Venomous creatures in our garage...

[RegGuheert]

A couple of weeks ago MomsintheGarden killed a 30-inch-long copperhead snake in the garage. Last night when we returned from an evening out, she noticed a black widow spider, also in the garage. Here's a not-so-great picture of the spider:

 

 

I should have taken a picture of her last night when she was out on her web. Today she was hiding where I could not get a clear photograph.

 

I've seen copperheads around here all my life, but I've never seen a black widow spider before. I've also never known anyone who was bitten by either creature. Does anyone here have any personal anecdotes that give an idea of how dangerous these two critters can be?

[secular_mom]

When we had cable, I watched venom ER. It was very interesting, to learn/see the effects venom has on the body. Black widows can really harm small children. We had an infestation of them in our last home. But there were also LOTS of crickets and other creepy crawlies (in the garage and around our patio- NOT in the house, though the spiders did wander into the house at times). If there is an abundant food source, it's hard to get rid of the black widows.

 

I had a close encounter with a cotton mouth snake in our garage last week. It was ON my FEET! But it didn't bite me.

 

Good luck with the creatures.

[Julie in CA]

I've seen copperheads around here all my life, but I've never seen a black widow spider before. I've also never known anyone who was bitten by either creature. Does anyone here have any personal anecdotes that give an idea of how dangerous these two critters can be?

Here in California, black widows are a dime a dozen. We expect to see them in the garage, in the garden, and yes, occasionally in the house.

I've known several people who've been bitten by black widows. It hurts a bit (or a lot, depending on your personal pain threshold, lol!), and causes a nasty welt. Occasionally you might suffer from a headache or run a fever for a day or two. I don't know anyone who's needed medical care or intervention for a black widow bite.

[HeatherLynn]

I'm in the medical field, so I may not be the best person to ask about personal experiences with venomous critters.

 

Our dog was killed by a cotton-mouth bite in April. Actually, multiple bites on her muzzle when she was swimming in the pond. I hate snakes.

[runninmommy]

I, too, have had tons of black widows in our barn and around our property. Like any spider or venomous creature, it depends on how much venom is pumped into the bite. Even though black widow spiders are incredibly venomous, they rarely inject enough to kill. People react differently. As long as the victim goes to the ER quickly, they should be fine. The ones around our property are not extremely aggressive but we have gotten rid of them anyway. We have children and lost of animals and just don't want to risk having them around. We have seen and killed around 20 now.

 

I have a few pictures and a video up on my blog if you want to see them.

 

http://herdingducks.blogspot.com/2009/05/busy-and-dangerous-weekend.html

 

scroll down a little bit to get to the black widow pic.'s.

[lollie010]

I just about fainted one day when there was a black widow on my ds's tricycle--right there by the peddle. I through a big fit and the neighbor came over and told me not to stress and actually held the thing. CRAZY. There were little egg everywhere. I am still sick over it and that was about 3 years ago.

 

Laurel T.

[5KidzRUs]

There were plenty of black widows where I grew up - my uncle is the only one I know of that was ever bit - He got bit on the nose - left a slight crater; like a chicken pock crater.

Here in Georgia we get plenty of snakes - We just relocated a large copperhead a few weeks ago - they are not aggressive usually. It was in front of our front porch - my son and dog walked over it and didn't see it at first!

We always look at these are great SCIENCE experiences and jump online to classify the critters.

OT, but we found a rare/endangered Indigo Snake (we left it alone - they are protected) in our yard a few weeks ago too - that was so exciting!

[Mommyof4ks]

Copperhead bites should make it to the ER immediately, but black widows it really depends on how the person reacts. I am not a nurse or doctor, but when I brought this subject up with the ped at my dd's first ever appt. (we have scorpions, spiders, snakes ewww) he said that poisons snakes are not bites to mess with but other things are not a huge deal unless the child has a reaction to a critter.

[Tree House Academy]

Oh yuck! When I lived in GA, we had a black widow spider on my son's STROLLER that had been stored in the trunk of my car! I freaked out and made my husband drive to where I was (an hour away) and trade cars with me...even after he killed the spider. Then, we had a guy come and spray for spiders and a black widow the size of a quarter (pregnant???? or just HUGE) came waddling out from the front porch as she died. YUCK YUCK YUCK!

 

Copperheads, now that isn't even amusing. I can handle spiders...even black widows, but DO NOT put me within 100 yards of a copperhead. Your wife is definitely braver than I am! 2 1/2 feet long! OH MY GOD!

 

Medically, if my kids were bitten by a black widow, I would treat it as an emergency and go to the doc or er...just because kids are smaller and more sensitive to the venom. A poison snake warrants and ambulance ride IMO!!! And prayer. OMG lots of prayer!

Edited June 13, 2009 by Tree House Academy

[elegantlion]

Must be nasty creature week. My dh just killed a poisonous snake by our shed this morning.

[Blessedfamily]

Oh yuck! ....

Medically, if my kids were bitten by a black widow, I would treat it as an emergency and go to the doc or er...just because kids are smaller and more sensitive to the venom. A poison snake warrants and ambulance ride IMO!!! And prayer. OMG lots of prayer!

 

I knew it! I've been waiting for your post. :bigear:

 

The two biggest scaredy cats on the board (YOU & ME) couldn't resist peeking into this thread.

[Impish]

Make that THREE, cause I'm joining in! I'm doing the squirmy in the chair, icky icky poo poo dance! Ewwwwwwwwww! Spiders and snakes and venom, oh my! Blech! Ewww! Ewwww! Ewwww!

 

May I just say that thank GOD I live in Canada where there isn't as many of these killya critters? Rattle snakes, yup. But, far as I know (and I know there's going to be ppl just dying to re-educate me now) there aren't many poisonous snakes or spiders up here...our cold tends to kill 'em off. Most of 'em are on the coast, not here in the Praries. Spiders I mean. Snakes you have a hope of seeing. Spiders just lurk in the shadows...dropping down on to its unaware victim...*shudder*

 

*doing the heebie jeebie icky poo dance, brushing off imgainary spiders, and dancing away from imaginary snakes*

 

Course, Reg...you could always feed 'em to your talkin microwave.

 

Just a thought. ;)

[Sunshyne]

I LOVE spiders! I think they're fascinating to watch. My husband hates them. The boys always come to get me when they find them and we observe them and talk about them. I put a Black Widow in a jar once just to watch her. It was neat, even though the kids thought I was crazy. :D

 

 

I don't much like snakes because they can be hard to see, but I have held a few non-poisonous ones.

 

 

I don't think I'd be too thrilled to find a copperhead in my garage...

[Heather in Savannah]

I'm doing that icky, yucky, screaming dance too! I am terrified of snakes, and we live right by a pond, so lots of the poisonous kinds...Water Mocassin's, and Copperheads. My husband spotted a couple, but couldn't get up the courage to kill them....I've always emptied the mouse traps because he is so squeemish, but I draw the line at poisonous snakes...for that I need a big, strong man with a shovel!

Heather

[Kathleen in VA]

We get copperheads and black widows here, too. I had a copperhead in my garage last year - it was in there a couple of weeks before ds22 killed it. When he was about 12 we had a copperhead in our backyard. Our neighbor's dog was visiting (she thought our property was hers as well) and when she smelled the copperhead under a log my son was playing around she started barking wildly. My son pushed the log with his foot and out came the snake. The dog attacked it and got bit several times on her face during the altercation. She died the next morning.:( I'm very thankful that she attacked the snake, though - I think she may have kept my son from getting bitten.

 

Two or three summers ago a young girl in our church got bitten by a copperhead. Her parents took her to the ER right away and even then they weren't sure she was going to make it. Turns out the ER nurses were not being consistent when measuring her leg swelling - one was measuring in centimeters and the other in inches so when they measured in inches it seemed her swelling was going down. Just be sure everyone's on the same page and being careful with your care if you end up in the ER. That goes for any and all reasons for being there - not just snake bites.;)

[Laurie4b]

Copperhead bites should make it to the ER immediately, but black widows it really depends on how the person reacts. I am not a nurse or doctor, but when I brought this subject up with the ped at my dd's first ever appt. (we have scorpions, spiders, snakes ewww) he said that poisons snakes are not bites to mess with but other things are not a huge deal unless the child has a reaction to a critter.

 

The only thing they do for copperhead bites is to give you antibiotics and pain medication. You're really better off going to your own doctor and not doing the whole ER mess. And do not put ice on a copperhead bite. The ice concentrates the venom which dissolves muscle tissue and if it dissipates it does more damage. (There are lots of copperheads around here and bites are not uncommon.)

[Laurie4b]

Lots of copperhead and black widow stories here:

 

Copperheads:

 

Not scared by noise (we killed one that crawled within about 5 ft of dh and boys. Dh was using the chain saw at the time!

 

Copperheads seem to be most aggressive in Sept around here--they are on the move looking for hibernating spots. I've had one rear up to strike me (in the drive at dusk) ; dh had one strike his pants leg at night (didn't go through the material). OTOH, one time ds came in to tell me that there was a copperhead in the garden. I went out to look and didn't see a thing and told him there wasn't a snake there. He poked with a stick at the area I was standing 3 ft. from and I saw the "ground" move in front of my eyes. Their camo is perfect on dried leaves. I asked him how on earth he had seen it. He had stepped on it in bare feet!

 

What that has taught me is that I will not be able to see them unless they move. I watch very carefully ahead of me for movement, and especially in the evening or night, stick to the walks and drive where their camo doesn't work well. The bites are not particularly dangerous as venomous snakes go. You are not given anti-venom unless you are having a bad (allergic?) reaction. The standard treatment is antibiotics and pain killer. Don't put ice on the wound as the venom dissolves tissue and you don't want to concentrate it.

 

Black widows: saw ds at age 18 mo. playing with something in the hall--it was a black widow (Same ds as stepped on copperhead years later, LOL!) . He did have some kind of insect bite on the finger--though he never showed symptoms. Whether it was a mosquito bite, a bite where the spider didn't envenomate, or prayer, I don't know. Poison control told me to go to the ER if he developed symptoms (cramping, etc.) and did not send me to the ER right away (I thought they would).

 

One night, in the middle of the night, dh felt something on his face and brushed it off. Again, he felt it on his face, and brushed it off again. It turned out that it was a black widow. In general, they are not aggressive like brown recluses are. However, I kill them whenever I see them. We've got plenty of other spiders around...

Edited June 13, 2009 by Laurie4b

[Blessedfamily]

lots of copperhead and black widow stories here:

 

Copperheads:

 

Not scared by noise (we killed one that crawled within about 5 ft of dh and boys. Dh was using the chain saw at the time!

 

Copperheads seem to be most aggressive in sept around here--they are on the move looking for hibernating spots. I've had one rear up to strike me (in the drive at dusk) ; dh had one strike his pants leg at night (didn't go through the material). Otoh, one time ds came in to tell me that there was a copperhead in the garden. I went out to look and didn't see a thing and told him there wasn't a snake there. He poked with a stick at the area i was standing 3 ft. From and i saw the "ground" move in front of my eyes. Their camo is perfect on dried leaves. I asked him how on earth he had seen it. He had stepped on it in bare feet!

 

What that has taught me is that i will not be able to see them unless they move. I watch very carefully ahead of me for movement, and especially in the evening or night, stick to the walks and drive where their camo doesn't work well. The bites are not particularly dangerous as venomous snakes go. You are not given anti-venom unless you are having a bad (allergic?) reaction. The standard treatment is antibiotics and pain killer. Don't put ice on the wound as the venom dissolves tissue and you don't want to concentrate it.

 

Black widows: Saw ds at age 18 mo. Playing with something in the hall--it was a black widow (same ds as stepped on copperhead years later, lol!) . He did have some kind of insect bite on the finger--though he never showed symptoms. Whether it was a mosquito bite, a bite where the spider didn't envenomate, or prayer, i don't know. Poison control told me to go to the er if he developed symptoms (cramping, etc.) and did not send me to the er right away (i thought they would).

 

One night, in the middle of the night, dh felt something on his face and brushed it off. Again, he felt it on his face, and brushed it off again. It turned out that it was a black widow. In general, they are not aggressive like brown recluses are. However, i kill them whenever i see them. We've got plenty of other spiders around...

Please tell me you live nowhere near the commonwealth of Virginia. Please!

[teamturner]

One night, in the middle of the night, dh felt something on his face and brushed it off. Again, he felt it on his face, and brushed it off again. It turned out that it was a black widow.

 

I am not going to be able to sleep tonight now!

 

Last year my dh went to get the mail and there was a black widown attached to the mail. Usually I send one of the kids to get the mail or I get it while in the car and I would have held it over my lap and set it down in the seat next to me. Shudder... We put it in a glass jar and watched it for a while but then had to kill it before I could go to sleep. I'm not usually skiddish about spiders but the venemous ones or big ones just a little bit.

[Michelle O. in MO]

Last year my friend's husband was bit by a copperhead. They live in the boonies and he comes across them regularly. However, this particular time he didn't see it and reached down to pull some weeds and felt a prick on his hand. When he pulled his hand up there was a very big snake hanging from it. He ended up cutting off the snake's head and then proceeded to sit on the porch with his wife trying to decide if he should drive the 1 1/2 hours one-way to the hospital. He called an EMT friend who advised him to get to the ER right away. I guess the snake was big enough and had pumped quite a bit of venom into his hand to warrant this decision. Long story shortened a bit....he made it to the hospital, but barely. He woke up a day and a half later in ICU. They had pumped 9 bags of anti-venom into his body. The bill? oh yeah, $38,000.

[I talk to the trees]

Now, Reg, was that absolutely necessary? I mean, the story would be enough to get a board full of women squirming, but the photo? That's just too much. Go to your room, and only come out when you can play nicely with your fellow boardies. :D

 

In answer to your question: My parents live in VA (Rke.) My mother is 59, an avid hiker, lived all of her life in that area, and had never seen a black widow until one turned up in the bed of her pickup this past spring. I grew up in VA, and never saw one. I think this may just be a bad year for them. I know of only one person in my family who was bitten by a snake: my father, and he was in Vietnam at the time. Luckily, it wasn't one of the deadly ones.

 

-Robin

Edited June 14, 2009 by flutistmom
Spelling!

[Carol in Cal.]

...living in the semi-boondocks, went outside to grab his newspaper one morning. He shook a couple of spiders off of it as he went into the house, and didn't think anything of it. He didn't think that any of them had gotten onto him, let alone that he had been bitten.

 

But he was. He developed flu symptoms that were very severe. When they didn't let up at all after a whole week, and he was feeling weaker and weaker, he remembered the spiders and went to the doctor. She gave him a shot of some kind of antidote, and he was completely recovered in about half a day. He was amazed that they could bite him without him realizing it, that the impact lingered so much, and that he got better so fast. The doctor felt that his rapid recovery was clear proof that he had had a black widow spider bite.

 

After that, with two young children at home, even though his wife was an avid organic gardener (had a small business doing organic garden design and maintenance), they decided that they had better go ahead and insecticide bomb their property. It was too frightening to imagine their children getting bitten.

[Blessedfamily]

Now, Reg, was that absolutely necessary? I mean, the story would be enough to get a board full of women squirming, but the photo? That's just too much. Go to your room, and only come out when you can play nicely with your fellow boardies. :D

 

In answer to your question: My parents live in VA (Rke.) My mother is 59, an avid hiker, lived all of her life in that area, and had never seen a black widow until one turned up in the bed of her pickup this past spring. I grew up in VA, and never saw one. I think this may just be a bad year for them. I know of only one person in my family who was biten by a snake: my father, and he was in Vietnam at the time. Luckily, it wasn't one of the deadly ones.

 

-Robin

 

Thank. You.

 

See? That's what y'all are supposed to post. Now I can sleep tonight.

[myfatherslily]

I found 3 black widows at one time in my kids sandbox while they were playing. Yeah, we didn't go back there again.

 

We've also seen rattlesnakes and water moccasins not far from our house.

 

Thankfully no one's even been bitten! My husband likes to chop the rattlesnakes' heads off with a hoe.

[RegGuheert]

Sort of. You guys have given me serious heebie jeebies! I need to be more careful what I ask for, huh?

 

I'm more of a squeamish type Dad. Too many snake encounters as a child, I guess. MomsintheGarden is the killing machine here. Anything that threatens a vegetable or a family member gets it! :eek:

 

Still, it is good to understand the the level of danger involved. To be quite frank, both creatures sound worse than I had thought.

 

One thing that I did not see discussed is anaphylactic shock. I saw an excellent documentary on this about 10 years ago which scared me to death! IIRC, in that story, they indicated that in some people a bee sting could cause the immune system to become ultra defensive to the point that a second sting could put the system into overdrive, causing anaphylactic shock. Apparently only a large dose of adrenaline can save the individual's life at that point.

 

Apparently copperheads and black widows can be very dangerous without a repeat, but I'm wondering if anaphylactic shock could be an issue for someone who has been bitten in the past.

 

Finally, does anyone have web links to resources you trust for proper aid for copperhead or black widow bites or anaphylactic shock.

 

Thanks again and sorry for the subject of this thread. Trust me, I understand how you feel!

[Impish]

As far as ana goes, an epi pen on hand is the course of action.

[RegGuheert]

 

As far as ana goes, an epi pen on hand is the course of action.

As in epinephrine? Can you please recommend a product that we should buy and where?

[Blessedfamily]

Don't you need a presciption for an epi pen?

[Impish]

Don't you need a presciption for an epi pen?

Yes you do, at least here in Canada, I assume its the same in the States. But as far as treating ana, its really the only sure treatment. Other recommendations, if its not full blown ana ie slight swelling, still able to breathe is to administer antihistamine ie Benydril (sp) immediately, and contact medical personel.

 

That's what we were taught in St John's Ambulance Brigade anyways.

[elise1mds]

Yeah you have to have a script for an EpiPen, and they usually won't prescribe them unless you've been shown to have an anaphylactic reaction to something else. Usually... I'm not going to say they WON'T, because I'm sooo not a doctor.

 

I've been bitten by a brown recluse before, and it welted up a bit, but when I went to the doctor they told me that they can't do anything about it unless it starts to pus and ooze (TMI, I know, sorry), and it went away within another week or so. I get the very rare black widow around here but nothing major. I don't really worry that much about spiders, and my husband REALLY doesn't worry since he grew up in Australia, and I don't even want to get into the snakes and spiders they have there. Any Aussies wanna weigh in?? I haven't seen a copperhead since I was 12 or so, but I know they're around. I worry more about water moccasins since we have lots of ponds around here and they're very aggressive.

[Blessedfamily]

... I worry more about water moccasins since we have lots of ponds around here and they're very aggressive.

 

We had water moccasins in SE VA. THEY ARE AGRESSIVE INDEED.

[Mommy2BeautifulGirls]

My mom has an EpiPen. She gets a SEVERE reaction from bee stings. I think her throat started to close once when she was little. I've only seen her stung once, by a very small bee, on the inside of her finger when she picked up our dog. We took her in right away and by the time we left the doctor, her whole body was one giant hive.

 

If you do not have an EpiPen, ALWAYS keep Benedryl on hand and take it as soon as possible for any severe bug bites. (I do not know much about snakes, though.) I have those little single-dose ones for the kids that I keep in my purse. I've actually had to give them to my oldest for really bad mosquito bites before. She seems to be allergic to everything like my mother is.

[KidsHappen]

A spider is guarateed to make every male I know go running and screaming from the room. Women in the family are the designated spider killers. My brother was once bitten by a brown recluse though. He was very young at the time and it was pretty bad.

 

I have had to remove snakes from the house as well but never anything poisinous.

[lollie010]

We just moved to a new community and the very nice older gentleman from across the street came to welcome us. After the customary introductions he proceeded to warn me about watching the kiddos very closely 'cause there is a rattlesnake problem around here. UMMM....welcome to the neighborhood.

[RegGuheert]

A spider is guarateed to make every male I know go running and screaming from the room.

It's not every male in my family. Mainly just me. The other five males seem to be more well adjusted! :D

 

The biggest concern is that one of our sons LOVES bugs. He plays with every bug he finds, which results in frequency stings and bites. It doesn't seem to dissuade him at all! I don't think I will need an epi pen for him!

[RegGuheert]

We had water moccasins in SE VA. THEY ARE AGRESSIVE INDEED.

When I was growing up, perhaps 10 yo, I was once walking around the farm where I lived. I went to leap over a very small spring-fed stream on our property. Just before I leapt, I noticed a green ribbon in the water and I pulled back. GOOD THING! That snake shot vertically straight up out of the water with its mouth wide open, fangs bared! It must have gone more than a foot into the air. Clearly it was attempting to strike me leaping across the stream. I was convinced it was a water moccasin, but everyone around here insists there are none. I'm not convinced, as I can't imagine most snakes acting so aggressively.

 

I still have a clear image of that snake coming out of the water over 30 years later...

[Colleen in NS]

Oh yuck! When I lived in GA, we had a black widow spider on my son's STROLLER that had been stored in the trunk of my car! I freaked out and made my husband drive to where I was (an hour away) and trade cars with me...even after he killed the spider. Then, we had a guy come and spray for spiders and a black widow the size of a quarter (pregnant???? or just HUGE) came waddling out from the front porch as she died. YUCK YUCK YUCK!

 

Copperheads, now that isn't even amusing. I can handle spiders...even black widows, but DO NOT put me within 100 yards of a copperhead. Your wife is definitely braver than I am! 2 1/2 feet long! OH MY GOD!

 

Why I read these threads, I don't know, cuz I am terrified of snakes and spiders, but your post has me :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:!!!

[Colleen in NS]

Now I just read the whole thread and am shuddering and laughing....I did get bitten by a brown recluse one time, in NH of all places. I had a rash all over my body for a couple of weeks and was also very feverish for a day or two.

 

As in epinephrine? Can you please recommend a product that we should buy and where?

 

You can get an Epi-Pen or a Twin-Ject (which contains two doses of epinephrine, and here, it's the same price as a one dose Epi-Pen).

 

Don't you need a presciption for an epi pen?

 

Not always. I was told by my local Wal-Mart pharmacy that I can buy Epi-Pens OTC, but there was some kind of restriction on that - maybe one at a time, or if no Rx then no insurance coverage? I can't remember. I just know I could buy them without an Rx if I wanted to. My kids have food allergies, so we keep all this stuff on hand. Also, I tell them to watch out for bees, because we don't know if they are allergic to those, as well.

[Joaly]

A have a friend whose son was bitten by an adolescent copperhead (lots of venom) last night. They immediately took him to the ER where he was observed all night, but no anti-venom and no antibiotics were given. He will be on crutches for a week to keep from putting weight on the ankle that was bitten.