Jen+4dc Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 My 1st grade ds (will be 7 next week) has been a "reluctant" reader. I finally found a way to motivate him (he gets to watch Star Wars Episode 1 when he can read any Level 3 reader I give him) I know, it's terrible, but a month ago he wouldn't read I see Sam without crying and now he's fairly fluent with Level 2's. So, if a bribe works......;). I know he wants to read now but he often mixes words up. For example the sentence says: as written: "Where is the dog?" asks Mom. "The dog went to the barn" says Ned. My son will read aloud: "Where is the dog?" asked Mom. "He went to the barn" said Ned. OR as written: "Clint grins and says, "I like the way you..." he reads aloud: "Clint grins and said "like the way you slap" He often misses the word "I", just skips right over it. OR as written: "Shall we put a wet rag on that welt?" asks Brent. ds reads aloud: "We shall put a wet rag on that welt?" asked Brent. (This is the most common mistake he makes, reversing the order of words). OR He'll say "lille" for "little." I have had his vision evaluated and it's better than mine (even with my glasses)! Is this just a normal developmental thing? Should I be worried? I usually correct him and we just move on, but it gets frustrating at times for both of us. I'd like to chalk it up to his age, but I don't want to let something slide if there's an underlying problem... Anyone else have a kid like this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momto2 Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 sounds like my DS. i had his vision tested and found out he needs to wear glasses. that improved his reading a little. i have an appointment with a behavioral ophthalmologist in two wks to have a more comprehensive evaluation for problems like tracking or convergence problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen+4dc Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 sounds like my DS. i had his vision tested and found out he needs to wear glasses. that improved his reading a little. i have an appointment with a behavioral ophthalmologist in two wks to have a more comprehensive evaluation for problems like tracking or convergence problems. How old is your ds? Our optometrist says my son's vision is 20/20 and 20/25 and didn't think he needed glasses. Would that rule out tracking or convergence problems? Or, could he have good vision and still track funny? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingersmom Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 He's barely 7 years old. I would cut him some slack. Reading should be fun, not a chore. Visit the library, hang out at the bookstore. Curl up on the couch and read together. You read to him, he reads to you. In the first 2 months my son was homeschooled we read over 100 books!!! We spent hours and hours and hours of me reading to him. Gradually he started reading from books that had caught his fancy and he wanted to read again. You might also look into short stories for "building fluency". We have a book of story cards from http://www.lakeshorelearning.com. This way they can practice reading without facing a whole book or a long chapter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen+4dc Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 Visit the library, hang out at the bookstore. Curl up on the couch and read together. You read to him, he reads to you. We spent hours and hours and hours of me reading to him. Gradually he started reading from books that had caught his fancy and he wanted to read again. You might also look into short stories for "building fluency". We have a book of story cards from www.lakeshorelearning.com. This way they can practice reading without facing a whole book or a long chapter. This is basically what we do. I just wondered if this was a normal developmental thing or if I should be worried. My in-laws are all ps teachers and think I'm ruining my dc by hsing them.:tongue_smilie: So, I tend to get a little hypersensitive sometimes and wanted to make sure I'm not overlooking a problem. He's just a 7 year old boy, after all. But, the reversing of words, anyone out there have experience with that without vision problems?? TIA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Actually, a lot of beginning students do when they're learning, guessing and substituting and reversing, and it's worse when you're reading books, it makes them read faster than they can comfortably read correctly and starts to make them guess. When my daughter started guessing while reading books, I dropped readers and just worked on phonics and spelling. I would focus on phonics and spelling in isolation. I really like Webster's Speller! But, you could also try Blend Phonics. I found when I added in spelling with the phonics for my daughter and my remedial students, that they learned the phonics better and it stuck in the brain better. I had her read spell about one word for every 10 she sounded out. I have tutored dozens of kids like this, nonsense words and Blend Phonics with Webster's Speller usually do the trick. Here's a link to what I do for my remedial students, step by step instructions to using Blend Phonics that teaches the syllables easily, gently, and logically, making a nice lead-in to Webster's Speller, it also has links to nonsense words and my phonics concentration game which makes nonsense words: http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/howtotutor.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skaterbabs Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Dot does that occasionally. ("substituting" words) When she does, I make a point to remind her to LOOK at the word and read the one actually printed on the page. If it's a word she's actually struggling with (as opposed to just mis-reading), I help her sound it out. No stress, no pressure, no worry, just "Hey, that's not 'help'! That's 'hope'!" or whateer the substitution happens to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momto2 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 (edited) Sorry I don’t know how to quote @ jen + 4 dc My ds is 5.5 yr old. I am not pushy and when I see my son read I notice the same issues that you have mentioned. And I can honestly tell you that there is a problem of some sort with him. He would read perfectly well if the font is big and the spacing between words is large. 20/20 vision test does not detect all vision problems. Here is some website for more info www.pavevision.org http://www.covd.org Here is a screening for children http://www.cookvisiontherapy.com/childrens_screening.html and also my ds constantly keeps bumping into things and has a very poor visual coordination.cannot catch a ball even. I also highly recommend blend phonics, word mastery and Webster speller. It helped a lot. Edited June 11, 2009 by momto2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terabith Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Okay......I have an honest question. If a person is reading in context and substitutes a word that means the same or changes the tense slightly, or some such thing, how serious an error IS that? Particularly if they can decode well, as evidenced by reading words in isolation or by asking them to read again? Do you need to ALWAYS correct? That just seems so frustrating to everyone. Does it even really matter? Is it always worth sacrificing fluency for? I mean, I'm not knocking decoding skills and phonics. That's always the first layer. But after that's been achieved, shouldn't you start ALSO start working on fluency and comprehension, even if not in the same session as the decoding? When I'm reading the kids stories, sometimes I change things around. Read the wrong word, etc. If it's a meaning changing issue I self correct immediately, with no loss of fluency. But do all good readers read aloud with fluency and speed and 100% correct decoding, with no reversing of words, etc? I'm pretty sure I'm a good reader.......I scored 36 on the ACT in high school and a 700 on the verbal section of the GRE. I read out loud pretty fluently. But I have separate sessions for my daughter. We read syllables and do ETC, where she has to be correct in her decoding. But when she's reading aloud, I stop her if she's made a significant error or is not super fluent on a passage or if it changes the meaning, but otherwise, I let her go. I try to have the material she reads aloud be "easy" material for her, to build speed and fluency and confidence, but she's not an awesome reader. She does get hung up sometimes, especially on multisyllabic words. She can read them pretty well if they are pre-divided, but struggles a bit with them in regular text. We'll do ETC 4 in the fall. Maybe that will help. And lots and lots of practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yvonne Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Jen, A little OT, but it might encourage your son to read... Has your son seen the Star Wars Visual Dictionary books?! These sure encouraged my boys to put a lot of effort into reading. (And they're great for practicing those phonics skills because of all the "alien" terms.) My boys discovered them at the library and I finally broke down and bought this one for them. They pour over it. It has small paragraphs/sections/captions so, although the words are difficult, a child _can_ get to the end of a short section and be done and feel like he's accomplished something. And they are very high interest for boys, esp.! http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0756622387/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link Just a different sort of idea for approaching the issue! yvonne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 Okay......I have an honest question. If a person is reading in context and substitutes a word that means the same or changes the tense slightly, or some such thing, how serious an error IS that? Particularly if they can decode well, as evidenced by reading words in isolation or by asking them to read again? Do you need to ALWAYS correct? That just seems so frustrating to everyone. Does it even really matter? Is it always worth sacrificing fluency for? I mean, I'm not knocking decoding skills and phonics. That's always the first layer. But after that's been achieved, shouldn't you start ALSO start working on fluency and comprehension, even if not in the same session as the decoding? When I'm reading the kids stories, sometimes I change things around. Read the wrong word, etc. If it's a meaning changing issue I self correct immediately, with no loss of fluency. But do all good readers read aloud with fluency and speed and 100% correct decoding, with no reversing of words, etc? I'm pretty sure I'm a good reader.......I scored 36 on the ACT in high school and a 700 on the verbal section of the GRE. I read out loud pretty fluently. But I have separate sessions for my daughter. We read syllables and do ETC, where she has to be correct in her decoding. But when she's reading aloud, I stop her if she's made a significant error or is not super fluent on a passage or if it changes the meaning, but otherwise, I let her go. I try to have the material she reads aloud be "easy" material for her, to build speed and fluency and confidence, but she's not an awesome reader. She does get hung up sometimes, especially on multisyllabic words. She can read them pretty well if they are pre-divided, but struggles a bit with them in regular text. We'll do ETC 4 in the fall. Maybe that will help. And lots and lots of practice. Well, I'm probably a bit on the paranoid side on the guessing thing because of the terrible problems I've seen with my remedial students. And, there are hundreds of them in every state we've lived in, and it's impacted their lives so much in a negative way that I err on the side of caution with the whole guessing thing. To me, the Dolch sight words are a big no, no questions asked, I've found that about 30 to 40% of students in schools that use them have problems vs. the Catholic schools and 1 public school and most Protestant schools that teach with few sight words were I have not yet found a single problem. (And, I've given hundreds of grade level tests and have been giving them since 1994 to almost every parent I meet. There was 1 student in the Catholic school and 1 student in the public school who I though disproved this--but, when I started talking to their parents more, I found they were both transferred in from schools that taught with sight words and had brought home lists of the Dolch sight words in their early years.) It's probably OK to let a student make a substitution like this occasionally, but I don't personally take that risk. I'm not mean about it, I just point at the missed word and have my students (including my daughter) read it again. My daughter now does this hardly ever anymore--I'm more prone to doing it than her, especially if I'm tired or not paying attention. She'll correct me every time, "Mom, it says a, not the!" She now reads fluently and with expression, and we never did any fluency work, just phonics and spelling. It does take a while, though. There is a lot more to learn in English than a language like Spanish before you can sound out every word fluently. However, to me, the extra time and effort spent on the basics in the early years is worth it--I've seen the alternative, and I don't like it. It ranges from terrible reading skills to not liking to read to liking to read but getting tired when you read at night. (I also ask all the adults I meet about how the learned to read and whether or not they like to read and whether or not reading at night makes them tired.) Most of my remedial students can actually decode fine when they take the time, it's just that the process is not automated. One of the parts of the MWIA is to have them spell the words they miss and then try to read them again--most of them can read between 90 to 100% of the words when they slow down and sound them out, but they guess and get them wrong when reading them at normal speed out of context. (They generally will get them right because of context when reading a book.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momto2 Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 okay i can understand the substitution of words. like instead of a, the or instead of says, said things like that what i don't understand is my ds changes the order of words. like print: "i do not know" reads: " not do i know " then he immediately corrects it himself and reads: "i do not know" to me it feels like he knows he is changing the order, but for some reason cannot help himself. okay is this normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen+4dc Posted June 11, 2009 Author Share Posted June 11, 2009 Sorry I don’t know how to quote @ jen + 4 dc My ds is 5.5 yr old. I am not pushy and when I see my son read I notice the same issues that you have mentioned. And I can honestly tell you that there is a problem of some sort with him. He would read perfectly well if the font is big and the spacing between words is large. 20/20 vision test does not detect all vision problems. Here is some website for more info www.pavevision.org www.covd.org Here is a screening for children http://www.cookvisiontherapy.com/childrens_screening.html and also my ds constantly keeps bumping into things and has a very poor visual coordination.cannot catch a ball even. I also highly recommend blend phonics, word mastery and Webster speller. It helped a lot. Thanks! I don't think this is his problem since he has no issues except with reading, but I'm going to check out these websites just in case! Jen, A little OT, but it might encourage your son to read... Has your son seen the Star Wars Visual Dictionary books?! These sure encouraged my boys to put a lot of effort into reading. (And they're great for practicing those phonics skills because of all the "alien" terms.) My boys discovered them at the library and I finally broke down and bought this one for them. They pour over it. It has small paragraphs/sections/captions so, although the words are difficult, a child _can_ get to the end of a short section and be done and feel like he's accomplished something. And they are very high interest for boys, esp.! http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0756622387/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link Just a different sort of idea for approaching the issue! yvonne Thanks! His birthday is next week.......:D I would focus on phonics and spelling in isolation. I really like Webster's Speller! But, you could also try Blend Phonics. I found when I added in spelling with the phonics for my daughter and my remedial students, that they learned the phonics better and it stuck in the brain better. I had her read spell about one word for every 10 she sounded out. So, do I stop having him read anything? Just do ETC and spelling and some phonic lessons from your website? I have tutored dozens of kids like this, nonsense words and Blend Phonics with Webster's Speller usually do the trick. Here's a link to what I do for my remedial students, step by step instructions to using Blend Phonics that teaches the syllables easily, gently, and logically, making a nice lead-in to Webster's Speller, it also has links to nonsense words and my phonics concentration game which makes nonsense words: http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/howtotutor.html There so much info there. Would you recommend stopping everything I'm currently doing and just doing the spelling and blend phonics? How do I know when he's done reaady for readers again? Is this explained on the website and I just didn't get to it with my quick perusal? Okay, I'm off to research! Thanks for the link!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted June 11, 2009 Share Posted June 11, 2009 There so much info there. Would you recommend stopping everything I'm currently doing and just doing the spelling and blend phonics? How do I know when he's done reaady for readers again? Is this explained on the website and I just didn't get to it with my quick perusal? Okay, I'm off to research! Thanks for the link!! Yes, I would recommend just working on spelling and Blend Phonics for a while. You could also do the concentration game for fun practice. He is ready to go back to reading when he has over-learned all the phonics he needs to know to be able to sound anything out. It actually shouldn't take long at the point he's at, 2 or 3 weeks of solid work on just phonics and spelling should do it, then you can add in some reading again, and you should see much less guessing. Adding in the spelling really cemented the phonics in my daughter's brain, reading is decoding and spelling is encoding, being able to do both really strengthens their decoding abilities, you're learning it to a much higher level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen+4dc Posted June 12, 2009 Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 Thanks Elizabeth. I'm going to spend some time this weekend familiarizing myself with Blend Phonics (which I've never heard of before) and next week we start just phonics and spelling for a couple weeks! We'll see how it goes. Thank you for your help! (and the free info on your website:D). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Thanks Elizabeth. I'm going to spend some time this weekend familiarizing myself with Blend Phonics (which I've never heard of before) and next week we start just phonics and spelling for a couple weeks! We'll see how it goes. Thank you for your help! (and the free info on your website:D). You're welcome. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 I just wanted to throw something out there about saying "lille" instead of "little" -- this strikes me as more a pronunciation question. I know that my kids (who are younger than yours) have gotten confused with the sort of American "t" that sounds like a "d" and then morphing that into an "l" so they aren't sure if it's "shadow" or "shatow" or "shallow," or "laller" or "ladder." They are bilingual and only have this problem in English. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen+4dc Posted June 18, 2009 Author Share Posted June 18, 2009 Okay, I NEVER thought I have to ask this question about this particular child!!! But, we've been doing just Spelling and Blend Phonics this week (started Monday). We haven't done any readers. But, ds7 keeps picking up things to read on his own. I haven't encouraged or stopped this, I've just noticed and ignored. Should I stop him?? He's not usually been one to just pick up a book and "read" on his own so I hate to discourage that. He's been fine with doing the Blend phonics, I simply explained that it's something new I wanted to try because I think it will really help him jump up to level 3 (where he needs to be for his Star War movie bribe) in just 2 or 3 weeks. So, he's willing to do anything that will help him get there.:001_smile: Today was his bday and we went out to dinner. He was randomly reading the menu out loud to his sister. That would never have happened 6 weeks ago!! So, do I stop him? If so, how much? I know, I know, weird question, who stops their kids from reading????:confused: Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IATeachingMom Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I really like Webster's Speller! But, you could also try Blend Phonics. I have tutored dozens of kids like this, nonsense words and Blend Phonics with Webster's Speller usually do the trick. Here's a link to what I do for my remedial students, step by step instructions to using Blend Phonics that teaches the syllables easily, gently, and logically, making a nice lead-in to Webster's Speller, it also has links to nonsense words and my phonics concentration game which makes nonsense words: Where would one find "Webster's Speller" and figure out how to use it? TIA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUV2EDU Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Don't worry. This is normal. Some adults skip over words or read words that are not there. This is why we need someone else to read our letters or essays for errors.:001_smile: However, when your child enters high school, speed reading will be encouraged for the SAT or ACT tests. Speed readers don't read word from word. They choose the important words. Speed readers finish their exams quicker than students who read word from word. http://www.ababasoft.com/words/not_read_every_word.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Okay, I NEVER thought I have to ask this question about this particular child!!! But, we've been doing just Spelling and Blend Phonics this week (started Monday). We haven't done any readers. But, ds7 keeps picking up things to read on his own. I haven't encouraged or stopped this, I've just noticed and ignored. Should I stop him?? He's not usually been one to just pick up a book and "read" on his own so I hate to discourage that. He's been fine with doing the Blend phonics, I simply explained that it's something new I wanted to try because I think it will really help him jump up to level 3 (where he needs to be for his Star War movie bribe) in just 2 or 3 weeks. So, he's willing to do anything that will help him get there.:001_smile: Today was his bday and we went out to dinner. He was randomly reading the menu out loud to his sister. That would never have happened 6 weeks ago!! So, do I stop him? If so, how much? I know, I know, weird question, who stops their kids from reading????:confused: Thanks! At that age, don't worry about it, don't stop the reading on their own! For my remedial students who have years of really bad guessing habits, I recommend a reading fast for 2 to 4 weeks until they've learned the phonics well. (And I love to read and feel odd telling anyone not to read...but it means more reading in the long run if they just focus on correct reading during the first part of intense phonics training.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Where would one find "Webster's Speller" and figure out how to use it? TIA My Webster link below has a link to a pdf of Webster's Speller re-typed by Don Potter. It also explains how to use it and has a link to a movie showing how to use it. There are also several threads about how to use it, the first is long, but good, and aimed at a beginning student for the most part: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70153 This second link is shorter and aimed mainly at older students: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97408 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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