Classical Conversations -thoughts?

[Terabith]

Off topic question: We are signed up for Classical Conversations for my 5.5 year old next year. We're doing it largely bc there aren't a lot of homeschool groups around here. My daughter very much wants to go TO school, so this is sort of a compromise. She'll get to do school with the same group of kids week after week.

 

However, I don't know what materials we are going to need for Foundations Year 1. I know there is a cd. Is it audio? And I thought something about the Veritas Press cards. Anyone have a list of what we need? Our program's director is pretty new and there hasn't been a ton of information sent out.

[SueinNC]

Ok, from memory, you will need:

 

Foundations Guide

All 5 sets of Vp cards

audio cd (optional but aids in memory work, play in car, play at home, helpful tunes to help memorize sentences)

powerpoint cd (optional but has neat 8 X 11 "cards" with pictures)

You can print the slides on card stock and use as flash cards

tin whistle

 

Also optional but helpful :

 

The Janice Van Cleave science book (see website for exact title) where the experiments are pulled

The Everything you wanted to know History and science homework books-where the science and history memory work is pulled from

The classical music book for dummies

Discovering Great Artists for the art projects

I think that's everything...

Edited June 12, 2009 by Caledonia Academy
left out the art book

[Scuff]

Are the Veritas Press CDs included on the CC 2CD set? Would it be redundant to get both CD sets?

[Sara in WA]

The Veritas cards are not on the CDs. One CD is an audio CD and one is for the computer. I have a Mac, so the computer CD doesn't work for me. The audio CD is priceless!

[Oak Knoll Mom]

Are the Veritas Press CDs included on the CC 2CD set? Would it be redundant to get both CD sets?

 

No, because CC re-organizes the order of the VP cards.

[Scuff]

Why does it reorganize the order?

[SonshineLearner]

You do NOT need to buy the audio cd or the memory work resource cd! You can purchase, very inexpensively, the online "C3" community. You receive the code for the reduced price...available to registered members of CC communities. Last year, the basic package ended up being $6 a month. (So, if you want it for 6 months....a total of $36.) The C3 has both MP3's of the memory work...to download, as well as something called "tutorials" that are really fun that go over the memory work.

If you don't want it for all of the months, you could purchase it before the first week, and then again about half way through. (The material is loaded on the C3 for 12 weeks at a time, thus $6 x 2times...= $12)

 

Carrie:-)

[Linda...inOwasso]

MamaBlessedThrice... a couple of observations regarding your post and hopefully some satisfactory answers to your questions.

 

You state that you don't necessarily want to alter the way you approach educating your children. I wonder.. what it is you DO want? What brought you to a CC info. meeting in the first place? You say you wanted more information and your questions taken seriously. Sounds like a logical and reasonable request to me. It also sounds like the director did not explain the purpose of an information meeting.

 

I'm a director for CC and I conduct many information meetings. The purpose of an information meeting is to provide a general overview of the entire program in two hours. My typical audience consists of: moms who have never home-schooled; moms who are currently home-schooling, but have never heard of the classical model of education; moms who have heard of classical education, but don't really understand it; and moms of 4 year olds to moms of teens. My job is to effectively communicate what a classical, Christian education is, what CC is, the structure of the program, the logistics of the program, and the benefits of the program to a very diverse audience in two hours. Now, I received my B.A. in public speaking and I think an extemporaneous speech on just about any topic is easier to deliver than an information meeting!

 

I understand clearly what you wanted from the director. I also understand why she wasn't able to answer your questions in detail. There is generally more than one attendee at an information meeting and as the speaker, the director is expected to present a survey of CC in consideration of all those in the audience. I can assure you your role was not to sit and be amazed at how much information kids could "drink in" and "be educated." I know many classical educators and none would say a mere memorization and recitation of facts constituted being educated. Most however, would say it was a good start to a quality education. Again, I believe the director focused on conveying a child's ability to memorize large quanitities of information since it's such an integral part of classical education and virtually non-existent in modern education.

 

As for your wariness of being educated by tutors whose credentials are either sketchy or unknown... I think that fear alone would eliminate CC as a good choice for you and your family. Here's why: Leigh Bortins, the founder of CC, is a huge proponent of convincing moms (or dads) that they CAN educate their children through high-school. CC doesn't use "master" teachers for specific subjects... our tutors are home-school moms or dads. Although I have a bachelor's degree, my state manager never asked for it when I applied to become a director. She asked me why I home-school, whether I plan to go the distance with it, and about my faith. They also required a background check. So, as far as "credentials".... there you have it. Kind of "sketchy" perhaps, but genuine and real. And our qualifications aren't much either: just the desire to build a community of classical, Christian home-educators, a love for learning, and an abiding faith in God.

 

In CC, we're all expected to learn together. Kids, parents, tutors, directors, alike. Many of my friends believe God is redeeming our own education through our children. I don't know how else you can advocate life-long learning if you're not learning too.

 

Classical Conversations has a national website: http://www.classicalconversations.com/. I give all the attendees at my information meetings a copy of CC's full-color catalog which explains much about the programs. I also give out my email and phone number and have spent countless hours answering more in-depth questions such as yours in addition to just helping moms determine the best phonics program for their 5 year-old. You'll find the scope and sequence, philosophy, teaching methods, etc... on the website. And the founder, the woman who actually designed the entire program and wrote the Essentials of the English Language (grammar text) has a blog you might enjoy: http://1smartmama.blogspot.com/.

 

I'm sorry your experience at the information meeting was so disappointing for you. I'll bet the director recognized by your questions what a gifted individual you are and hoped you would share your passion and enthusiasm through tutoring. Peace be with you!

[elfinbaby]

For Foundations I would get the guide, audio cd, and VP timeline cards. Then join C3 somewhere along the way. That's it. I have the other books but I have never pull them out. It just depends on what else you have going on in your schedule. DS is 11 so we've got plenty.

[MamaBlessedThrice]

Linda, did you see my last post in response to ElfinBaby's perspective? I mention in it a little more of where I'm coming from on this.

 

By the way, let me reiterate that I'm really talking only about my own personal experience at an informational meeting for a particular campus--and that what I'm looking for may be totally different from what others are looking for in a co-op. You sound like you've really dedicated yourself to helping others in your campus setting and gone the extra mile to make sure that people DO have the answers and information they need. (I wish I'd had you to explain it!) In case this is any help to others reading along, here are some answers to a few of your questions/comments:

 

You state that you don't necessarily want to alter the way you approach educating your children. I wonder.. what it is you DO want? What brought you to a CC info. meeting in the first place?

 

Well, the key word is "necessarily." I'm not opposed to altering how I educate the kids, of course; I'm constantly reading, researching and adapting my teaching practices, as I'm sure we all are. But I do want to make sure that I understand and am in agreement with the people whom I'm supposed to be learning from before I "sign up" to be trained, know what I mean? Especially when I'm paying hundreds of dollars.

 

 

There is generally more than one attendee at an information meeting and as the speaker, the director is expected to present a survey of CC in consideration of all those in the audience.

 

Well, I realize that there are parents from a wide variety of backgrounds, but I guess I still think that all parents need answers to the kinds of questions I was asking in order to make an informed decision, whether they may be prepared at the time to ask them or not. Two hours seems like enough time; it may not be an easy task, but come on, y'all are up to the job! ;) If it truly is not the venue, then I would have appreciated being given the catalog and other information you mentioned that you give to attendees, or told that there is a blog. (This is all news to me and very useful--THANKS! It sounds like you're a more able presenter than you give yourself credit for.)

 

We all do so much research on curriculum before we buy to find out things like who wrote the materials, whether they know what they're talking about (science curriculum, for instance, written by people who aren't scientists? Nutty, but we all know it's out there!), what kind of reviews the material has received from content-area specialists and respected educators, etc. CC costs well over a thousand dollars for several kids; for us, it's essential that we know exactly what we're getting up front.

 

By the way, does anyone know if there are sample pages of the grammar and writing curriculum used in Essentials online? This is extremely important to be able to review before being able to make an informed decision. I don't say that you necessarily HAVE to have a degree in the subject to write a solid curriculum, but I think it's fair to say that if you don't have a degree in the subject or experience in the field, then you should expect folks to want to check out your materials for themselves and/or scout around for reviews/recommendations before committing to a purchase.)

 

 

I know many classical educators and none would say a mere memorization and recitation of facts constituted being educated.

 

Really? I've known quite a few who considered that this is exactly what does constitute being educated in the grammar stage. Truly. More than one person I know who attends CC has said to me, "Kids don't need to learn the facts in context or understand them. They'll put it in context later in the Logic stage." Which, of course, is one interpretation of classical education, but a big difference from what others would say.

 

CC doesn't use "master" teachers for specific subjects... our tutors are home-school moms or dads. . . . So, as far as "credentials".... there you have it. Kind of "sketchy" perhaps, but genuine and real. And our qualifications aren't much either: just the desire to build a community of classical, Christian home-educators, a love for learning, and an abiding faith in God.

 

Oops, I hope I haven't offended; I've never had any doubt that everyone I've heard of associated with CC is a genuine and good-hearted person. Only that tutors are trained by someone, right? And everyone learning together is presumably learning from some source--CC training materials? If so, what are they based on? From curriculum? Other books? Each other? I think these are valid questions in light of the fact that participants do pay tuition. In other words: how does the homeschool mom or dad who is tutoring my son offer him something beyond what I could do at home, if neither they nor I have a degree in the subject, say? I'm not being snarky; I really want to know. Perhaps it's as ElfinBaby suggested--that it's the presentation techniques that are the focus rather than the subject matter knowlege . . .? Would you say from your perspective as a director on your campus that this is CC's focus: "how" to memorize, rather than "what" to memorize?

 

I'm keen to find out answers to these questions, by the way, because A) more and more friends of mine are enrolling in a CC group in our area, which makes me wonder if I missed something when I originally decided it's not for us, and B) we really would love to have some additional fellowship, since the mass exodus to CC in our town has crippled and shut down some of the co-ops that I was interested in joining. (Why not ask the friends, you ask? Because if they give me a glowing review of CC and then I decide it's not for us, they might take it as an implied criticism of their choice to attend and be hurt, and I don't want that! This is a more neutral place to get info without hurting anyone's feelings. :001_smile:)

 

This has been a good thread . . . with so many responses, I feel I've been better able to piece together a better idea of what CC's about. Thanks to the OP for starting it!

[newhsmommy]

I agree this has been a good thread...thank you!

 

We have decided not to join CC in our area. Actually, some of us went to the "training" to really see what it was all about and realized it was not for our family.

 

We do have some great classical co-ops in our town, which are also far less to join, focused on the children, and parents pich in so nobody feels the burden.

 

THANKS AGAIN :)

[Linda...inOwasso]

Mama,

 

Thanks for your kind words. Believe me, I'm no exception when it comes to directing a CC community or hosting an information meeting. I've learned from watching some of the most dedicated, hard-working, committed home-educators I know. I don't know what state you're in, but if you check the national CC website, you will find your state's manager. If you're not able to get your questions answered by the director of your local community, contact your state manager. She is an invaluable resource and can answer any questions you may have regarding CC.

 

Also, look to see when your state is offering a 3-day free parent practicum. Part of the money CC collects in fees is spent to provide these seminars to home-educators each summer. They cost you nothing. You do not have to be enrolled in a CC community. The purpose of the summer practicum is to learn more about the classical model of education; practice being the student and tackling different subjects: this summer it's logic. Oy! The fellowship is unbelievable and rejuvenates me for the upcoming school year. Whether or not CC is for you, I really think you'd enjoy the practicum.

 

The tutors for the Foundations program (K4 - 6th) aren't "teaching" you or your children anything; they're modeling how to memorize large amounts of material. I agree with the people you know who say "Kids don't need to learn the facts in context or understand them during the grammar stage." But, I disagree that merely knowing a collection of facts constitutes being "educated" at any stage of life. The memorization of facts in the grammar stage lays the foundation upon which an education can be built.

 

Another poster mentioned the grammar stage is more about the "how" of memorizing than the "what". Yes, it is. There is any number of things you could memorize to train your brain for this skill, but Leigh Bortins has selected the basic grammar or vocabulary of 7 subjects in which to learn this task. Theoretically, you could teach the skill of memorization by having your children memorize anything! I prefer the useful facts CC has accumulated and sorted into 24 week cycles.

 

As to your question regarding what does a tutor have to offer your son that you can't at home? My answer: nothing and a lot. The tutors don't have any materials that you don't have access to and they're supposed to present the materials each week in class, not go into an in-depth study of any topics. So, if you like the CC materials and don't want to or can't afford to join a community, don't. Do it at home within your own family. Get a few friends together and create your own informal group. Participants are paying the tutors to be prepared to present the material each week. They're not paying for expertise in any particular subject in the Foundations program.

 

In the Essentials program (4th - 6th grade), the writing curriculum used is IEW. The grammar curriculum is Essentials of the English Language, which was written by Leigh Bortins, the founder of CC. You can find numerous samples of IEW writing products on their website and plenty of reviews on this board as well as others. Again, you are certainly capable of teaching IEW independently at home -- thousands do. The benefit to doing it in a group setting like CC is the accountability of "getting it done each week." And, this is where positive peer pressure can work to our benefit as home-school moms. The students read part of their papers aloud in class each week. I've seen amazing improvements in writing (especially with boys) when they know they're going to get to share their creativity with their peers. As for the EEL guide, I don't think there is a sample anywhere that I know of. Excellent idea! I will pass it along to my state manager and see if CC can get a sample posted on their website. From my perspective, EEL is most similar to Shurley English, except even more intense. It covers in 3 years what Shurley covers in 7.

 

And lastly, the Challenge programs for 7th - 12th grade are simply the best I've ever seen at preparing a child for college and the world beyond. The CC catalog lists every book they read and all curriculum so you can decide for yourself if it meets the needs of your family.

 

And no offense taken whatsoever. I left the world of content-area specialists and respected educators behind a few years ago when I brought my children home from a high-priced, private school FULL of educators with multiple degrees and credentials. Perhaps it's arrogance, but I truly believe I'm doing a better job. The only credentials I have are those given to me by God when he blessed me with children. Leigh Bortins and countless other women have empowered me to educate my children and I suppose I'm just dumb enough to believe I can.

 

Whether or not CC is a good-fit for your family, I wish you an amazingly blessed home-school journey. We are so fortunate to be traveling this path! Thanks for allowing me to share my understanding of CC with you.

[angela in ohio]

My experience at the info meeting was of asking a LOT of in-depth questions regarding assessment, scope and sequence, specific teaching methods, philosophy regarding the relationship of memorization toward conceptual understanding, rationale behind the chronology, adaptations for individual differences, the educational credentials of those who wrote the materials, etc . . . and of hitting a brick wall with a director who did NOT want to answer those particular questions.

 

I would have to agree that these are not the type of questions a Director may not be prepared to answer. It's kind of like you were asking what color fur a fish has. :) There are not formal assessments, there is no scope and sequence, and that is the point of classical education. :) It is not a one-size-fits-all method. That is why the parent is so involved.

 

In my experience, it has been more difficult for parents with degrees in education to embrace classical education and CC in particular. We are leaving behind what the public schools are doing, and it is harder to do that if you have been officially trained to do what they do, I think.

 

As far as credentials, the woman who wrote the materials has a degree in Aerospace Engineering. She has been teaching children and researching classical education methods for 20 years. She doesn't have any official credentials for writing classical education curriculum (I don' think there are any available anyway,) but her "certification" comes from other homeschool parents looking at her and seeing that she has a vision, an ability, and a heart for children and the Lord. IMHO, this is how homeschoolers will need to "certify" each other, if we are to move forward and leave behind the failed methods of modern education.

 

I would add more, but Linda did such a great job of explaining everything, especially Leigh Bortin's vision. I will just say that is hard to break away from a reliance on "experts" and realize that each parent is capable of great things without needing anybody official to stamp them certified. :)

[angela in ohio]

Why does it reorganize the order?

 

The VP cards, when purchased from VP and used with their curriculum, are not strictly chronological. Each set overlaps the next a bit, because they finish out a topic (Greece, etc.) in the card set. CC has taken the set of 160 and reorganized them to be in one long chronological list.

[Scuff]

Thank you! I didn't know that about VP. So are there songs or other helps on the CC Cd to help memorize them in chronollogical order?

[MamaBlessedThrice]

Thanks, Linda, for taking the time for such a thorough response. You've really answered a lot of my questions, especially by confirming the focus on methods of memorization rather than content. That's a big thing to understand; now it only remains to balance the disadvantages of introducing out-of-context content against the obvious advantages of having kids learn new techniques of memorization in a positive peer group. Thanks also for the overview of the grammar and writing portion.

 

Angela, I think you're right that I was missing the philosophical distinctive in CC with my original questions. In a way, I'm starting to think that CC is like the co-op that isn't what you expect from a co-op, in that it doesn't "teach" academic subjects like you would expect, but rather memorization techniques using academic subjects. (At least in Foundations, I guess.) Thanks for all the input!

Edited June 15, 2009 by MamaBlessedThrice

[elfinbaby]

I was thinking just this morning about when I first signed up for CC. I really didn't understand how it was going to work but I knew from the info meeting that if my children could accomplish what the director was describing, I was in! I think it's better to visit a campus and see how it works (and if that particular campus' culture suits you;)) - along with attending an info meeting beforehand. Last year was CC's first year in our area so we had to take a leap of faith. Since it is a co-op but oh-so-very-different than a typical co-op, it's hard to see the big picture.

 

I'm not sure I see any disadvantages of my children memorizing the information at CC - whether it's out of context or not. For instance, we have several families who do TOG and Sonlight. When they signed up they continued with that curriculum. I, on the other hand, went ahead and planned my history and science according to what we would be studying in CC (Am. His., US Geography, Human Body, Chemistry, etc.). It worked out very well. However, even if we had been studying Ancients at home (like some families were), there would be no disadvantages of taking 20 min. a day to maintain the facts that my children were learning at CC - 160 pt. World History Timeline, presidents, 24 Am. History sentences, English Grammar definitions, US states and capitals, and a crazy amount of geography (ds can draw the mountain ranges on a blank map, poineer trails, 10 prominent features + more). There's just no disadvantage to that imo. It's basic information that I could treat like memorization work. How in depth one goes into it is up to the parent at home. DS (10) and I could read about the facts and chat while my dd(5) can't even say Monroe Doctrine (she says Monroe Doctriss:P) but at her age, memorizing is just for fun. She's focusing on reading, writing, and math. Whatever she gets out of CC is a bonus. She didn't even attend last year and picked up on more than you would believe just listening to the songs in the car. Does she "get" it? No. But she can recognize George Washington, states, and more just through the exposure. Since there are 3 cycles repeated over 3 years, she will encounter the info again. Each time she revisits it, she will understand more, going a little deeper each time.

 

This year my history plans aren't going to line up exactly with CC. We'll motor right along and I'll bring in living books about the history they are learning at CC. I don't think it'll be a big deal. I want my children to learn more than just the facts they are memorizing but how much I give them depends on their age. Plus, some of the facts they will be memorizing are so basic - multiplication tables, English grammar definitions, irregular verbs and their tenses, timeline, dates/events in history - it can only help them when they get into the dialectic/rhetoric stage. DS is going into dialectic and also participated in Essentials. His knowledge of grammar through learning the defs. in Foundations and practicing them in Essentials blew me away. Frankly, it made my head hurt! I need more resources to keep up with him:)

 

Gotta go - but real quick. The Essentials text is very thorough and can work on different age levels - much like IEW. DS was in 4th grade when he took it and it's going to take another couple of years for him to completely master the info. That said, he did an amazing job this year and is not at all intimidated by grammar, diagramming, etc. In fact, he asks for more sentences to diagram.

[bethben]

Here's my question. My first desire is to organize a TOG co-op, but I really like elements of CC also (we have discussions floating around for both right now). The main thing about not doing CC is the cost. We just can't afford the tutition for 2 children. It would be my whole home school budget for the year and then some. What elements of CC did you find the most helpful for kids in the long run? Which memorization elements would you not want your kids to miss out on?

Beth

[elfinbaby]

Well, I'm going to give this a go but 1) I've never done TOG, just looked at the samples on the site 2) I'm assuming you do not want to begin/direct a full CC program, right?

 

If it were me, as part of a group setting, I'd decide on TOG or CC. It could get messy picking and choosing info to match up in an effort to combine. I think it would water down both programs. Doing your own program at home and adding the CC cycle is different imo. If I'm not mistaken, you can get the Foundations guide and start your own group. The older ed. guides are $25 (then just download the updates). The VP timeline cards are teh expensive part - about $100 for the whole set.

 

If I wanted a group w/o the cost of tuition, I'd invite families and stress the importance of attending every class.

 

What part is most helpful?? That is so hard to answer. I don't know how to pick and choose. My favorite subjects are the history and geography. Learning the VP timeline, history sentences (which are put to music on teh audio cd), and learning the US and World maps (they trace them every class as well). I LOVE that part. IMO the information is so well chosen. I'm thrilled that my children will have committed these basic facts across many subjects to memory before questioning/analyzing etc. in the upper levels. There is a sample of the new Foundations guide. Maybe that would give you a picture of a day at CC in Foundations. Also, the students do get to do more than just memorize. We do a science experiment and art/music/or tin whistle for fine arts (depending on the semester).

 

I don't think I helped. Eeek! I tried.

[NCMom]

Here's my question. My first desire is to organize a TOG co-op, but I really like elements of CC also (we have discussions floating around for both right now). The main thing about not doing CC is the cost. We just can't afford the tutition for 2 children. It would be my whole home school budget for the year and then some. What elements of CC did you find the most helpful for kids in the long run? Which memorization elements would you not want your kids to miss out on?

Beth

 

Timeline, geography, US presidents and math were the most useful to us.

 

hth,

Georgia

[farmhousemom]

My reasons for not chosing CC:

 

1. We've already done some of the curriculums (SOTW, bluestocking Economics, Drawing With Children are a few I noticed).

2. Some curriculums we wouldn't choose (Saxon-We like A Beka and Foerster, FLVS and other units/kits for Science etc., using Classical Writing.)

3. I just can't see paying $$$ and spending that much time for something I can teach at home. I suspect the meetings are similar to coops I've been at-too many kids and too little control. It takes more time to teach in that environment and IMO it just isn't efficient.

4. It is my understanding that the children get 'homework' on the non CC days. One of the major problems I had with regular school was the helpless and disjointed feeling of not knowing exactly what was covered in the class and yet having to help with homework. I don't want to teach homework for another teacher.

 

I'm sure CC works for some and if that is the case then I think that is great. The idea is to do what works. :)

 

The CC I am joining limits each class to 8 students, so it won't be "too many kids and too little control." I just wanted to throw that out for others thinking about CC.

[angela in ohio]

The CC I am joining limits each class to 8 students, so it won't be "too many kids and too little control." I just wanted to throw that out for others thinking about CC.

 

All Foundations classes are limited to 8 students. Challenge is limited to 12.

[MamaBlessedThrice]

While doing a search on an entirely different topic on the boards, this thread about Classical Conversations came up:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62701&highlight=drawing+children

 

This is a thread from back in the fall that talks about review games played at CC and was hugely eye-opening. This is the kind of info I haven't been able to get from info meetings, and really gives you a "fly-on-the-wall" perspective on what classes are like. If I'd seen this months ago, I wouldn't have been so confused!

 

I can see that, if this is a representative picture of what typical tutor groups look like, CC would definitely be one of those love-it-or-hate-it things, either "Oh my gosh! That is what I'd be paying for?!" OR "Oh my gosh! That is so awesome and energizing! My kids have got to get in on that!" depending on what you're looking for. Either way I think it help you get a picture of what classes are like.

[angela in ohio]

While doing a search on an entirely different topic on the boards, this thread about Classical Conversations came up:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62701&highlight=drawing+children

 

This is a thread from back in the fall that talks about review games played at CC and was hugely eye-opening. This is the kind of info I haven't been able to get from info meetings, and really gives you a "fly-on-the-wall" perspective on what classes are like. If I'd seen this months ago, I wouldn't have been so confused!

 

I can see that, if this is a representative picture of what typical tutor groups look like, CC would definitely be one of those love-it-or-hate-it things, either "Oh my gosh! That is what I'd be paying for?!" OR "Oh my gosh! That is so awesome and energizing! My kids have got to get in on that!" depending on what you're looking for. Either way I think it help you get a picture of what classes are like.

 

That would give you a picture of what some of the half hour spent on review games would entail, although there is usually a lot more variety than that, as the goal is to introduce parents to various review methods they can use at home and to get the kids excited about what they are learning. There are two other hours of class, though, that include fine arts, presentations, science experiments, and grammar introduction. Hopefullt, that should give a more complete picture. :001_smile: