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Conversation with DS


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Imagine that you are in your bathroom brushing you teeth when you hear:

 

DS2: No.

DS7: It's ok.

DS2: No. No.

DS7: I'm not trying to take the ball.

DS2: No!

DS7: (some incoherent mumble)

DS2: No! No!!!!

DS2: Screaming.

DS2: Screaming louder.

 

So you put down your toothbrush and walk into the living room to find DS7 holding his hand, claw-shaped, over DS2's head like he is going to grab it.

 

When you talk to your DS7 about it, this is the conversation.

 

Mom: Did you hear your brother telling you "no"?

DS7: Yes.

Mom: What do you think he means when he says "no"?

DS7: No.

Mom: But what does that mean? What does it mean when someone tells you "no" or "stop" or is screaming for you to stop?

DS7: To stop.

Mom: So why didn't you stop what you were doing when he told you "no"? Why didn't you stop when he started screaming, and screaming even louder?

DS7: I don't know.

Mom: Do you think you would like it if someone kept bugging you after you told them to stop doing it?

DS7: No.

Mom: How would you feel if you told someone to stop and they didn't listen?

DS7: Mad.

Mom: Then why do you think it is ok for you to keep bothering your brother after he's told you no and starts screaming?

DS7: I don't know.

Mom: What did you think when he started screaming?

DS7: I guess I didn't think.

 

 

Argh! If this was the first time we've had this conversation, I might not be so annoyed. But this is probably the 537th time we've talked to him about respecting other people's personal space, other people's "no" or "stop".

 

When DS2 was an infant, he used to put his face literally an inch from the baby's face and yell at him, "Hi, I'm your brother..." DS2 is only now beginning to allow his older brother anywhere near him.

 

For year's, we've explained to DS7 to please stop touching us, picking at blemishes/bumps on our arms, sitting pressing up against us, etc. without at least asking permission. He finally started asking if he could rub our arms but hasn't learned to ask before sitting practically on top of us...it's hard to type on your laptop when you have a kid wedged behind your arm and shoulder, kwim.

 

When he's playing with other kids, he either follows his sister's lead or goes off by himself. If his sister is there and it is someone we know who is pretty tolerant, he usually does ok. I've tried introducing him to other boys his age, and he always complains about something he finds wrong with the other kid...he acts too young, he's too loud, he only played things I don't like, etc. He sometimes gets really sad that he doesn't have any friends. It's hard to make friends when you go off by yourself, annoy the other kids, or find something at fault with everyone!

 

It gets really old! We've been very strict with him. When we punish him for something, he tends to be very hard on himself and suggest 100 times the punishment. We've talked and explained and talked until we are blue in the face about what appropriate behavior is. I don't know how to get him past this. It's drives me batty every time I have to rescue my youngest from him. Who wants to here their 2 year old screaming because big brother doesn't have the sense to stop doing whatever he is doing that is causing the screaming?

 

I bought Conversation with Character and I have the library tracking down Raise Your Child's Social IQ but I'm skeptical that these will work as we've been counseling him on these annoying behaviors for probably 3 years now.

 

Thanks for listening/reading.

 

P.S. Funny thing is...I've mentioned his social skills issues to a couple of friends who think he's fine. They only see him for short periods of time, occasionally, and only when his sister is there to be the go-between...and, of course, I don't share with them every little fault that DS claims their kids have.

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Have you ever heard about "love languages"? Your story reminded me of a story in the kid love language book. A mom realizes that all these annoying touchy, picking at things her son does is really because he craves physical affection. His main love language was touch.

 

She made a huge effort to hug him, rub his shoulders, tousle his hair, the dad play wrestled with him exc. every chance they got. Once he was getting all of this touch he was able to act on their previous teaching about how to properly interact with others, including siblings who needed less touch.

 

I have no idea if this is your kid, it just reminded me of that story.

 

While I was reading that the above is what I was thinking too. My ds5 is the same way, and as long as we touch him enough he does fine when he is with others. It does get VERY old if touch is not your thing (trust me, it is not my thing either), but it does help him so much. He is happier when we allow him to hang on us too which again, I have personal space issues :001_smile:

 

:grouphug: and hopefully tomorrow will be a better day!

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I do agree with the effort to be physical.

 

However, I think the issue is that you are stopping short in your discipline (teaching/guidance). You are making it clear he's in the wrong. I enjoyed reading your conversation. You did it very well. But you stopped before encouraging him to come up with a couple ideas he could do instead and evaluating those so he could choose an appropriate one. To add another book (you might get the activity book also), try Raising a Thinking Child by Myrna Shure. It will help you teach him some vocabulary but more importantly, help you teach him this last step so he can handle things appropriately rather than mess up again.

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My daughter is similarly clueless and has sensory integration issues (she is sensory seeking).

 

She is pretty good about responding to someone's NO, but she has had to be minutely and REPEATEDLY counseled about people's personal space. She still has a tendency to start crowding me when she's walking, walking very close or just in front of me, at an angle, so that I am slowly cut off. This is maddening!

 

So, I feel for you. The frustration level with a sensory seeking child is quite high, especially if you're an introvert like me.

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Oh, JoAnn. You've just described DAILY conversations with my kids with one exception. I'm usually talking through my gritted teeth. I assign lines. Writing lines works in our house.

I've noticed that my boys don't ever, ever exhibit this type of behavior in groups of kids or around other people. They save that special behavior just for me.

My dh, who is 1 of 7, 5 of them boys, says this is just how brothers act. I still try to stop it though. Boys may treat brothers this way but not in my house!

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DS2: No.

DS7: It's ok.

DS2: No. No.

DS7: I'm not trying to take the ball.

DS2: No!

DS7: (some incoherent mumble)

DS2: No! No!!!!

DS2: Screaming.

DS2: Screaming louder.

 

So you put down your toothbrush and walk into the living room to find DS7 holding his hand, claw-shaped, over DS2's head like he is going to grab it.

 

When you talk to your DS7 about it, this is the conversation.

 

Mom: Did you hear your brother telling you "no"?

DS7: Yes.

Mom: What do you think he means when he says "no"?

DS7: No.

Mom: But what does that mean? What does it mean when someone tells you "no" or "stop" or is screaming for you to stop?

DS7: To stop.

Mom: So why didn't you stop what you were doing when he told you "no"? Why didn't you stop when he started screaming, and screaming even louder?

DS7: I don't know.

Mom: Do you think you would like it if someone kept bugging you after you told them to stop doing it?

DS7: No.

Mom: How would you feel if you told someone to stop and they didn't listen?

DS7: Mad.

Mom: Then why do you think it is ok for you to keep bothering your brother after he's told you no and starts screaming?

DS7: I don't know.

Mom: What did you think when he started screaming?

DS7: I guess I didn't think.

 

 

 

 

Wow. I'm certain I've had this conversation before. Several times. F-R-U-S-T-R-A-T-I-N-G. :grouphug:

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When he was 2 1/2, he was evaluated by an OT (along with a SLP and pediatric whatever he was that identified kids with special needs). They diagnosed him with severe language delays, slightly undersensitive, and family issues.

 

The language delays contributed to speech, cognitive, academic, and social delays. When I discovered that he was lactose intolerance (the GI guy said that test was negative), he overcame all of those delays within 2 years. He's now way ahead on everything except these social issues that keep coming up.

 

The slightly undersensitive diagnosis resulted in a "have him play hard" suggestion. He's overcome a lot of those issues as well. He does get lots of cuddles and we do allow him to sit up against us a lot. We drew the line at him trying to pick any bumps, pimples, and scabs off our arms though. Besides, it hurt!

 

The family issues was the pediatric whatever he was deciding that my son's inability to talk and rage issues (caused by frustration) was due to family problems. He was quite obnoxious, especially when he demanded that I pay attention to him rather than stop my son from biting his sister. I put the man in his place and refuse to go back to him even though he's the only guy in his field in our city.

 

He keeps reminding me of mild aspergers in his social issues. He's one of those kids who will talk until he's blue in the face, explaining a math problem or giving you a word-by-word retelling of what he just read in a science encyclopedia, even if it is obvious that you are not listening.

 

Whatever it is, I don't know if it would help to know. It seems that dianosis is best for kids who need an IEP at school.

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When he was 2 1/2, he was evaluated by an OT (along with a SLP and pediatric whatever he was that identified kids with special needs). They diagnosed him with severe language delays, slightly undersensitive, and family issues.

 

The language delays contributed to speech, cognitive, academic, and social delays. When I discovered that he was lactose intolerance (the GI guy said that test was negative), he overcame all of those delays within 2 years. He's now way ahead on everything except these social issues that keep coming up.

 

The slightly undersensitive diagnosis resulted in a "have him play hard" suggestion. He's overcome a lot of those issues as well. He does get lots of cuddles and we do allow him to sit up against us a lot. We drew the line at him trying to pick any bumps, pimples, and scabs off our arms though. Besides, it hurt!

 

The family issues was the pediatric whatever he was deciding that my son's inability to talk and rage issues (caused by frustration) was due to family problems. He was quite obnoxious, especially when he demanded that I pay attention to him rather than stop my son from biting his sister. I put the man in his place and refuse to go back to him even though he's the only guy in his field in our city.

 

He keeps reminding me of mild aspergers in his social issues. He's one of those kids who will talk until he's blue in the face, explaining a math problem or giving you a word-by-word retelling of what he just read in a science encyclopedia, even if it is obvious that you are not listening.

 

Whatever it is, I don't know if it would help to know. It seems that dianosis is best for kids who need an IEP at school.

 

As its been explained to me, the difference between knowing a diagnosis and not is like knowing if your child is hearing impaired or not. Finding out your child is hearing impaired doesn't make everything all better, or the hearing impairment suddenly vanish of course, but suddenly you know what the playing field is. You have an idea of what your child needs, and how to go about providing that to him and for him. Way more to it than an IEP at school. If there is a diagnosis, there's stuff that could possibly be done with OT, PT...I honestly don't know what all might be recommended to you and be available for you and your son, but I would really encourage you to find out. If he is having sensory issues, then its not something that is a discipline issue per say, and he truly may not know why he does it.

 

Wishing you all the best! :grouphug::grouphug:

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To add another book (you might get the activity book also), try Raising a Thinking Child by Myrna Shure. It will help you teach him some vocabulary but more importantly, help you teach him this last step so he can handle things appropriately rather than mess up again.

 

:iagree:

<begin paste>

Mom: Then why do you think it is ok for you to keep bothering your brother after he's told you no and starts screaming?

DS7: I don't know.

Mom: What did you think when he started screaming?

DS7: I guess I didn't think.

 

<end paste>

 

Raising a thinking child would be different at this point. Instead of asking the child why he thinks it is okay to keep bothering, it asks "What could you do differently". It seems like a small change, but it puts the ball in kiddo's court. The book is a quick read, too.

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