate your child proofing. Make it so that he CAN'T get into the unsafe things. You might still have the occasional gallon of corn oil joyously poured on the floor (BTDT) but that's just a pain - not dangerous. Edited July 1, 2009 by Danestress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannqn Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 We have a wild toddler who is much like you described...into everything, climber, etc. He doesn't throw food, though, just does everything else. Early on, I realized that we could not remove literally everything from his reach. We just don't have the ability to put every item we own, every school supply, on the ceiling. (He started climbing around 12/13 months). So, we've had to go more with the watch and discipline route rather than the childproof route. Baby gates? He'd just climb them....really. We use time outs and have since he was about 12/13 months old. We have a corner that is used for time out. The kids sit facing the corner. We don't require the little one to be perfectly in the corner and he usually turns a bit so he can look at us and cry. It does get his attention and we always explain to him, in very simple terms, what he did wrong (ie. No kicking the dog). We also make him clean his messes. He used to sit/stand in front of the DVDs and remove probably 20 of them from the shelves. He didn't like having to pick them up. We'd sit with him, hold a space open on the shelf, and direct him to pick that one up, put it there, pick that one up, put it there. He hated it. He cried about it. He did it. He no longer does. Now that he's 28 months old, he can actually help pick up and knows where things go, without very much direction. He's still a handful. Still gets told not to do things very often. Still spends time in the corner. But we see that he's learning and figuring it out. Right now, we are dealing with hitting, kicking, and being too rough overall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 We also try not to say "no" to our children. When redirecting, we say, "That's not for you." It works very well so that they don't turn around and say "No!" back to you all the time as soon as they can! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunshine State Sue Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I know folks who like 1-2-3 (I think there is a video as well as a book) 1-2-3 magic : effective discipline for children 2-12 by Thomas Whelan This was helpful to me, but at an older age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekarl2 Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 1-2-3 magic : effective discipline for children 2-12 by Thomas Whelan This was helpful to me, but at an older age. Yeah, it's the age thing that's hard. My dd is 3.5 and she's easy to discipline. BUT, she speaks well and is a natural pleaser. I use 1-2-3 with her NO PROBLEM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 We've never spanked, but many times I was tested. I tried to stay one step ahead, follow them, and redirect. Throwing food to me means they are no longer hungry and I took the food away. "It seems like you're ready for something else now". Constant supervision is exhausting, but that was my modus operandi, and continues to be as I babysit my sister's tot. She has never spanked and I would never spank him. I am extremely creative. lol Yeah right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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