Momof2kids Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) Delete now. Thanks for your opinions. None of the involved are homeschooling except for me so no one would probably see this. But I want to make sure. Thanks again everyone. Edited June 18, 2009 by Momof2kids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I say nothing. I'll also say stories like these make me despair of our world. Did you witness this or hear about it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof2kids Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) delete Edited June 18, 2009 by Momof2kids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisa in Jax Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 The fight was not the owner's fault, whether he fired the philanderer or not. The responsibility for the fight falls solely to the two women who fought. Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 What is the responsibility of the Owner of facility where both kids take classes? Nothing. I can't begin to fathom why he would be responsible at all :confused:. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof2kids Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) delete Edited June 18, 2009 by Momof2kids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Mom #2 Wait, you are Mom #2? Or you heard about it fr. Mom #2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgm Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 You'll need to consult a lawyer that is familiar with your state and local laws. I would guess the shopkeeper's responsibility is to keep any child he is supervising safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueridge Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Wait, you are Mom #2? Or you heard about it fr. Mom #2? :lurk5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4kiddies Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I don't think he would have any responsibility. This is a really pitiful situation however. I feel VERY sorry for the daughters of the women involved. They must be mortified over the behavior of their mothers and I would think it would damage their relationship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof2kids Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 I don't think he would have any responsibility. This is a really pitiful situation however. I feel VERY sorry for the daughters of the women involved. They must be mortified over the behavior of their mothers and I would think it would damage their relationship. The daughters have a 3 year age gap and there is no "relationship". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4kiddies Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I don't mean with each other I mean mother--daughter relationship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof2kids Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) delete Edited June 18, 2009 by Momof2kids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4kiddies Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Because the only victims here are the daughters. Even if Mom #1 threw the first punch, Mom #2 allowed it to escalate into a fist-fight that had to be broken up by other mothers. Now if this was a one time sucker punch that is one thing but a fist fight is more than that.....just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof2kids Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) delete Edited June 18, 2009 by Momof2kids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4kiddies Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Wow,in no way am I "blaming the victim". I told you in my opinion the victims are the daughters. There is a difference between a "fist fight" and defending yourself. If you had used different wording than fist fight initially maybe I would feel differently. I just read the other responses and didn't realize at first that you were mom #2. Sorry you were attacked and that I'm not giving you the answer you wanted to hear. I'm stepping out of this discussion now.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 It started as a sucker punch. The police said Mom #2 had every right to defend herself by fighting back. Mom #1 was in a rage (2 witnesses saw it) and making verbal accusations against Mom #2. Mom #2 was calm and sucker punched. Mom #2 defended herself (instinct and reflexes) and then they fought until the 2 witnesses (who also gave police statements) broke it up and mom #2 called police since she was the VICTIM of an ASSAULT. It was not pretty and no one is happy about this. Wow now I know what they mean by "blaming the victim". :grouphug: There is nothing wrong with her defending herself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 It started as a sucker punch. The police said Mom #2 had every right to defend herself by fighting back. Mom #1 was in a rage (2 witnesses saw it) and making verbal accusations against Mom #2. Mom #2 was calm and sucker punched. Mom #2 defended herself (instinct and reflexes) and then they fought until the 2 witnesses (who also gave police statements) broke it up and mom #2 called police since she was the VICTIM of an ASSAULT. It was not pretty and no one is happy about this. Wow now I know what they mean by "blaming the victim". I'm confused. Are you Mom #2 or are you friends with Mom #2? If you aren't Mom #2, were you a witness? Those who say the shop owner has responsibility, what is their reasoning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) The business owner had nothing to do with the fight. Why would he/she be responsible? I'm sorry, but can you say trashy?? My Goodness!!!! I am a pretty vocal person but fist fighting left my list of "things to do" at about age 9. It is obvious from your posts that either you ARE mom #2 or she is your friend. I am sure our responses do sound "snotty" but I absolutely can not imagine anyone I know getting into a fist fight much less at a place where my kids take classes. I realize mom #2 was hit first, but had she done NOTHING, she would have come out the much bigger person. I will be the first to admit, it would be HARD to hold my temper if someone hit me...however, with my kids present or with kids around, I would absolutely NOT sink to that level and hit her back. Mom #1 should probably have gone to jail for assault. Edited June 18, 2009 by Tree House Academy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Mom #2 could have walked away. or run away. There was no requirement that she engage in "counter-ruffian" behaviour. If I were a child or teen witnessing this, I probably would have lost all respect for both women, permanently. I then would have grown up believing that toddler behaviour was appropriate for adults. The property owner has no liability or responsibility for this event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Mom #2 could have walked away. or run away. There was no requirement that she engage in "counter-ruffian" behaviour. If I were a child or teen witnessing this, I probably would have lost all respect for both women, permanently. I then would have grown up believing that toddler behaviour was appropriate for adults. The property owner has no liability or responsibility for this event. OK, hypothetically, what if the mom ran away and was chased and tackled and hit again? Then can she defend herself? Or what if it was a man attacking the mom? Could she defend herself physically then without being a ruffian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tree House Academy Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 OK, hypothetically, what if the mom ran away and was chased and tackled and hit again? Then can she defend herself? Or what if it was a man attacking the mom? Could she defend herself physically then without being a ruffian? I would assume that if mom #1 just walked away, then others who were witnessing this would step in and attempt to mediate. There were several witnesses according to the OP. It was NOT a man hitting a woman. If it was, likely the woman wouldn't have been standing after the first punch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katemary63 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Wow now I know what they mean by "blaming the victim". I don't see this as "blaming the victim" at all IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof2kids Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) delete Edited June 18, 2009 by Momof2kids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katemary63 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I'm sorry, but can you say trashy?? My Goodness!!!! I am a pretty vocal person but fist fighting left my list of "things to do" at about age 9. It is obvious from your posts that either you ARE mom #2 or she is your friend. I am sure our responses do sound "snotty" but I absolutely can not imagine anyone I know getting into a fist fight much less at a place where my kids take classes. I realize mom #2 was hit first, but had she done NOTHING, she would have come out the much bigger person. I will be the first to admit, it would be HARD to hold my temper if someone hit me...however, with my kids present or with kids around, I would absolutely NOT sink to that level and hit her back. I would never be is a situation where an argument escalated to a fist fight. I would have walked away long before. Unless you are talking about Mom#1 simply walking right up to Mom#2 and punching her without warning. Other then that, Mom#2 should have just left the area and ignored anything said by someone in a "rage." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof2kids Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) delete Edited June 18, 2009 by Momof2kids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Good grief. The owner bears no responsibility. What supposedly mature, responsible adults do in their own time is not any of his concern, business or responsibility. As for the Moms...#1 needs to have her butt in jail. #2 I can't comment on. There is a difference btwn defending one's self and engaging in a brawl, and I have no idea as to what happened, since I wasn't there. Would have been nice, however, if the bystanders had stepped in immediately after the sucker punch, instead of waiting for retaliation. This crap just blows my mind. Kind of thing you expect to see outside a highschool, not at a child's class, btwn parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katemary63 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Mom #2 could have walked away. or run away. There was no requirement that she engage in "counter-ruffian" behaviour. If I were a child or teen witnessing this, I probably would have lost all respect for both women, permanently. I then would have grown up believing that toddler behaviour was appropriate for adults. The property owner has no liability or responsibility for this event. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bkpan Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 OK I am mom #2. I am smack in the middle of all of this and I trying to stay calm and not "demand" them to "do something". I know this is a personal issue for me but I didn't fess up at first to being mom #2 because I am trying to be objective but I guess I have to fess up becasue there is a back story to tell. Other people's reasoning for business owner to take responsibility: This woman and her friend (who is having the affair with the worker guy who left) have been constant trouble for over 1 year. Disruptions, messyness, rude behavior, poorly behaved children, lies, deception, slander against the business owner (he knows) etc. People have brought up their bad behavior around there on a consistent basis and business owner has been dealing with it as best he could and made some changes, had meeting with them, etc. The owner is well aware of the jealousy that these 2 women because of my daughter and has encouraged me along the way to hang tough and it will be ok. There have been 2 other physcial altercations on the part of her friend who is having the affair. First she pushed my daughter (who is excelling and the target of jealousy) 1 year ago. I wish I had filed a police report on her then but there were no witnesses. It was my dd's word against her's. Later her daughter "accidently" hit someone while doing the sport and many people have reason to believe it was malicious but you can't prove that because it was in context of a sport and accidents can happen Now with a firm assault and confession, police report, etc. many people think enough is enough with these 2 moms. Over the course of the last year what would the owner's responsility be in general? Had the owner been doing the right thing all along? I am really just looking for an objetive view because I don't want to just act emotionally. I do not think that I would be looking at the business owner as having any responsibility prior to the event - as you noted, there does not seem to be many provable incidents. HOWEVER, if I considered continuing my dds sport at that facility, I would absolutely expect the owner to bar mom #1 and her dd from the facility permanently. HTH Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacy in NJ Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 facility populated with with this type of low life (sorry). If I were another parent that had a child in this class/group, I would be running permanently in the other direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I do not think that I would be looking at the business owner as having any responsibility prior to the event - as you noted, there does not seem to be many provable incidents. HOWEVER, if I considered continuing my dds sport at that facility, I would absolutely expect the owner to bar mom #1 and her dd from the facility permanently. HTH Kim The daughter is not responsible for the mother. I feel bad for her enough as it is, that her mother is obviously unstable enough to physically attack someone. Honestly though, it wouldn't surprise me if both parties to the fight were barred. Isn't that the usual result to physical fighting, that EVERYONE gets kicked out? Solves the problem for everyone else, not having to deal with that kind of running emotional tension in the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I'm just wondering. I think he has no responsibility in this but some people are saying he does. These people who say that are close to the situation so I was looking for an objective (not a snotty) opinion. No, dear, I don't think he has any responsibility at all. I'm sorry this happened to you, but leave the owner out of it, for goodness' sake. Many people are just litigious, like the customer who sued MacDonald's because the *hot coffee* burned him. And maybe the people who say the owner has responsibility are just trying to get justice for you. Nevertheless, leave the owner out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof2kids Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) delete Edited June 18, 2009 by Momof2kids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 OK I am mom #2. I am smack in the middle of all of this and I trying to stay calm and not "demand" them to "do something". I know this is a personal issue for me but I didn't fess up at first to being mom #2 because I am trying to be objective but I guess I have to fess up becasue there is a back story to tell. Other people's reasoning for business owner to take responsibility: This woman and her friend (who is having the affair with the worker guy who left) have been constant trouble for over 1 year. Disruptions, messyness, rude behavior, poorly behaved children, lies, deception, slander against the business owner (he knows) etc. People have brought up their bad behavior around there on a consistent basis and business owner has been dealing with it as best he could and made some changes, had meeting with them, etc. The owner is well aware of the jealousy that these 2 women because of my daughter and has encouraged me along the way to hang tough and it will be ok. There have been 2 other physcial altercations on the part of her friend who is having the affair. First she pushed my daughter (who is excelling and the target of jealousy) 1 year ago. I wish I had filed a police report on her then but there were no witnesses. It was my dd's word against her's. Later her daughter "accidently" hit someone while doing the sport and many people have reason to believe it was malicious but you can't prove that because it was in context of a sport and accidents can happen Now with a firm assault and confession, police report, etc. many people think enough is enough with the mom who hit and her friend. Over the course of the last year what would the owner's responsility be in general? Had the owner been doing the right thing all along? I am really just looking for an objetive view because I don't want to just act emotionally. I think Mom #1 should be banned from the facility/premises now that there is a police report. That would be the owner's responsibility now. Should he have banned her 6 months ago? Maybe, but hindsight is 20/20 and all that, and I don't think that has a legal leg to stand on. I don't think you were wrong in defending yourself. It's possible that you could've handled it differently (walked away before it escalated, not hit her back, etc), but that might not have been the right thing to do, either. Sometimes bullies need to suffer the consequences of their actions. If someone hit me, I'd be shocked, and honestly, I'd most likely fight back. I don't know how much I'd hit (it would depend on the adrenaline and the situation, I'm sure), but I would probably go into Judo mode and try to take her down and restrain her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 This woman and her group loiter and hang out and cause non-violent disruptions outside on a regular basis. Heckling, rude comments, lies, etc. This has been for over a year. Mom #2 and everyone else ignored it for over 1 year. But then when Mom #1 hit Mom #2, Mom #2 (and others) see them as schoolyard bullies who need to be stood up to and not run away from. I'm probably the lone dissenter here, but it looks to me like the owner had been negligent over the past year, and he had ample reason to ditch Mom #1. Whether he had been legally negligent, I don't know. But certainly, this mother should not have been allowed to stay. Mom #2 and the other witnesses had plenty enough reason to give the owner an ultimatum: She goes or we go. The whole situation should not have been allowed to escalate to this level. Hindsight. I would walk away from the whole mess. I'm so sorry this happened. It makes me feel sick. Really, really sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I think Mom #1 should be banned from the facility/premises now that there is a police report. That would be the owner's responsibility now. Should he have banned her 6 months ago? Maybe, but hindsight is 20/20 and all that, and I don't think that has a legal leg to stand on. I don't think you were wrong in defending yourself. It's possible that you could've handled it differently (walked away before it escalated, not hit her back, etc), but that might not have been the right thing to do, either. Sometimes bullies need to suffer the consequences of their actions. If someone hit me, I'd be shocked, and honestly, I'd most likely fight back. I don't know how much I'd hit (it would depend on the adrenaline and the situation, I'm sure), but I would probably go into Judo mode and try to take her down and restrain her. That's what I was trying to say! We must have been typing at the same time.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) I'm truly sorry that I did not know until right now that you are one of the people involved. Had I known that, I never would have posted to the thread because my viewpoint (which I still hold) would be quite offensive to you. I really wish that this had been noted in the first place. As to people who have "hopped" me for advocating non-violence. . . I have been on the receiving end of serious violence. (no details forthcoming) I always managed to escape without injuring my attacker. So experience teaches me that I do not have to "fight back." This is not cowardice. This woman and her group loiter and hang out and cause non-violent disruptions outside on a regular basis. Heckling, rude comments, lies, etc. This has been for over a year. Mom #2 and everyone else ignored it for over 1 year. But then when Mom #1 hit Mom #2, Mom #2 (and others) see them as schoolyard bullies who need to be stood up to and not run away from. Edited June 18, 2009 by Orthodox6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueridge Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Goodness. This does sound like a mess. Are there any other facilities that you can take your dd to? Sometimes situations don't ever improve. Mom #1 may have issues far beyond you, and nothing you can do will change her or her behavior. I imagine you have a lot of pent-up anger toward her and the whole situation, and you need to find some peace with it so you can move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 (edited) Wow, what a mess. I have no idea how I would react to being punched like that. Is it a natural reaction to strike back? How much force does it take for such instinct to take over, I wonder? Of course, I might also have rolled into a ball on the floor screaming. Edited June 18, 2009 by LibraryLover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof2kids Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 I'm truly sorry that I did not know until right now that you are one of the people involved. Had I known that, I never would have posted to the thread because my viewpoint (which I still hold) would be quite offensive to you. I really wish that this had been noted in the first place. As to people who have "hopped" me for advocating non-violence. . . I have been on the receiving end of serious violence. (no details forthcoming) I always managed to escape without injuring my attacker. So experience teaches me that I do not have to "fight back." This is not cowardice. I didn't mean to intentionally decieve anyone on the boards or set anyone up. I am just trying to be obejctive but I see that I have to give more details since people are asking. I still do want your opinion. Thanks for giving it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof2kids Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 I'm probably the lone dissenter here, but it looks to me like the owner had been negligent over the past year, and he had ample reason to ditch Mom #1. Whether he had been legally negligent, I don't know. But certainly, this mother should not have been allowed to stay. Mom #2 and the other witnesses had plenty enough reason to give the owner an ultimatum: She goes or we go. The whole situation should not have been allowed to escalate to this level. Hindsight. I would walk away from the whole mess. I'm so sorry this happened. It makes me feel sick. Really, really sorry. This is what people who know more about the situation are telling me. They say that I've been "excusing" the owners inaction or poor action that has been taken over the past year when dealing with these 2 families and now it has gone too far. He is aware of everything and trying to decide what to do. These 2 women Mom #1 and her friend with the affair have pretty much destroyed the goodwill, commaradie, trust, relationships, training, etc. over the past year. Overall, the business has been affected negatively because of it. The question for the owner is what to do now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidsHappen Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 The owner has no responsiblity and I can't even imagine a situation in which someone would think that he did. He has no legal right or ability to control the behavior of other adults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 The owner has no responsiblity and I can't even imagine a situation in which someone would think that he did. He has no legal right or ability to control the behavior of other adults. But he was not obligated to allow the other family to continue to be a part of the facility. My point is that he is culpable, whether or not he is legally responsible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momof2kids Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 But he was not obligated to allow the other family to continue to be a part of the facility. My point is that he is culpable, whether or not he is legally responsible. This is my dilema. How far do I push it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 The owner has no responsiblity and I can't even imagine a situation in which someone would think that he did. He has no legal right or ability to control the behavior of other adults. Might there be some responsibility that management maintain a safe facility? If there is know harassment taking place that is endangering patrons, wouldn't the owner have some obligation? Where are the lawyers here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Hindsight is 20-20 -- there are many situations where behaviour such as this never escalates, but we don't read about them on the news. I don't think he's really responsible, although if he continued to allow her after an assault he would be. It might be morally superior to walk away, but it's difficult to think calmly, clearly, and rationally when someone's just unexpectedly punched you. I'd almost certainly have hit back as well, although in hindsight I would probably have thought I shouldn't have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secular_mom Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I would expect the owner to ban Mom #1 from the facilities. I don't think the owner is liable for the attack though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 This is my dilema. How far do I push it? Only a lawyer can help you decide that. I, personally, would not have the energy to go that route. But if you feel compelled to know more about how far to push it, and want some clarity about whether it is the responsible thing to do, pursuing legal action, have an initial talk with a lawyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secular_mom Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Might there be some responsibility that management maintain a safe facility? If there is know harassment taking place that is endangering patrons, wouldn't the owner have some obligation? Where are the lawyers here? That would have to be legally provable harassment though. If he just banned someone for things that couldn't be proven, he might find himself being sued by the nutso/troublemaker in question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole M Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I would expect the owner to ban Mom #1 from the facilities. I don't think the owner is liable for the attack though. This is what I would imagine would be what a lawyer would tell you. But this is way out of my depth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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