Theological question...I guess (CC)

[PineFarmMom]

Dh has a pastor friend of an evangelical outreach-type church who told him that a woman had started going to his church and had accepted Christ. She began coming to Bible studies regularly. At the last Bible study, she admitted that her dh is not a Christian and is furious that she goes to church and goes to these studies. This pastor told her to go home and not come back because she needs to submit to her husband. I'm doing my very best to keep this neutral on my part. With the outset of this question, I am not going to tell dh's response nor my own. I want opinions on whether this line of thinking is Biblical. I want scripture both ways. What do you think?

 

For reference, this church that this man pastors is a male-oriented outreach church, specializing in a specific type of man with a specific type of interest. Women and families are the gravy...if they reach them while trying to reach that specific man, then that's great. You know how there are churches for bikers and the like? It's kind of like that, just not bikers in this case. I just wanted to give that background info.

[Rosie_0801]

I think the pastor has treated this like a simplistic issue which it might not be. It may appear that hubby is anti-Christian, but perhaps it is something more mundane like the time of day she's going out. Maybe hubby likes to come home and spend the evening with his wife. Most guys would be fine with their missus going out one night a week, but if "regularly" means she's heading out a few time, I think he's got a point. For all we know, she's spent years griping at him for going to the pub on the way home and leaving her waiting, and she's decided to do the same. Perhaps a church offering a Sunday morning fellowship type group would satisfy both of them, or if she timed her church going activities to coincide with his out of the house hobbies.

 

Rosie

[Ellie]

Some will agree with the pastor and quote all the scriptures pertaining to wives submitting to their husbands.

 

However, there are others who will say that each person is responsible for his own salvation before the Lord; IOW, if this woman is saved, she should be going to church. ITA with them

 

And yet, if her dh is "furious," that might be something the two of them need to work out, KWIM?

 

And my personal recommendation to her would be to find another church.

[tvaleri]

In Acts 5:29 Peter declared:

 

"Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey G-d rather than men!"

 

If this gal has repented and placed her trust in Christ, she does not need to be a Lone Ranger Christian. Especially with a non-believing hubby. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and the hat :)

 

She should submit to him, but that's only so long as he doesn't ask her to do anything that violates G-d's word. I'm with Ellie; she needs a supportive body of believers.

 

JMHO,

Teresa

[FO4UR]

I am seeing red flags all over that church!

 

#1 - to only "target" one group of people.....I understand having a chaplain minister to an unreached group...but a church turning folks away (directly or indirectly) b/c they aren't in *that group* is a red flag!

 

#2 - If a pastor is going to take a hard and fast line on submission (which I think that pastor has a dim understanding of it judging from that conversation...), then he needs to take personally and seriously the job of evangelizing her hubby. I tend to doubt that there is any plan on that.

 

#3 - For a woman to tell a pastor her dh is "furious" over her going to church instantly concerns me. This sounds like a possible abuse situation.

[PineFarmMom]

I am seeing red flags all over that church!

 

 

#2 - If a pastor is going to take a hard and fast line on submission (which I think that pastor has a dim understanding of it judging from that conversation...), then he needs to take personally and seriously the job of evangelizing her hubby. I tend to doubt that there is any plan on that.

 

 

 

This is where my dh went with the conversation, trying to explain those scriptures. They wound up having a disagreement and had to agree to leave the discussion behind. This is an outgrowth of a denomination that tends to stand hard on that particular doctrine. It's their "pet" doctrine, if you will.

 

As for the questions about the marriage, this pastor's main goal was to share with dh his "Biblical" way of handling a situation at his church. From my understanding, there was no other reason involved in the dh's displeasure than him being anti-Christian. The studies were once a week.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Scripture is clear on a few points here...

 

First, salvation is individual.

Second, obey God rather than man.

Third, don't forsake the gathering of believers.

Fourth, an unbelieving mate may be aided to truth by the conduct and faith of the believer.

 

The woman can still submit to a great deal. A lot of women must jump through a good many hoops in order to follow God. God appreciates the effort.

[wildflower]

:iagree: it';s a tough call anyway your look at it.

 

 

I could not find the verse I was looking for, with the whole house needing a piece of mommy....

I thought it was Corinthians, but I did find Ephesians- 5:22

 

I doubt this 'pastor' is working from true scripture, just his own bias (sorry if this offends), just my 2 cents.

 

Hope this woman finds a place where she is allowed to worship- she'll be in my prayers, as well as you, since this must be a tough place for you and your family right now also.

Robyn

[PineFarmMom]

In Acts 5:29 Peter declared:

 

"Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey G-d rather than men!"

 

If this gal has repented and placed her trust in Christ, she does not need to be a Lone Ranger Christian. Especially with a non-believing hubby. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and the hat :)

 

She should submit to him, but that's only so long as he doesn't ask her to do anything that violates G-d's word. I'm with Ellie; she needs a supportive body of believers.

 

JMHO,

Teresa

 

Thanks! I agree with what you're saying. I felt that this line of thinking is something akin to making your husband a god in your life...that sounds extreme, but if you put his opinion over God's, then what else is it?

 

It's the same to me as the Church in the USSR: They chose not to submit to their government when it became unBiblical to do so. They then started having secret meetings. There were pastors who stood and said they refused to agree to run their churches in the manner that the communist leaders told them to do it. God's Word says for us to submit to those in authority over us, and our govts fall in that category. So if someone tells me to do something (even my dh) and it opposes God's Word, then I'm not to follow that direction.

[LizzyBee]

Two thoughts:

 

The word furious makes me wonder if the husband is abusive, and if he is, that should have been addressed by the pastor.

 

Second, if the husband is not abusive, but likes to have family time on the weekends, I think it's okay for women in this situation to find a Bible Study to attend during the week while the husband is at work. I don't think the assembling of ourselves together HAS to occur on Sunday or in a church building.

[Orthodox6]

Granted, I am not a Protestant. But I used to be, and I never, ever heard of any minister or pastor who would advise a person to place a human being ahead of Christ. That is about as "Biblical" as one can get.

 

Dh has a pastor friend of an evangelical outreach-type church who told him that a woman had started going to his church and had accepted Christ. She began coming to Bible studies regularly. At the last Bible study, she admitted that her dh is not a Christian and is furious that she goes to church and goes to these studies. This pastor told her to go home and not come back because she needs to submit to her husband. I'm doing my very best to keep this neutral on my part. With the outset of this question, I am not going to tell dh's response nor my own. I want opinions on whether this line of thinking is Biblical. I want scripture both ways. What do you think?

 

For reference, this church that this man pastors is a male-oriented outreach church, specializing in a specific type of man with a specific type of interest. Women and families are the gravy...if they reach them while trying to reach that specific man, then that's great. You know how there are churches for bikers and the like? It's kind of like that, just not bikers in this case. I just wanted to give that background info.

[Blueridge]

The pastor may have advised her to leave and go home to show her husband that she does indeed have respect for him as the head of their household, and that she is not putting another man in authority over her instead of her own husband. It would be a rare thing for a husband to be converted because of his SuperChristian wife. On the contrary, it would make him more angry. She must convince him of her changed heart with her gentle and quiet spirit.

[TravelingChris]

I agree with the posters who think there may be abusiveness going on. We had a similar situation occuring when we were overseas. THe husband wasn't a believer but was very controlling over the wife. She was young, had a few kids, was away from family, and it wasn't a good situation. I believe it finally came down to her having to fly home with the kids. She was a very sweet person but he was older, and very possessive. When a cousin came to visit, that is when she persuaded her to leave. We were suspecting problems like this and had encouraged her to talk to family, maybe go visit family, etc. I am normally a person who wants marriages to stay together but not abusive ones. I don't consider those legitimate marriages since there is no partnership but rather an agressor and a victim or sometimes two aggressors.

 

I want to emphasis that I am not equating non-believers with abusiveness. I just think that someone being furious over a spouse's once a week activity that isn't immoral or unsafe is a warning sign of abuse regardless if they are furious about a Bible study, a book club, or a ladies coffee night. Now I think that if he knows this church is geared towards men, he may be rightly upset that she isn't going to a women's bible study or at least a less male oriented one. However, if she goes to another style Bible study and still he is upset, then the same warning applies. Note that Gov. Sanford wnet down the wrong path supposedly by meeting this woman in Argentina at some Christian conference or other Christian event. That is why I said if his issue is with men, she should go to a women's study.

[Julie in CA]

The pastor may have advised her to leave and go home to show her husband that she does indeed have respect for him as the head of their household, and that she is not putting another man in authority over her instead of her own husband. It would be a rare thing for a husband to be converted because of his SuperChristian wife. On the contrary, it would make him more angry. She must convince him of her changed heart with her gentle and quiet spirit.

This would be my perspective on the situation, though I see that I appear to be in the minority on this one.

[LoriM]

The statistic I heard recently was that if the father/husband were led to Christ, the family would follow at a much higher rate than if the mother/wife were led to Christ. For some pastors, they believe so strongly in that statistic that they put the entire focus of their ministry on male converts.

 

But as a child from a family where my father NEVER attended church, and my mother took us each and every Sunday, and supported our activities in youth groups, youth choir, discipleship classes, etc., I am grateful that statistics don't always apply. :) Not only that, but after 42 years of marriage, my father started attending my mother's church, and has joined--and goes to Sunday School and Bible study as well as Sunday morning services. He's turned into a pretty great guy.

 

So, anyway, I think a devout wife can be an outstanding example of Christian faith to a nonbelieving (or slightly-believing, in my dad's case) spouse. Most of our witness is not what we say, but what we do. In this particular woman's case, I think she'll be better served to find a local women's ministry in a more traditional church where she can find activities for the kids and Bible studies for her.

[AuntieM]

The statistic I heard recently was that if the father/husband were led to Christ, the family would follow at a much higher rate than if the mother/wife were led to Christ. For some pastors, they believe so strongly in that statistic that they put the entire focus of their ministry on male converts.

 

But as a child from a family where my father NEVER attended church, and my mother took us each and every Sunday, and supported our activities in youth groups, youth choir, discipleship classes, etc., I am grateful that statistics don't always apply. :) Not only that, but after 42 years of marriage, my father started attending my mother's church, and has joined--and goes to Sunday School and Bible study as well as Sunday morning services. He's turned into a pretty great guy.

 

So, anyway, I think a devout wife can be an outstanding example of Christian faith to a nonbelieving (or slightly-believing, in my dad's case) spouse. Most of our witness is not what we say, but what we do. In this particular woman's case, I think she'll be better served to find a local women's ministry in a more traditional church where she can find activities for the kids and Bible studies for her.

 

What a wonderful testimony, thanks for sharing.

 

As far as targeting men exclusively, hmmm, can you imagine if Lois or Eunice had been denied the teachings of Christ? Even in that male-oriented world, the faithfulness of devoted women produced Timothy. That's something to think about.

 

I would agree that the pastor could direct her to a women's Bible study, and actively help her to find one. How about even a little one-on-one discipleship from his own wife? But to just "kick her out," that seems so harsh. I'd have to hear a few more details to have a fully formed opinion, though (not that I want the details, I'm just saying it's hard to judge well one way or the other without knowing all the circumstances).

 

I hope she is welcomed into a loving fellowship elsewhere in a place she can be nurtured by believers and live by the Spirit in a sweet way that will gently show evidence to her husband of Christ's work in her life.