Repeat algebra in 9th or move on to geometry?

[Colleen]

I am on the fence as to what my oldest (rising 9th grader) should do this next year for math. He is currently in Chapter 8 (of 9 chapters) in Lial's Intro Algebra. In general he's done well with the course, typically earning right around 90% on tests. For some reason I really can't put my finger on, though, I keep feeling like the material hasn't completely soaked in. He's a young 8th grader (not yet 14), and I kinda feel like I rushed him into algebra, but as I say, it's not that he's flat out struggled. I just don't want to march ahead to geometry unless he's really ready for it, kwim?

 

This fall, he may take math through a local homeschool academy and I need to decide about classes fairly soon for registration purposes. If he repeats algebra, he'll use Jacobs Elementary Algebra this time around. Otherwise, he'll move on to geometry and use Jacobs Geometry.

 

Any thoughts? Thanks!

[kathleen]

Having dealt with a similar situation, I went with repeating algebra. Especially if he will use Jacobs, that's what I would do. I have never regretted the decision, nor has my son. He was "good" at math, but it wasn't his strong suit, but having that extra year of algebra under his belt really helped him understand geometry, and super-duper really helped him score high on his SAT math (though that wasn't the reason we did it).

 

Hope that helps a bit.

 

~Kathleen

[Jann in TX]

I vote for repeating--if there are any doubts. If he is scoring that well on the Lial tests then he is probably ready to move on...but Geometry and Algebra 2 both take a bit of maturity...

 

By re-taking Algebra in a different format he will be WELL grounded and that extra year will make Geometry AND Algebra 2 easier to understand.

 

I actually PREFER Algebra 1 in 9th grade--again that one year of maturity makes a HUGE difference!

 

Jann

[Jill- OK]

...to have my kids take algebra until 9th grade.

 

Just *in case* there was some logic that still needed to be developed. :tongue_smilie:

 

I'd say trust your gut. If you feel that he'd do better with another year in algebra (and from another source), then, do it.

 

There are times when kids can see/understand something, in a particular presentation, without totally 'getting it'. Is that possibly what you're feeling? That he gets their explanations and ensuing problem sets, but might not be really confident in the subject, as a whole?

 

If that's your suspicion, or if you simply feel he needs some more maturity, then I'd not think twice about having him repeat it with a difference source, next year. He can still get through Calculus or Pre-Calculus, by taking Alg. in 9th--depending on what programs you use--if that's a concern.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I am glad I trusted my gut. I had ds use Systematic Mathematics and feel much more confident about his ability.

 

One option you can do is to let him take the geometry still, but still redo the algebra. The second go-round will probably solidify things for him but he won't be held back since he does have the skills necessary for geometry.

[Kareni]

 

One option you can do is to let him take the geometry still, but still redo the algebra. The second go-round will probably solidify things for him but he won't be held back since he does have the skills necessary for geometry.

 

I think I'd vote for continuing on to Geometry (unless he would rather repeat Algebra this coming year). One advantage of Jacobs' Geometry is that it (at least the 3rd edition) does contain Algebra review. I think at the end of the coming year, you could then decide whether he should do a thorough review of Algebra I or move ahead into Algebra II.

 

But, the decision is not mine! Best wishes making your choice.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[LUV2EDU]

If you feel he needs a little more practice, you can have him practice with ALEKS http://www.aleks.com/ over the summer.

[Colleen]

Thanks for the replies thus far. I am truly torn over this one! My gut feeling is that spending another year on algebra would do him a world of good. I've casually mentioned this to him and he sounded a bit discouraged/frustrated at the prospect, but I think a different text and a "real" teacher (*smile*) will give him fresh perspective. Then, too, the website for the homeschool academy suggests that more maturity can only help students as they tackle algebra and geometry. (It also notes, btw, that "Students who have taken an art class that includes sketching and perspective drawing will often perform half to one letter grade better in this class [geometry]."

 

Looking ahead, I'm also considering how I'll change things up for my second son, who right now is headed down the same path my oldest followed. He's finishing 5th grade and Singapore 6B and next year will go through Lial's BCM. I will have to decide after that what I want him to do for 7th and 8th because I'd prefer to hold off on algebra until 9th this time around. Any ideas from you experts (e.g. Jann?:)) I am actually feeling like less is more as far as math is concerned right around that age (12/13)...

[EKS]

I think I'd vote for continuing on to Geometry (unless he would rather repeat Algebra this coming year). One advantage of Jacobs' Geometry is that it (at least the 3rd edition) does contain Algebra review. I think at the end of the coming year, you could then decide whether he should do a thorough review of Algebra I or move ahead into Algebra II.

 

 

:iagree:

[4wildberrys]

I vote for repeating--if there are any doubts. If he is scoring that well on the Lial tests then he is probably ready to move on...but Geometry and Algebra 2 both take a bit of maturity...

 

By re-taking Algebra in a different format he will be WELL grounded and that extra year will make Geometry AND Algebra 2 easier to understand.

 

I actually PREFER Algebra 1 in 9th grade--again that one year of maturity makes a HUGE difference!

 

Jann

 

Sorry to get off the op's topic/question---but Jann, WHY are so many schools pushing Algebra 1 in 8th if the maturity makes such a difference? :confused: Your post makes me feel 'much' better for slowing down my ds---I had started him in TT Alg1 in 6th because he tested into it, but my gut told me the concepts were way too abstract and that I should wait---but I felt guilty 'holding him back' :tongue_smilie: I am just curious why there seems to be SO much pressure these days to get kids moving along faster when most probably aren't ready to......

[Jackie in AR]

Sorry to get off the op's topic/question---but Jann, WHY are so many schools pushing Algebra 1 in 8th if the maturity makes such a difference? :confused: . . . . . . . I am just curious why there seems to be SO much pressure these days to get kids moving along faster when most probably aren't ready to......

 

I'm curious about this, too. Is it because the PSAT must be taken in the fall of 11th grade to qualify for a National Merit Scholarship, and you should have Algebra 2 under your belt before taking it?

 

I've heard many parents lament the fact that Algebra 1 is now considered the *norm* for 8th grade.

[langfam]

What about letting him do geometry 4 days a week, and on the 5th day, do algebra review by working through the review sections of Lial's, finding weak areas and reviewing those sections. Alternatively, working through geometry and supplementing with Life of Fred Beginning Algebra. Just some thoughts.

[MBM]

Why not do a review of Algebra I and begin Geometry concurrently if he's motivated to do so?

[Myra]

My son did Jacob's Geometry in grade 8 for 4 days a week and on the 5th day he did the Teaching Company's Algebra I DVDs (which used the graphing calculator so that's a different slant for us.) It worked out really well for us!

 

Myra

[sagira]

I agree with the three previous posters. Algebra can be reviewed concurrently with Geometry.

[Storm Bay]

Colleen, We did just that. My dd had a 90 percent average in Algebra 1 with Lial's and we've been redoing it with a different text. Granted, she's in grade 8 now, but it's been good for her. I got by it because she hopes to get a full academic scholarship and I told her that I even though she had a good average, she'd probably need a better one.

 

First, she's done better in a couple of challenging areas. Second, she's more mature now, and really works to check her answers and be sure she's done them correctly. Mostly, I just feel a lot more comfortable with her moving onto Geometry now. fwiw, I plan on having each of my other dc do Algebra 1 twice with different methods because I'm so happy with this.

[Pamela H in Texas]

fwiw, I plan on having each of my other dc do Algebra 1 twice with different methods because I'm so happy with this.

 

I took Algebra I twice. Because of a difference in my daughter's schooling, she ended up doing ALL upper maths with two programs. And now my son also has done 2 Algebra programs (after two pre-algebra programs). ALL of us are math people but I really think there are benefits to this.

 

And it doesn't have to slow a student down terribly. I still was ready for Calc in 12th grade. My daughter took Pre-Calc through Calc II at 15/16yrs old. My son will finish Algebra II in 10th grade.

 

But even if it did slow them down, I think it's worth it. The benefits of a solid upper math foundation matter for various reasons.

[rhrice3]

Colleen,

I have struggled with this question, and I was so happy to see your post. My dd has been doing Chalkdust without DVD's - just Mom - this year. Although she has a 90 average, I just don't feel in my gut that she is ready to move on to Geometry. We have spent this school year traveling back and forth to Florida where my husband now works, so we have had a lot of interruptions with a week out of every month spent in Florida. We are moving in 2 weeks. YEA!

 

A friend loaned me the newest Alg I with DVD's and my dd has been watching them. I think that what I will do is start school early like we used to do, and I will start her on Alg I taking the test of the first few chapters since they are usually review. Then we will move as quickly as she can through the rest of the book with the DVD's, and we can possibly start Geo next spring.

 

I remember years ago dd had trouble about this time of year with long division. I beat myself up over it and we did 100's of problems. Then a wise home school mom said "Sounds like it is time for summer." So we did other stuff to finish the math book. In the fall, dd "got" long division and short division in one sitting. I think that as home school moms we have to follow our "gut" sometime.

 

Someone suggested doing review over summer. I don't know about you and your son, but we need a break this summer more than ever!

 

Good luck

ReneeR

[Colleen]

 

I agree with the three previous posters. Algebra can be reviewed concurrently with Geometry.

Yes, it can be, but math is not his passion and he would be less than pleased to go this route. He'll have a lot on his plate this next year, and I'd prefer not to go this route.

 

[Pamela H in Texas]

I was thinking about the other poster's suggestion of having him do the Geometry since he does HAVE Algebra I skills. Then at the end of next year, you can reevaluate to decide whether he needs a whole 'nother ALgebra I program OR is mature enough that the review at the beginning of Algebra II is enough.

 

But I still like the idea of a second program, even if less than a year. I just think there are benefits to more than one upper math. I'm stuck on the idea :)

 

If it were me, with a young rising 9th grader, it just would come down to the kid.

[Jennifer in MI]

Hi Colleen! Here you are! I've missed you.

 

My oldest is currently in this same situation. He took algebra starting last year. He averaged about 88%, so not terrible. But, I really felt he needed more review to completely solidify the concepts so he won't struggle in later maths. He went through TT Algebra because I heard it was good for young students. Now, he's making his way through Lial's and not having any problems with it at all (he definately had problems when we tried Lial's before TT!). So, the extra year of algebra has been very good for him.

 

After reading your second post about how math isn't his passion, I think repeating algebra with a different format is an even better idea. Is this his first outside class? It could be very good for him to be familiar with the information presented while getting used to a different teacher.

[Colleen]

Jann, WHY are so many schools pushing Algebra 1 in 8th if the maturity makes such a difference?

 

I'm curious about this, too. Is it because the PSAT must be taken in the fall of 11th grade to qualify for a National Merit Scholarship, and you should have Algebra 2 under your belt before taking it?

 

I've heard many parents lament the fact that Algebra 1 is now considered the *norm* for 8th grade.

 

One does wonder. Jann? What say you?

 

(Btw, in the very ho-hum school district I attended, Algebra 1 in 8th was the norm, followed by Geometry in 9th. But I hear a lot of people saying Alg 1 in 9th was the norm back in their day.)

[katilac]

My oldest will be in pre-algebra next year for 6th grade, and I definitely would prefer that she not take algebra I in 7th grade.

 

She's always done more than one math program each year, usually Saxon/Singapore with a few random things thrown in. The majority of her mistakes are careless computation errors, which leads me to think that she needs more time before the fussiness of algebra.

 

My plan at the moment for middle school math is to take two years and combine Saxon Algebra 1/2 and Right Start geometry, with planned breaks of two to three weeks throughout the year to work on math challenges and math projects. Deeper rather than faster, and algebra gets moved to 8th grade.

 

That doesn't help your current decision, but might give you some thoughts for the next one.

[Jane in NC]

Sorry to get off the op's topic/question---but Jann, WHY are so many schools pushing Algebra 1 in 8th if the maturity makes such a difference? :confused: Your post makes me feel 'much' better for slowing down my ds---I had started him in TT Alg1 in 6th because he tested into it, but my gut told me the concepts were way too abstract and that I should wait---but I felt guilty 'holding him back' :tongue_smilie: I am just curious why there seems to be SO much pressure these days to get kids moving along faster when most probably aren't ready to......

 

Not Jann but I'll chime in if I may. Schools today feel The Rush To Calculus, thus expedite the curriculum by beginning their math sequence in 8th with Alg I, Geometry in 9th, etc.

 

Some students are ready to go with Algebra I in 8th. My son had no problems with that course or geometry in 9th. He hit his wall in 10th not with the Algebra II material but with the trig that was in the second half of the course. When we revisited the material this year (11th) in the Dolciani Analysis book, he had no difficulty.

 

This is the way math goes sometimes. The first exposure creates more perplexity than understanding, but things come together on the second (or third) go around.

 

Mental maturity is one issue that can challenge our Algebra I students. Another is lack of what I will call lack of systematics. There are students who have done a great deal of their math work in their heads or as chicken scratching in margins. When they reach a point in algebra or geometry where more work must be written so that the student can see the logical flow, he is incapable of organizing and demonstrating his thought process. I encourage you to think of writing math as writing sentences and paragraphs. If your student claims two things are equal, they better be equal. (Students often do something to one side of an equation, then eventually a miracle occurs to make things equal later in the problem.) Students need to learn to use parentheses. They should label things on graphs (not every increment but enough for the reader to understand the graph.) Students should learn to draw pictures for simple word problems so they'll know how to draw pictures for complex word problems.

 

Twelve and thirteen year olds grumble about these things but they pay off in the long run.

 

Best,

Jane

[Colleen]

Schools today feel The Rush To Calculus, thus expedite the curriculum by beginning their math sequence in 8th with Alg I, Geometry in 9th, etc.

The irony being, the vast majority of students don't even need to take calculus.

 

Some students are ready to go with Algebra I in 8th. My son had no problems with that course or geometry in 9th. He hit his wall in 10th not with the Algebra II material but with the trig that was in the second half of the course.

Exactly what happened to me way-back-when. And since I had no choice but to struggle along, my understanding of and interest in the subject dwindled dramatically from there on out.

 

Mental maturity is one issue that can challenge our Algebra I students. Another is lack of what I will call lack of systematics. There are students who have done a great deal of their math work in their heads or as chicken scratching in margins. When they reach a point in algebra or geometry where more work must be written so that the student can see the logical flow, he is incapable of organizing and demonstrating his thought process. I encourage you to think of writing math as writing sentences and paragraphs. If your student claims two things are equal, they better be equal. (Students often do something to one side of an equation, then eventually a miracle occurs to make things equal later in the problem.) Students need to learn to use parentheses. They should label things on graphs (not every increment but enough for the reader to understand the graph.) Students should learn to draw pictures for simple word problems so they'll know how to draw pictures for complex word problems.

 

Twelve and thirteen year olds grumble about these things but they pay off in the long run.

These are great points, Jane; thanks for sharing them. I must give my oldest credit and say he's never taken issue with writing out his work ~ and his impeccably neat writing is a teacher's dream. My middle child will be a whole 'nother story!:tongue_smilie: