Green ??'s

[Peek a Boo]

Woah. Lots of ground covered in such a short question.

 

A discussion like this has a way of sending me reeling. There is so much I wish I knew, so much to understand, and so many layers and layers of history, highhandedness, and hypocrisy that I am overwhelmed before I even wade in.

 

well sure --that's one of the things i said earlier: the numbers of variables that can kick in and negate things is astounding. No hipwaders needed, everyone just has to use their entire brain.

that the study which found so much wrong with reusable bags was sponsored by the Canadian Plastics Industry Association. I would venture to bet that clothing, carpeting, and the family cat harbor as many bacteria as Mr. Sporometrics discovered in reusable bags. Nothing like throwing the baby out with the bath water!

 

is the study flawed or inaccurate? seems pretty easy to check up on.

we can start examining which company/organization is funding the articles touting the success of green issues too while we're at it. there's a lot to be said for "follow the funding" but that's a two-way street.

I'm pretty sure that most people aren't carrying food in their clothing or eating off the carpet or cat. In fact, thanks to those carpet, clothing, and cat studies [you don't have to venture] many people are VERY picky about those items and DO decide to go all-hardwood, catless, or use only certain clothing.

 

Who said to throw the baby out w/ the bathwater??

 

Anyone can do whatever they want and [as Kelli mentioned] meet their own personal goals for environmental stewardship. There are certainly some things that are going to be more effective than others, and pointing out the inefficiencies should spur us on to make them MORE efficient so we aren't wallowing in something that has little real benefit in the long run than what we've been doing w/o it.

 

Unfortunately, I hear a LOT from the environmental movement to bury any concerns instead of saying yeah, it's not efficient yet --but w/ your help, it can be --any ideas?? By the way, be sure to clean those reusable bags [and your purse] so you aren't creating an additional safety concern.

 

i mean, come on, this kind of stuff gets old and obvious after awhile.

 

when i saw the article about the bags being germy, i sent it to my friends because even tho i don't care about MY bags I know they aren't as healthy or strong as our own family. It seems like a neighborly concern, not a germ freak paranoia.

 

So this:

 

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1725975-4,00.html

 

And this (including the embedded link to the full article):

 

http://www.ifpri.org/pubs/speeches/20090306jvbtaas.asp

 

"...reduce market volatility"

 

no kidding.

 

politics???

How much food has been WASTED sitting in ports while ethnic cleansing is going on??

can you say Oil for Food scandal?

 

i do agree that articles like this are just the tip of the iceberg.

[Garga]

Today I did not carry enough totes and the bagger at Wal-Mart put one tank top in a plastic bag, one pair of flip flops in another and two bottles of shampoo in another.

 

 

That drives me NUTS when baggers do that. I figure they've had "bagger" training. They're probably told not to mix clothing with other things so that the clothing doesn't get stained or marked and they don't get complaints. That's the only logic I can find in some of their weird bagging practices. Does anyone know if my "Bag School" theory is true?

 

I use the reusable bags, but because they're sooo much easier to carry. I can put 2 gallons of milk in a bag and easily carry it. One gallon of milk in a plastic bag digs into my fingers.

 

I also like it that my reusable bags are quiet. There's not all that plastic noise. (Yes, it's a simple thing, but important to me.)

 

And as far as those dirty bags, everything is filthy when you do microscopic studies on it. Throw them in the wash every few months and be done with it. The one load of laundry that the bags go in will be fine. Use some vinegar.

[Kelli in TN]

 

And as far as those dirty bags, everything is filthy when you do microscopic studies on it. Throw them in the wash every few months and be done with it. The one load of laundry that the bags go in will be fine. Use some vinegar.

 

:iagree:

 

 

That is what I was trying to say about purses, but it was misunderstood.:rolleyes:

 

I do think if we worry about everything that won't pass muster under a microscope we are going to be worried all the time.

[FlockOfSillies]

I'm not perfect (I also take a plane ride about once a year), but I try. I used to tell myself that home recycling didn't matter... I was wrong. Everyting matters.

 

See, this is what bugs me so much about the environmental movement as a whole. We've got people apologizing for flying on an airplane once a year. These days the only "sins" are eating certain foods and paying insufficient attention to the potential environmental impact of every single flippin' thing we do. It's insane to me -- ascribing moral value to things based on "greenness."

 

I'm not convinced that everything matters. Not everything matters equally, at the very least.

[FlockOfSillies]

I love that statement. I have a 16 year old potbellied pig. I couldn't imagine feeding/fattening up old Wilbur!

 

I think most people hop on the "it sounds great" bandwagon of organic & environmental ideas ... but never stop to think what it means. Conservation is smart & practical. However, much of the GREEN issue involves arguments are emotion- led, "rah-rah" agreements, and spend little time thinking it through.

 

I saw a man advocating only buying "in season produce" to save the environment b/c no jets or ships would be needed to bring goods from Peru or Chili.... have he considered the consequences of that statement at all. How is the growing season in North Dakota for winter veges? Thank goodness we can fly up apples & tomatos. What about the farmers and their livelihoods? He also advocated living with special water pumping sytems and solar panels. GREAT if you live way out with lots of space... but not so good in areas that get huge amts of rainfall/cloud cover (very inconsistent - even with good batteries, etc) or areas with much congestion & crowding.

 

Did you see the graduate student with the super environmental house? It was one room & she has to shower at another persons house. Does she use a chamber pot or run next door? Awful, third world standards. She had a cooler & no fridge. How can I handle 3 kids and a hubby living by these suggested great ideas? I loved that she used salvaged materials... but come on, I am not living in a box.

 

If they enjoys this, I think it is great for THEM. But I get tired of folks in this mindset trying to MANDATE this life for me. I grow some veges... but am not interested in row crops & milking my own cow. No thanks.

 

 

Oh yeah... can't have the cow or a sheep... they pass too much gas and are destroying the environment too!

 

:iagree: During the '80s, the same people who railed against "conspicuous consumption" are the leaders of "conspicuous 'eco'nsumption." The whole "greener than thou" movement makes me green around the gills.

 

Half of the green emphasis going on today is because it's trendy, and companies of every stripe are hyping the "greenness" of their products because their market research people have told them to position themselves from that angle.

[Peek a Boo]

That is what I was trying to say about purses, but it was misunderstood.:rolleyes:

 

I do think if we worry about everything that won't pass muster under a microscope we are going to be worried all the time.

 

No one's saying to be WORRIED --they are just saying to be SAFE. Some people DO have to worry about those microscopic yeasts, molds, and bacteria. It's a simple matter of Love thy Neighbor.

 

While YOU are diligent about how your food is packaged, not everyone else is. Have you ever watched people in line at WalMart on a busy day? The way some customers handle their food defies logic.

And as far as those dirty bags, everything is filthy when you do microscopic studies on it. Throw them in the wash every few months and be done with it. The one load of laundry that the bags go in will be fine. Use some vinegar.

 

YES!!

 

But if you don't bother TELLING people that and instead BURY it or shrug it off as "duh" then you end up w/ a public safety issue on your hands. Why do you think that even NOW we still have to have huge public awareness movements just to WASH your HANDS??

 

But it seems that in the interest of guarding the Holy Green Grail of reusable bags then they are exempt from warning the public about proper use. that's insane.

[Peek a Boo]

Not everything matters equally, at the very least.

 

:iagree:

[creekland]

Another for what it's worth... Watch the Mythbusters episode on double dipping (chips in dip and salsa). They found the salsa had significant amounts of bacteria BEFORE anyone touched it. It came from the bowls it was put in and who knows what else... They ended up irradiating everything to get a zero baseline from which to do their experiment.

 

People can very easily be too germophobic - and they aren't just on purses, carpets, and cats. Personally, I don't give a hoot - and we still aren't sick all that often. Immunity is a good thing...

 

Studies have shown that kids raised without animals are more likely to get the allergies people are so afraid of...

 

Unless one has a compromised immune system or has a medical issue (cut, childbirth, etc), being too clean is not a good thing - from birth on - regardless of how one feels about the green issue.

 

I agree that being sensibly green is good - going overboard is not for us - though I still want clean air, clean water, and pristine places...

 

I was happy to read (a couple weeks ago) that it improved significantly with the last administration and hope it continues with this one. Changes made have been making a difference.

[Greta]

I am not following you. There is a huge difference between a money making scam for re-usable grocery bags and earth friendly paint, diapers, cars etc., and a utility supplying power. I have no problem paying for air-conditioning, but I would have a major problem with the government forcing me to use recyclable grocery bags.

 

Hey, I like my air conditioner (well, actually, swamp cooler) as much as the next person, so I do understand where you're coming from. But what I meant is that you see the entire green movement as being money-driven, but can't you see that the anti-green sentiments are money-driven? The green movement is a challenge to the American way of life: consumption and consumerism. "Reduce" and "reuse" are messages that companies do NOT want their customers to receive. And no, I'm not picking on the utility companies in particular here. Have you noticed how many products that used to be built to last are now basically disposable? I have a lovely old antique sewing machine, because there is no way I could buy a new one that even comes close to the same quality and durability. This machine is over sixty years old, and it works better than the new models. Something is wrong with this picture. And it's certainly not limited to sewing machines, but household appliances in general, electronics, even cars are designed to have lots of attractive bells and whistles, but not to have dependability and long-term reliability. The idea is to get you to buy as much and as often as possible.

 

And as far as a "money making scam" regarding reusable shopping bags, let's not forget that the retailers have figured the cost of all those disposable bags into the price tag of the goods you're buying. It's not like they're free!

 

I'm just saying that money as motive is not something that you can, in fairness, apply only to the "green" side of the debate. That's a knife that cuts both ways.

 

Now as to your husband's job, I have to say that I have a tremendous respect and appreciation for what he does! When I was visiting my family earlier this year, the little town just south of them was devastated by a tornado. Because the tornado had crossed the road that my parents live on, just a mile south of their house, their power was out. But the little town that had suffered a direct hit was so bad off (8 people killed, many more hospitalized, widespread damage) we assumed it would be at least a couple of days before power was restored to the relatively unpopulated out-lying areas. But we were wrong. Crews drove in that night from the nearest city, two hours away, and worked all night and the next morning to get the power back on about 18 hours after the tornado hit. I was amazed, and wished I could give those guys a hug and a 'thank you'! :D

Edited May 30, 2009 by GretaLynne
typo

[Elaine]

Hey, I like my air conditioner (well, actually, swamp cooler) as much as the next person, so I do understand where you're coming from. But what I meant is that you see the entire green movement as being money-driven, but can't you see that the anti-green sentiments are money-driven? The green movement is a challenge to the American way of life: consumption and consumerism. "Reduce" and "reuse" are messages that companies do NOT want their customers to receive. And no, I'm not picking on the utility companies in particular here. Have you noticed how many products that used to be built to last are now basically disposable? I have a lovely old antique sewing machine, because there is no way I could buy a new one that even comes close to the same quality and durability. This machine is over sixty years old, and it works better than the new models. Something is wrong with this picture. And it's certainly not limited to sewing machines, but household appliances in general, electronics, even cars are designed to have lots of attractive bells and whistles, but not to have dependability and long-term reliability. The idea is to get you to buy as much and as often as possible.

 

And as far as a "money making scam" regarding reusable shopping bags, let's not forget that the retailers have figured the cost of all those disposable bags into the price tag of the goods you're buying. It's not like they're free!

 

I'm just saying that money as motive is not something that you can, in fairness, apply only to the "green" side of the debate. That's a knife that cuts both ways.

 

Now as to your husband's job, I have to say that I have a tremendous respect and appreciation for what he does! When I was visiting my family earlier this year, the little town just south of them was devastated by a tornado. Because the tornado had crossed the road that my parents live on, just a mile south of their house, their power was out. But the little town that had suffered a direct hit was so bad off (8 people killed, many more hospitalized, widespread damage) we assumed it would be at least a couple of days before power was restored to the relatively unpopulated out-lying areas. But we were wrong. Crews drove in that night from the nearest city, two hours away, and worked all night and the next morning to get the power back on about 18 hours after the tornado hit. I was amazed, and wished I could give those guys a hug and a 'thank you'! :D

 

First of all, thanks! :001_smile:

 

Second, I see your point, thanks for explaining.

 

The "recycle or kill the planet" mentality here where I am in is maddening. It bugs me because it's trendy. I know more people who "go green" simply because it's the cool thing to do and not because they believe in an eco-friendly way of life. The same people who use the recyclable bags are the same ones who leave their cars running while the get a movie from the Red Box. LOL!

 

I am all for reusing. I buy and sell from Craig's list. I shop in consignment stores. I wash out ziploc bags and reuse tin foil. We repair our appliances and maintain our vehicles. I am really not looking to destroy the earth.;)

 

I do the best I can. I just have authority issues and I don't like being told what to do or how to live.:lol:

[Greta]

I know more people who "go green" simply because it's the cool thing to do and not because they believe in an eco-friendly way of life. The same people who use the recyclable bags are the same ones who leave their cars running while the get a movie from the Red Box. LOL!

 

:lol: I definitely see what you mean! I have a dear friend who drives a big SUV and lives pretty far outside of the city. When gas was up to $4 per gallon here, she said it had really hurt her family financially and they were going to have to be a lot more conservative with their gas usage. One day, we both dropped our kiddos off for a science program and went out to brunch together. She drove, and after the brunch we drove around aimlessly for 20 minutes. Then we went back to where we had dropped our kids off, and got there too early. Instead of sitting at their nice shaded picnic tables to chat, she wanted to sit in the car's air-conditioning to chat. And it wasn't even hot! So all together, we spent about 40 minutes running her engine for no reason. I guess people have very different ideas of what conserving means, whether they're talking about money or resources or anything else!

 

I am all for reusing. I buy and sell from Craig's list. I shop in consignment stores. I wash out ziploc bags and reuse tin foil. We repair our appliances and maintain our vehicles. I am really not looking to destroy the earth.;)

 

Hey, you're a lot more green than you admit to! :D

 

And I'm a lot less green than I could be. :blush:

 

Thanks for your kind response! :cheers2:

[FlockOfSillies]

"God made dirt, and dirt won't hurt." LOL.

[Peek a Boo]

The idea is to get you to buy as much and as often as possible.

 

 

not necessarily.

 

sewing machines are an exception, not the rule.

 

many useful everyday items that old are obsolete.

 

When they are making HUGE strides in electronics every month, it is common knowledge that the appliance you bought 3 years ago is likely not as energy efficient as what they have now, and you may literally save the cost of the new appliance in energy usage by upgrading. And computers? those become obsolete very quickly [ours is considered "old" and it's less than 10 years old!].

Vehicles and emissions controls, appliances and energy regulations, electronic gadgets and applicability.... all those have actual reasons for moving into new product. how much lead is in your sewing machine?

 

Now the cheap plastic junk? well, that's just cuz our gvt has been too cowardly to tell China to kiss off. i might vote for Obama a second term if he would do that, lol!!

[momto2Cs]

That drives me NUTS when baggers do that. I figure they've had "bagger" training. They're probably told not to mix clothing with other things so that the clothing doesn't get stained or marked and they don't get complaints. That's the only logic I can find in some of their weird bagging practices. Does anyone know if my "Bag School" theory is true?

 

 

Well, I know at the grocery store (I work at one) baggers are trained to keep food seperate from anything else, and if someone buys an itenm of clothing, it is bagged by itself (or with other clothing) to keep it from getting stained etc. So you're correct!

[mcconnellboys]

Gee, I don't know, LOL..... Live longer, in less pain? When I compare my 101 year old grandmother to my 74 year old mother and my 49 year old self, I see what the processed food craze has done to us over the course of my lifetime.....