SLH in ND Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 Is there anything objectionable in this book? When looking through my history notes, I saw a notation in the margin, recommend pre-reading before having kids read it. I don't who gave me that recommendation or why. From any description I've read about the book, it didn't seem like there'd be anything I'd have a problem with. Sheri :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 I have found that early teen boys find this book very boring because of the romance throughout he book. otherwise I can't think of anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In The Great White North Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 The end is the part you want to pre-read. I can't find the book right now, but I vaguely remember Mara (?) getting whipped (?) in some kind of confrontation with Hatshepsut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 There's a heated kiss near the end. Nothing described in physical details, but lots of emotions and physical feelings, flying around. As an adult, you know it's a deep, passionate kiss. My son wasn't too sure what it was all about and wasn't quite at ease with it. He read it when he wasn't quite 11 yet. Families who want to protect their kids from anything sexual would skip that part. The kiss isn't that bad, sorta like a Harlequin kiss. But for youngsters, it might not be something you want them to read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom22ns Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 There are a couple of kisses actually. It is a romance, but well done. There is also a violent, nearly deadly whipping, in the end. It was an excellent book, my ds enjoyed it in spite of the romance because of the intrigue. However, if you have a very sensitive child or you are very conservative then you may want to pre-read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pink Fairy Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 I read and enjoyed this book myself, but when I was finished I put a post it note on it that said "No one under the age of 13 may read this book." I don't remember why, exactly, but I suggest you give it a read and see what you think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLH in ND Posted June 1, 2009 Author Share Posted June 1, 2009 I'll either do it as a read-aloud, editing as necessary, to my 2 grade schoolers or better yet, I'll just wait and have them read it in 9th grade....which means oldest dd will read it this year. I'll probably go ahead and pre-read the book. She's not sensitive to violence, but I might have to discuss some of the romance stuff. I just don't like the kids seeing or reading about heated romance stuff between unmarried people. I'm assuming that's the situation in this book. Thanks again! Sheri :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 I just don't like the kids seeing or reading about heated romance stuff between unmarried people. I'm assuming that's the situation in this book. They're definitely not married when they start kissing. On the other hand, they are not christian , and lived under very different laws. This could lead to a good discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in MO Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 with a book discussion group for 5-7th grade girls. In addition to the kissing, there is a part where Mara shares that she could be more intimate with a male character - it is vague and the younger girls didn't understand what she meant. The 7th graders did, however. If you are using it as a read-aloud, you can easily skip over that sentence(s) - not sure if it was just one or not. Blessings, Julie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Anna Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 I read this one, and remember thinking that I'd have to make sure my dd's were pretty grounded in a Christian world-view before they read it because it's not written to reflect such a thing at all. The story is good, the violence at least not extraneous to the plot, and the romantic leads are at least headed toward marriage at the end, but Mara's whole life philosophy seems based on self and preserving the same. One of the major character growth parts of the book is when she actually begins to care enough about someone other than herself to try to protect her future fiance from Hatshepsut. There's no emphasis of absolute right or wrong throughout the story. (Any behavior is okay if either it helps you out or else only hurts people you've decided are "bad.") This, to me, is more objectionable for a child than either the violence or the romance. HTH! Mama Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLH in ND Posted June 1, 2009 Author Share Posted June 1, 2009 There's no emphasis of absolute right or wrong throughout the story. (Any behavior is okay if either it helps you out or else only hurts people you've decided are "bad.") This, to me, is more objectionable for a child than either the violence or the romance. HTH! Mama Anna :iagree: Thanks for adding that! Sheri :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Am I the only one uncomfortable with my child reading about "passionate kissing" before the age of sixteen, at least, and perhaps later? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLH in ND Posted June 1, 2009 Author Share Posted June 1, 2009 Am I the only one uncomfortable with my child reading about "passionate kissing" before the age of sixteen, at least, and perhaps later? NO, you are not the only one! Something happened to me when I became a mother to 3 daughters, and I have a very hard time with this type of stuff. What makes it harder, is that dh and I are on different wavelengths in what we consider appropriate for books and movies. His opinions did not change as much as mine did. Sheri :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 You're not at all "solo" on this ! Good grief, I'm even fighting against cousin and friend polluting the waters for dd with Hannah Montana, Camp Rock, and similar vacuous fare ! I remember reading Mara as a young teen, perhaps forty years ago. The implied "harder core" shot over my head. Mostly I remember recoiling from the public beating toward the end of the book. Am I the only one uncomfortable with my child reading about "passionate kissing" before the age of sixteen, at least, and perhaps later? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Anna Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Am I the only one uncomfortable with my child reading about "passionate kissing" before the age of sixteen, at least, and perhaps later? No - I am, too! But (as I recall - it's been several months since I read it), the passionate kissing is nothing like today's "romances" have in them, and since I would have been reading it aloud to my dd, I would have simply skipped or summarized that part. :) (I love the editorial power of reading aloud!) But the underlying philosophy of the book is so insidious in the story that it can't really be skipped or summarized. It's just there. Which means the book doesn't work for my school. Mama Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Okay, so maybe I have to preread it to see if it is do-able. Thanks for the further information, Anna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 But the underlying philosophy of the book is so insidious in the story that it can't really be skipped or summarized. It's just there. I find this intriguing because we liked the underlying philosophy. I don't want to critic your take on it at all, I'm just genuinely curious to see how you saw it. For us, it's the story of two people put in very harsh situations, who have never received love from others, and therefore act accordingly, in very selfish ways. We see the results of this lack of love, and how it's very important to love others to avoid those problems. When the two heroes discover love (and I don't mean romantic love, I mean caring for other human beings), they change for the better. The lack of God's presence is explained by historical/geographical reasons. And we talk about how God-less societies can become very selfish, and harsh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Anna Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I'll PM you, CleoQc. :) Mama Anna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLH in ND Posted June 2, 2009 Author Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) I'll PM you, CleoQc. :) Mama Anna No, no no! Please discuss it here! Since I'm the one who started the thread, I have the authority to tell you that you're not hijacking it! LOL :D I'd like to hear more, as well. Sheri :) Edited June 2, 2009 by SLH in ND correct typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Anna Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 No, no no! Please discuss it here! Since I'm the one who started the thread, I have the authority to tell you that you're not hijacking it! LOL :D I'd like to hear more, as well. Sheri :) Sorry, Sheri - I just feel a little pinned to the wall on this thread because people have seemed to reply to my posts instead of yours and all I've got to offer is my opinion. It's not like I'm an expert or anything - honest! (Maybe I'm just still too much of a newbie to forums to interpret everything correctly.) :) Anyway, I'll try to reiterate most of my response to CleoQc's post: For us, it's the story of two people put in very harsh situations, who have never received love from others, and therefore act accordingly, in very selfish ways. We see the results of this lack of love, and how it's very important to love others to avoid those problems. When the two heroes discover love (and I don't mean romantic love, I mean caring for other human beings), they change for the better. The lack of God's presence is explained by historical/geographical reasons. And we talk about how God-less societies can become very selfish, and harsh. - CleoQc I agree with CleoQc's representation of Mara's character. However, Senmut (if I'm remembering his name correctly) has a totally different past. A member of the higher level of society, he's portrayed as being loved by his servants/slaves, respected by the members of the military, and holding a lot of power in the government. This indicates to me that people see him as fair, upstanding, and having integrity. (That, I believe, would classify as a pure assumption. So be it! :)) Yet he sees nothing wrong with treason, using other people as tools in situations where they might need to be disposable (in other words, they might get killed because of his use of them) and murder - except that he discovers he loves the girl too much to kill her. He never seems to question the rightness of any of these actions (except the intended murder). I'd feel better if he at least doubted the rectitude of his decisions. I agree that an absence of Judeo-Christian values is very authentic in the time period of this book. (Although I'm not sure that I trust the author enough to assume that her version of right and wrong is completely authentic to the time period. It is historical fiction, after all!) And I appreciate the way that CleoQc has used this book with her dc. But given the age of my oldest dd (not yet 6yo), I prefer to use other books as discussion-starters about God. At this age, I like stories where the stuff we talk about comes from distinct actions/decisions instead of a mindset or set of values that is woven throughout the story. When she gets older, especially logic or rhetoric stage, I'll be more likely to want to take a story like this completely apart with her. "What do you think was most important to him in life?" "Is what he did right? Did he think it was? Why do you agree or disagree? Why do you think he did it?" "Is she someone you would want to hang around with? Why or why not?" "If we all lived like that, what do you think life would be like?" Etc. Wonderful discussion questions. But not for us right now. Right now I like books where the heros are people I want my dd to emulate, even if they've messed up a bit - as long as they've done their best to admit and rectify their mistakes. Does that help? Mama Anna (Hoping I haven't transgressed unwritten rules of Board politeness, etc.) :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharon H in IL Posted June 3, 2009 Share Posted June 3, 2009 Makes sense to me. It wouldn't be suitable for young kids, who need a more straightforward approach in fiction. Mara deals with revolution against the rulers, the underworld of spies, deception, and Mara is willing to participate in any and all of that in order to escape a bad situation as a slave. Her life gave her no morality other than 'look out for #1.' But she learns self-sacrifice in the course of the novel, and her horizons are forever widened. This was my all-time favorite book from 4th to 6th grades, I must have read it 10 times. It sparked an interest in all things Egyptian and led to my current love of history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afruitfulbranch Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Am I the only one uncomfortable with my child reading about "passionate kissing" before the age of sixteen, at least, and perhaps later? I've been wondering the same thing myself. Mara is recommended on so many reading lists that I ordered it for this school year. I am so glad that I decided to read it first. I was shocked, aghast, embarrassed ... I was shocked because I didn't expect the descriptive scenes; aghast because I wondered how many other books like this I just passed to my daughter not realizing to what I was exposing her; embarrassed as I read the romantic scenes. Then I started wondering, well something must be the matter with me -- everyone else loves and recommends it, what am I in an uproar about? I'm still not sure what to think. To the pure all things are pure, so maybe I'm less pure-hearted. Certainly I did not grow-up in a sheltered, Christian home and I was exposed to more in my teen years than I would want my daughters to ever be. Perhaps this is why I have such a sharp response to the questionable scenes. Or perhaps I'm just more conservative than those who recommend this book? Or maybe some who recommend it haven't really read it but just skimmed it?? At any rate, I would imagine that very, conservative homeschoolers who don't allow their children to date, who discourage kissing before marriage and who are the type to fast forward past the kissing in The Sound of Music, would definitely want to pre-read this book. That said, it was excellent for giving a feel for the times and culture, assuming that the author's presentation is accurate, which is why I believe it is so highly recommended. It will definitely enhance your understanding of Egypt during this time period. I guess the question is what is the price? It could be that what is objectionable will fly over the heads of younger readers and they'll only retain what is good. In this case, I see why others wouldn't object to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsmom3tn Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I haven't read it, but a friend of mine did. She felt it was more appropriate for age 16 and up. It was a while ago, so I don't remember the specific details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Or perhaps I'm just more conservative than those who recommend this book? Possibly. I don't tend to be conservative. I have a definite French background, and don't mind nudity at all. I mind violence a lot more than nudity and sex! Still, DS was 10 when he read it, and he blushed at the kissing scenes. Still, he has to start learning about such things, so we discussed it. Around us, school kids are *active* starting age 10. Not something I wish on my kids, but they have to be able to follow the innuendoes that those kids do all the time! YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avila Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Just to throw another 2 cents in the mix, my DD and I both hated it. We read it because it is on so many reading lists. She really didn't like the characterization of Hatshepsut, who is one of her favorite ancient Egyptians. I was surprised at the violence and romance element in a book on so many reading lists for middle schoolers. We won't be using it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afruitfulbranch Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 (edited) Possibly. I don't tend to be conservative. While I think that those who are offended with this book would tend to be more conservative, I'm rethinking that as being my reason for a difference of opinion on this book. "Conservative" has too many different connotations, many of which wouldn't apply to us. I have a definite French background, and don't mind nudity at all. I mind violence a lot more than nudity and sex! I live in Quebec also and it is definitely a different culture. So perhaps a person's cultural background would determine how and/or in what way this book would be offensive. In general, I have a problem with unnecessarily exposing my children to sex, violence, nudity, profanity, blasphemy, or anything else that would be sinful, whether it's gluttony or idolatry. This is why we don't listen to popular children's programs in which the moral of the story is often overshadowed by the characters' bad attitudes or disrespectful behavior. We are exposed to enough as we interact with others (and even our own bad attitudes) that I don't want to add to it anymore than I have to. Around us, school kids are *active* starting age 10.:iagree:Since moving here my children have been exposed to much more here than they had been before. However, most of this has been in the context of seeking to be a "light" in a dark place. They can see the wretched looks on the faces of these young, promiscuous girls as they smoke their cigarettes or pot. They see the consequences of "looking for love in all the wrong places" and the stories don't end like Mara's. In Mara, there are so many different offensive aspects in it that I can't recommend it for most families without at least a disclaimer. I'm not sure that the benefits outweigh the potential harm to my children (my girls in particular). I've considered editing it with a permanent marker but even then I don't know if it would be worth it. To be honest, I'm not sure what the underlying philosophy really is. Perhaps this is another reason for the differences of opinion. That said, I recognize that many other people, including people that I respect, appreciate the book and have learned a lot from it. I just wish that some of these reading lists that recommend the book would at least put some type of note alerting parents that there are potentially offensive parts. Thanks for bringing this up and discussing it. Edited October 27, 2009 by afruitfulbranch clarity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I loved this book when I was about 11. I don't see the kissing scenes as particularly passionate. They are JUST kissing. I think that they went over my head to a large extent, and sound more significant to me now than they did when I was a kid. The morals migrate in the direction that you would hope for...toward patriotism and love for others. I'm trying to think why I saw this so differently than most of you, and I think that it's because Hatshepsut is portrayed as the usurper of the throne and also as the one who is letting the empire drift apart as she enjoys herself; kind of like a usurper/dillettante. So then the rebels are on the 'right side' and are risking their lives idealistically, similarly to American revolutionaries (who I absolutely revered as a kid.) Mara grows from being completely selfish and amoral to being an idealistic revolutionary as well, and this is not just for love of her BF but also as she realizes that she loves her country. The book also includes an Israelite princess, and it was fascinating and exciting to me as a young Christian girl to realize that the historical fiction of this volume touched on the land of Israel and God's people. It was also interested to think about the cultural differences between Israel and Egypt at that time. Not having studied any world history, really, except for Biblical history and the Reformation period, I had been pretty hazy about the time periods when certain ancient cultures were dominant. Now, having visited the Hatshepsut exhibit at the DeYoung a few years back I have realized that the former historical view of Hatshepsut and her reign was colored by sexism and assumptions that are no longer held by current scholarship. She is now viewed as a very good and effective ruler. So I would argue against the book being reflective of current historical views, and it is not necessarily good historical fiction in that regard. But it's still a great read, and having read it as an adult before giving it to my DD, I regard the moral arc of the book as positive, although it leaves much to discuss--another good thing in my view. I recommend it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afruitfulbranch Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I see how you appreciate the book, Carol. I still don't see how the book would be recommended for homeschooling families (of which there is such a broad range, and with lots of very conservative families) without some type of notation. Often in reading lists if there is a reference book with evolutionary material in it, there would be a note, an asterik, something. There are other instances as well where I've seen a footnote. To you the kissing is "just kissing" but it's quite descriptive and would definitely be a problem for some families. Lots of stories have kissing but this one is it bit much in my opinion. If I weren’t afraid of offending I’d quote it here. Seeing how diverse the homeschooling community is, when possible, it would be good to get a heads-up, so to speak. I guess that’s what this discussion is and I am glad that I found it and to be able to hear the differing viewpoints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E_Edgerton Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I read this one aloud to the children I work with. I didn't find anything wrong with it. Occasionally, I would notice that the oldest child 12 (girl) noticed the romance a little more than the younger child 10 (boy) he liked the adventure and suspense! I liked this one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afruitfulbranch Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I read this one aloud to the children I work with. I didn't find anything wrong with it. Occasionally, I would notice that the oldest child 12 (girl) noticed the romance a little more than the younger child 10 (boy) he liked the adventure and suspense! I liked this one! How could you tell that the 12 year-old noticed it more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenNC Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Obviously, I'm going to have to go back and read this one again! I had no idea it was considered at all controversial. I still have the copy I read many, many times as a child (probably a preteen). I was raised in a *very* conservative, very Calvinist Christian household (didn't see a PG movie until I was 12 and then they were heavily restricted, no R until I was in college, would change the channel on the tv if a "parental guidance suggested" movie came on even if I was home alone so I was *very* aware of what was not allowed) and it never occurred to me that this book was problematic in the least. Now I'm really curious as to the difference between what is being said about it and what I remember. I thought the other princess was Babylonian, not Israelite?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afruitfulbranch Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I'd like to make a little concession for those who will be reading or re-reading Mara as a result of this discussion. When you pre-read this book or read it aloud knowing that there are potential issues, when you get to them they won't seem like a big deal; however, when you read it (as a parent) upon the recommendation from others who presumably are more strict and conservative than you are, the scenes are quite unexpected. At least for me they were. Karen, I would love to hear your opinion after you have reread it, especially given your background. I am not saying that it should not be recommended at all but that it should be recommended with a footnote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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