It's the same information; why do it over?

[Sandra in NC]

My son recently completed his freshman year in college. "I never thought it would be like high school-continued, but it is."

 

My son was homeschooled until 8th grade and then entered public high school. His comment then was, "This is all a repeat of middle school." Now college is a repeat of high school which is just a repeat of middle school.....

 

I am becoming more and more convinced that students should try to earn college credits while in high school -- through AP, CLEP or dual enrollment in community college-- to avoid the repeat. AP and CLEP are efficient because there is no age requirement and students can self-study.

 

Biology, Freshman English, Math....it's all the same information from high school to college. Why do it over?

[Jen500]

Where is he attending college?

[Sandra in NC]

Virginia Commonwealth University School of Art. It's a highly regarded art school in an average university.

[mcconnellboys]

I hear you. It does go faster and the science should be more in-depth, that is, include more chemistry, etc., but our school system keeps kids generalists for far too long, while at the same time bemoaning the fact that they can't decide what they want to be or focus. Hello? Wonder why?

[Jean in Wisc]

My son recently completed his freshman year in college.

 

Biology, Freshman English, Math....it's all the same information from high school to college. Why do it over?

 

Yes...my daughter says the same thing. We go round and round because not all CLEP's are accepted at all colleges. Not always is it worth the work to test out of AP's, either. My dd's boyfriend got an associate's degree at the community college, and then he was not required to take the general education classes at the university--plus he will have 2 degrees to market when he graduates--but I doubt he will be able to graduate in 2 years, so he will have spent more time getting his education. The "doing it all over again" is the most boring and frustrating part of my daughter's college experience. (That and the boys using the girls' bathroom in the dorms.)

 

???

 

Jean

[K-FL]

. . . but our school system keeps kids generalists for far too long, while at the same time bemoaning the fact that they can't decide what they want to be or focus. Hello? Wonder why?

 

:iagree: It comes down to $$$. If the dc are dual-enrolled the ps doesn't get the $$, the cc does. I think the repetition ad nauseum is a big reason so many males don't enroll in college, much less complete it.

 

Re: Jean's point on the AA & BA.

Dd#1 has finished her AA under dual enrollment so while it may take her 3 more to complete her BA, she's still ahead & you can't beat the cost (FREE.) Also, I've been told that actually completing the AA is better than just completing courses when you transfer if no matriculation agreement applies. The U is more likely to "write off" all the classes taken, where they may pick & choose more if the degree wasn't obtained.

 

Also, my niece took 3 AP classes & tests. She got the required score for 2. She said she wishes she'd just gone to the cc, taken & the classes (1x) & been guaranteed of the credit & not been out the $80 for the test. She also took 4yr of hs Spanish, but still will have to take 1 yr of college level language or social studies to graduate (& she's in a science degree) so again she would have been better off to take 2 semesters at the cc instead of 8 hs semesters.

Edited May 28, 2009 by K-FL
clairity

[mcconnellboys]

I think it was only about 3 years ago that colleges were bemoaning the fact that it's taking so long for kids to graduate that they needed some way to move them through more quickly. Accepting dual credits/AP/CLEP?testing out of basic classes all seemed to me like perfectly good ways to alleviate the bottleneck and move kids through college more quickly. PLUS, they could start to specialize in their field almost immediately upon entry to college since a lot of the more basic things would probably be what they'd chosen to already get out of the way.

 

Now fast forward to today and the economic worries. I guess most schools have seen their yearly endowment drop along with their investments. And perhaps college admissions actually aren't increasing as fast as they'd predicted, either, even for those not seeking scholarships. So all of a sudden, no one wants to even accept AP tests, etc. anymore.

 

What happened to the need to move kids through school more expeditiously???? Enrollment in the US was set to peak next year - has that all changed???? Or is all this just a matter of how best to make the most money from your customers????

 

Geesh..... It's very frustrating....

[Sandra in NC]

I've heard that Thomas Edison State College accepts almost all credit-by-exam credits and is generous with CLEP and AP (granting 6 credits where many grant only 3). It's quite possible to get an AA degree entirely with CLEP, AP, Dantes. The school is accredited.

 

When my kids were in 8th grade, if I knew what I know now, I'd have them CLEP every subject possible and work on an AA from Thomas Edison along with our high school program. I'm sorry that we didn't do CLEP along with SAT II prep. It only takes about 18 tests to get an AA degree. Of course, they both ended up going to public boarding schools in 11th grade, but they could have accumulated a lot of credits before then.

 

They'll each take a CLEP exam this summer. That will help.

 

With a Masters degree being the new Bachelors, I hate for them to waste any time in college. They'll be there a long time as it is!

[Jane in NC]

Another consideration should be the core requirements of the colleges themselves. Most schools have some sort of general distribution requirement--some quite specific, others more open. An example of the latter would be along the lines of "two courses in the natural or physical sciences". If the student has already studied biology and chemistry, why not take geology or astronomy? Or, many schools have biology courses for non-majors along the lines of population biology or ecology. The student needs to get out of his comfort zone and try something new.

 

Granted, some schools are more specific with their core requirements than other schools. But most four year colleges should offer a variety of courses and should be presenting the material with greater depth.

 

Freshmen can be at a disadvantage when registering for courses, but this can still be an opportunity to try something different. I would encourage it.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Jane in NC
trying to stay on point

[Ellie]

That is why we did c.c. instead of high school.

[QueenCat]

Interesting. My son just finished his freshman year of college at Austin Peay, in TN. An average state school. Two semesters of U.S. history are required in the core. He says that it was more about understanding why things happened, the influence of the small events on big events and digging deep in to where in history things repeated themselves. Granted, these were honors program courses. His world lit. had no repeats on what we did in high school either. Honors program too. Lit. is his strong suit. English comp was a breeze (comped the first, did the 2nd while dual enrolled). He could have comped the 2nd but since he was still in high school, and our primary goal was getting used to the classroom environment, he took the course. He hasn't taken his core science yet but the core has several different areas to choose from so it's easy to take something you're unfamiliar with. Everyone's goals are different, even within a family. We really aren't pushing for him to enter the job force or adult world early, so we didn't encourage clep or AP testing.

[Jane in NC]

Interesting. My son just finished his freshman year of college at Austin Peay, in TN....

 

Congratulations to your son. It sounds like he a successful freshman year.

 

Best regards,

Jane

[Gwen in VA]

I am literally sitting here with my mouth open. I am shocked!

 

I guess at least some of the challenge of college all depends on the college!

 

My kids are no dummies, but they are finding college to be INCREDIBLY challenging. I can think of many words to describe my kids' college experience, but boring and repetitive would NOT be among them.

 

My kids took scads of AP classes in high school and scored well, so they did get out of a FEW gen ed requirements, but even the 100-level classes have challenged them. All right, dd found microeconomics to be ridiculously easy and ds found calculus 3 and linear algebra to be totally lame, but......

 

My dd is taking her first 300-level class and is feeling like she is on a jet ski. She is having a wild ride -- and rising to the challenge. :001_smile::001_smile::001_smile:

 

But even the 100-level classes have been interesting, and the 200-level classes have been VERY challenging.

 

Words I would use to describe my kids' college experience --

 

** challenging

** excited by class discussions. Where else but at college does your son call you up talking about Greek philosophy at a million miles an hour?

** thrilling to learn all kinds of things -- for example dd's art history prof did an amazing job tying the ART part with the HISTORY part, complete with the dominant philosophy of the period. She would call me up after class occasionally just to rehash some of what she learned.

** developed new skills -- different paper types, different approaches.

** enjoying conversations with kids who have all kinds of different interests and gifts, conversations that they just can't have at home. (Including arguments that they can't have at home because we're too similar.....)

 

I am so sorry that your kids are not finding college to be intellectually stimulating. I just want to make sure that folks know that some kids at some colleges are being incredibly challenged. Not all college is just a rehash of high school -- I want to shout that from the rooftop!!!!!

 

I'll shut my mouth now. I am still amazed. I guess I assumed that that intellectual excitement and challenging classes were part of everybody's college experience.

 

Huh. I've learned somehting new today.

Edited May 29, 2009 by Gwen in VA

[Sandra in NC]

I agree that the peer group and overall college standards matter. Being surrounded by intellectual peers is probably the most important variable in whether or not class discussions are interesting/stimulating. Having lively discussions would make doing it all over again bearable.

 

When I read your post, I thought of Charles Murray's book, Real Education. He says that only the top 10-15% of students should go to universities. Everyone needs post-secondary education, but most students should focus on career-specific certifications. And what about liberal arts? He says they should be taught in high school.

 

I like his model.

 

My older son probably would have had a different experience at VCU if he had gotten into the honors program, but he didn't. When he was in high school, he was convinced that academics didn't matter - only art. As much as we tried to convince him otherwise, it was just last year that he agreed. "I HAVE TO get into the honors program."

 

My younger son is thriving at a very challenging high school. He wants to major in engineering and I am desperate for him to test out of as many introductory courses as possible so he won't be bored and disenchanted. We know which school he wants to attend, so we're able to choose AP/CLEP accordingly. The school also exempts students with a high SAT CR score from Freshman English.

[Kareni]

Another consideration should be the core requirements of the colleges themselves. Most schools have some sort of general distribution requirement--some quite specific, others more open. An example of the latter would be along the lines of "two courses in the natural or physical sciences". If the student has already studied biology and chemistry, why not take geology or astronomy? ...

 

Freshmen can be at a disadvantage when registering for courses, but this can still be an opportunity to try something different. I would encourage it.

 

Wise words here, Jane! My daughter has already taken a number of community college classes and AP classes, but she'll be starting college as a freshman this coming fall. While she may be able to pass out of a course or two, we're not concerned if she has to duplicate say a beginning composition class. With a skill like writing, there's almost always room for improvement. Even at the community college, each instructor uses different materials so one could probably improve one's skills and not be bored simply by retaking the course with a different instructor. And, as you say, in the sciences there are fields into which she hasn't even dipped a toe (if you'll forgive the mixed metaphor)!

 

 

 

Words I would use to describe my kids' college experience --

 

** challenging

** excited by class discussions. Where else but at college does your son call you up talking about Greek philosophy at a million miles an hour?

** thrilling to learn all kinds of things -- for example dd's art history prof did an amazing job tying the ART part with the HISTORY part, complete with the dominant philosophy of the period. She would call me up after class occasionally just to rehash some of what she learned.

** developed new skills -- different paper types, different approaches.

** enjoying conversations with kids who have all kinds of different interests and gifts, conversations that they just can't have at home. (Including arguments that they can't have at home because we're too similar.....)

 

 

 

Gwen,

 

This is what I hope for my daughter in college in the years ahead. I'm glad your children have found such an exciting fit!

 

Regards,

Kareni

[Renee in NC]

I wish *I* had experienced that kind of college environment. I went to a cc, a private school, and a state school and faced very few challenging classes. I can think of maybe 5 at one of the above colleges, and 2 at the distance school where I finally graduated. I had very few stimulating conversations and was never excited by a course, despite the fact that I love to learn new things.

[Jane in NC]

I wish *I* had experienced that kind of college environment. I went to a cc, a private school, and a state school and faced very few challenging classes. I can think of maybe 5 at one of the above colleges, and 2 at the distance school where I finally graduated. I had very few stimulating conversations and was never excited by a course, despite the fact that I love to learn new things.

 

Although I attended a small LAC, there were plenty of courses that allowed me to challenge my myself, things that I never saw in high school like art history and philosophy. I was not an English major, but I took an English course for fun almost every semester, things like Metaphysical Poetry, Shakespeare or History of the Novel. My cultural geography course was not hard, but it inspired me to read a stack of five or six books by people like E.F. Schumacher (Small is Beautiful: Economics as if People Mattered) and the post-Malthusean book, Limits to Growth. My crowd was definitely looking for new solutions to issues so we had many perhaps naive but emotionally charged conversations between and after class.

 

Perhaps this unfolded because I sought out a truly liberal arts experience and also made friends with people who were doing something similar. But I know a number of people who never felt what I felt. My brother in law attended my college during part of the time I was there. He went to campus for his coursework (business related major), then went to work or studied at home. I lived in the library, attended evening lectures and foreign/independent films, had coffee with a couple of my professors regularly.

 

Participation in the non-credit aspects of college (clubs, lectures, music, hot button discussions) are as valuable as the in-class aspects for me. Our small CC recognizes this and, to its credit, has been attempting to add a number of extra-curriculars beyond sports. My son particularly enjoyed the international food fair that was held this year.

 

Some parents look at the cost of a credit hour as the deciding factor of a college. I have yet to come up with a formula for determining the value of these out of class experiences.

 

Jane

Edited May 30, 2009 by Jane in NC

[Renee in NC]

Jane, you have probably nailed it. I couldn't participate in anything outside of class because I had a 2yo and a job (to pay for the 2yo lol.) I bet if I hadn't had to work, didn't have to limit my courses to the required, and was able to participate in more extracurriculars I might have enjoyed it more. The only interaction I really had with other students was between classes. I couldn't go to the library often because of my ds either.