Lingua Latina Question

[Cedarmom]

We are using Henle Latin and I just bought Lingua Latina to supplement it. The author of Lingua Latina instructs the student to read it to himself silently, then the teacher reads alouds and the author says:

 

If the reading is done carefully, with correct pronunciation and appropriate accentuation and grouping of words, the students will find to their satisfaction that they can understand the text immediately and will feel no need to translate.

 

My question is, have any of you used this method? How exactly does it work?We have just done the traditional way of translating each word ,sentence by sentence. How is the student supposed to understand without translating?

 

I am rather dubious about his approach,but would love to hear how others have done it successfully.

 

Cedarmom

[LisaNY]

Each capitulum in LL is usually broken down into three sections. You should not read the capitulum all at once, but in sections.

 

When I used this in my co-op, I would read the section aloud, while the children followed along in their books. We would then take turns reading a few lines at a time. At home you could do the same thing.

 

I never, ever let the children translate. It defeats the purpose of the natural/immersion method. Each capitulum should be read 10-15 times. You will be amazed at how comprehension builds just by re-reading. You will notice that the margins contain pictures and words, which act as clues for figuring out grammar and vocabulary. Make heavy use of them - they do help. Once we have read the section several times, I would ask comprehension questions, to make sure the children understand what is happening in the story. You can ask your dc to write a brief Latin summary of what happened. (If necessary, you can help this process by writing a brief summary in English first.)

 

If after several readings, your dc still do not understand a passage, or vocabulary word, try illustrating it, or acting it out. After that, you can give them the vocabulary word. The point is to try and trust the process. :)

 

A typical schedule for you would be to do several lessons in Henle, then begin reading a section from LL each day. Read from LL daily, progressing through the chapters and sections until you hit grammar you have not yet covered in Henle. Go back to Henle, and then move on in LL until you again hit grammar you have not yet covered, and so on. You should read daily from LL. Don't move too quickly through LL. The chapters are deceptively easy at first, but get more complex as you move through. By Cap. VI, you are already covering the passive voice. I would suggest getting the Exercitia, which has questions for each section in the capitulum.

 

I HIGHLY recommend that you move through LL well ahead of your dc. It will make things a lot easier for you. :)

[Plaid Dad]

I was also very skeptical about Oerberg. I've always disliked inductive methods, particulary for languages, but I've come around about Lingua Latina. The proof was in the pudding - seeing even young kids read and speak Latin perfectly. It is truly an incredible method!

 

To make the best use of Lingua Latina, it's important to understand the reasoning behind the method. I strongly recommend getting a copy of Latine Doceo: A Companion for Instructors. It specifically addresses the needs of homeschoolers along with teachers new to Oerberg. I'm re-reading it now and it's an excellent resource. The Natural Method is so different from the Grammar-Translation Method that teachers often need to unlearn certain habits in order to get the most out of Lingua Latina. That's not to say that you can't be flexible, but I've found that the closer I stick to Oerberg's intentions with the book, the better my students do.

 

That said, if you are using LL as a supplement only, I would emphasize reading aloud and listening to the audio (if you have the audio CD or the CD-ROM). I usually read each section (lectio) aloud to my students, paragraph by paragraph, checking for comprehension. I don't translate, but use the marginalia in the book, pantomime, synonyms, and simple comprehension questions in Latin to get the story across. I then have the students do choral reading, then individual reading. With one student, I alternate sentences with them, then eventually move to having them read whole paragraphs aloud to me.

 

I don't expect them to do any written exercises until they have read/heard the selection a minimum of three times, and five is better. I do correct pronunciation by repeating the word or sentence correctly. I have students act out the dialogs whenever possible, and I expect them to read with expression and vitality. This helps to get the grammar and vocabulary into their ears. I also ask students to read current and past chapters aloud every day. This is the equivalent of "chanting forms" in the g/t method - repetition is key, no matter what method you use. You want them to get to the point where the correct usage is so natural that they will instantly notice an incorrect form should they or a classmate produce one. If a student can't remember a form, I first send him (or her) back to the text to find an example in context. If he is still confused, only then do I direct him to a grammar chart or, as a very last resort, translate. Only very rarely is that necessary.

 

By the way, there is an active mailing list for teachers using Oerberg. Homeschoolers are welcome. I've found it invaluable.

 

HTH! Bona fortuna!

[Cedarmom]

Thanks Lisa and Plaid Dad. You have given me some great suggestions!

 

I have to admit that I "looked down upon " the immersion method as inferior. But, as I am hitting a wall in my Latin studies, I am willing to try it.

 

One of my concerns with the immersion method is whether the student will just get a general idea of what is said and not the entire text. I could see this working well in the beginning, but struggling when it is time to read the actual texts, such as Aeneid.

How are your students doing when the reach the harder stuff?

 

Hopefully, I am not sounding argumenitive. I want to find a way that both my son and I can learn Latin in the most effective manner.

 

Cedarmom

[Plaid Dad]

None of my students is at that point yet, but the reason I picked up Lingua Latina was to improve my reading skills. My reading fluency has increased dramatically. I still struggle with the more complex authors - mostly because I need to expand my vocabulary - but I can read Caesar and some of the less prolix bits of Cicero fairly easily now.

 

I posted a few days ago about a conversation I had with a headmaster at a classical academy in my state. He gets transfer students who have two years of Wheelock under their belts but, as he put it, "don't know any Latin." They can do exercises in a Latin textbook - well, in Wheelock, anyway - but they can't read real Latin at all. He has to put them back in with the freshman because he knows from experience that they won't be able to hack the upper level Latin literature courses unless they backtrack. In contrast, the students who begin with Oerberg in 9th grade make the transition to real Latin authors almost seamlessly, and they are able to read greater quantities of prose because they don't have to pick apart each sentence; they simply understand what they read. I have heard similar stories again and again from teachers on the Oerberg list. Lingua Latina has been around for 50 years, although it's not that well known in the States; it really does work.

[Cedarmom]

Thanks, that is very reassuring. I will do Lingua Latine per the author's instructions.

 

Cedarmom

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I tried with Wheelock for two years. I could NOT read Latin at all. I could take apart a sentence, parse it, get the cases and infer the meaning from that. But I could not read Latin. And as soon as a sentence gets a bit more complex (Caesar comes to mind, his prose is different, although he's not the most complex - he's just the one that gave *me* the most trouble!), I was lost.

 

I started Lingua Latina in September. I'm not going fast with it. I'm re-doing chapters very often. I let it slide for a month, and pick it back up again to see what I've really retained. And wow, does it make a difference. I'm not retaining as much as I would like to - that's because I'm over 40- but it's so much more natural!

 

It's similar to when I was learning English. I could do the exercises, but I couldn't speak it. I couldn't read it, until I picked up Lord of the Rings. I had read the French version at least 7 times within a year. I knew it by heart. So I picked up the English one. The beginning was like Chinese - it was a pretty good thing that I knew the story already, but by the third book, I was a fluent English reader - something that 7 years of ESL never did for me!

[Plaid Dad]

I couldn't read it, until I picked up Lord of the Rings.

 

This is so wonderful! I jokingly tell people I was taught to read by The Professor himself because I figured out English phonics sitting on my mother's lap as she read The Hobbit to me. Who knew JRRT was an ESL teacher, too? :D

[LisaNY]

 

I started Lingua Latina in September. I'm not going fast with it. I'm re-doing chapters very often. I let it slide for a month, and pick it back up again to see what I've really retained. And wow, does it make a difference. I'm not retaining as much as I would like to - that's because I'm over 40- but it's so much more natural!

 

It's similar to when I was learning English. I could do the exercises, but I couldn't speak it. I couldn't read it, until I picked up Lord of the Rings. I had read the French version at least 7 times within a year. I knew it by heart. So I picked up the English one. The beginning was like Chinese - it was a pretty good thing that I knew the story already, but by the third book, I was a fluent English reader - something that 7 years of ESL never did for me!

 

Cleo, I can *so* relate to the over 40 thing! Oh! I have never had such a desire to learn, but my old brain just wants to sleep all the time! :rolleyes: But, I am determined, so I persevere. I just keep on hammering away at Lingua Latina, and will continue until I finish.

 

I love your story about learning English! What a great book by which to learn it! :)

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I love your story about learning English! What a great book by which to learn it! :)

 

Well, to be honest, my spoken English was a bit special for a few years!!! The Professor's English is not quite colloquial English. :D

[LisaNY]

Thanks Lisa and Plaid Dad. You have given me some great suggestions!

 

I have to admit that I "looked down upon " the immersion method as inferior. But, as I am hitting a wall in my Latin studies, I am willing to try it.

 

One of my concerns with the immersion method is whether the student will just get a general idea of what is said and not the entire text. I could see this working well in the beginning, but struggling when it is time to read the actual texts, such as Aeneid.

How are your students doing when the reach the harder stuff?

 

Hopefully, I am not sounding argumenitive. I want to find a way that both my son and I can learn Latin in the most effective manner.

 

Cedarmom

 

I didn't think you were being argumentative at all. :)

 

Many people feel that the immersion method is inferior, because they assume that the grammar is not being taught. It is taught, but not in the same way as in the grammar/translation method, where full paradigms are given right away, and grammar concepts are given up front. Instead, you read a story first, where you see the grammar "in action", in context, and then it is explained at the end. Since it is done this way, this program is best taught by someone who has Latin background themselves. (Like Plaid Dad) It's fairly easy to implement at first, but it gets complicated as you move into the latter part of the text. The teacher needs to make sure that the students have really grasped the grammar in each chapter. A student can do the exercises, and still not know the grammar fully.

 

So, yes, a student can read through "real" Latin, and get the gist, but not fully know what is going on. You need to spend time parsing sentences, to insure understanding of the grammar. And yes, IMO, you do have to spend time memorizing paradigms in LL. :)

[Cedarmom]

Thanks Lisa for explaining in detail. We have finished unit 8 of Henle. Since I am learning along with my son, I will do your earlier suggestion of working until we come to something new, and then studying it in Henle. I think part of my hesitation, was trying to only use Lingua Latina as my grammar. I need more then that. And I agree with you that we still need to memorize the grammar.I am actually now very excited about Lingua Latina. I think we are at the right time for us to start it.

 

Cedarmom

[LisaNY]

Thanks Lisa for explaining in detail. We have finished unit 8 of Henle. Since I am learning along with my son, I will do your earlier suggestion of working until we come to something new, and then studying it in Henle. I think part of my hesitation, was trying to only use Lingua Latina as my grammar. I need more then that. And I agree with you that we still need to memorize the grammar.I am actually now very excited about Lingua Latina. I think we are at the right time for us to start it.

 

Cedarmom

 

Great! Let me know how things go. :)

[Annie N]

Not much of a help, but we got the Rosary in Latin, to help with the phonics of Latin. I was really amazed when the 3rd time I listened to the same thing, I could understand it!!!! And this was the beginning, where they were saying things like "The mystery of the Nativity of Christ is to be contemplated, and obedience prayed for." (I'm not sure that's what they pray for in that mystery, but that's the general idea) And the amazing thing is that before that, I hadn't even figured out that there was that second part!

 

So, I am a lot more confident of LL working for us (but I have to go out and get another Latin book for the grammar :( )

[Plaid Dad]

Not much of a help, but we got the Rosary in Latin, to help with the phonics of Latin.

 

Where did you find this? I would love to get a copy!

[Cedarmom]

Not much of a help, but we got the Rosary in Latin, to help with the phonics of Latin. I was really amazed when the 3rd time I listened to the same thing, I could understand it!!!! was that second part!

QUOTE]

 

Oh yes, that reminds me, we have prayers on our Latina Christina Cd. I think I'll bring it out again!

 

Cedarmom

[Annie N]

 

Where did you find this? I would love to get a copy!

Hi Plaid :) This is where I got the one I use. And I must say that it is very good, altho a bit fast for my 7yo. However, here is another source for a Latin rosary, which I have not heard, but which also has a lot of other stuff, which one day I hope to be able to afford...

[Plaid Dad]

Thank you so much! :)