Time for: If I knew then what I know now about LA...

[Lovedtodeath]

Sound Beginnings and WRTR which I love but am not sure that all those other phonics programs were bad, I wore them out too.

When you say that you loved SG... do you mean Sound Beginnings?

 

Could you weigh in on my post here: #21 ?

[Strawberry Queen]

FLL is really scaring me. So much to do and memorize so early, plus I can't seem to do FLL and WWE both, and I feel like WWE is more important.

 

I just wanted to pop in and say that FLL is really easy for the first 2 levels. It has taken me maximum 20 min. in a lesson. Those would be the lessons with lots of chatting about the story we read for narration. Most of the time it's more like 5-10 min.

The memorization of definitions and lists has really been painless. I'm not kidding! They actually like doing it and I can see that my older dd has an easier time with grammar because of it. One bonus for my second dd was that she had already heard the poems and definitions that she has had less work. ;)

 

It's hard to figure it all out in the beginning but you seem to have figured out the reading thing just fine, so you'll do great at making sense of the rest of it.:)

 

HTH

[Lovedtodeath]

It's hard to figure it all out in the beginning but you seem to have figured out the reading thing just fine, so you'll do great at making sense of the rest of it.:)

 

HTH

 

Your supportive words help a lot! Thank you.

[rafiki]

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[Lovedtodeath]

was always told to focus on the skill of handwriting during handwriting and spelling during spelling, etc. so you're not correcting their handwriting on their spelling worksheet and they can focus on the skill being taught. So when is it "safe" to discontinue a handwriting program and where do you draw the line when correcting handwriting errors in non handwriting practice exercise?

 

Good point. I am gravitating toward continuing with a handwriting course for quite some time.

 

 

Phonics and spelling. Phonics seems to be something most do to get their children up and reading books beyond the "I Can Read It series", then stop and go to spelling. Doesn't the child still need continual instruction on reading fluency and proficiency? This is why I am drawn to Megawords. My oldest (now 9) learned to read with SWR, then I had him continue to read the SL readers to me until he reached 3rd grade and was in the SL 4th level books. Now he reads aloud occasionally as part of history or science. Megawords has reading fluency and proficiency exercises, although he's several books ahead in MW for reading compared to spelling. I guess I need to look at OPGTR next time we're at B&N and see what level that goes through. Is it comparable to the ETC series?

 

Still pondering what I'll do differently with my youngest who will be in K.

 

OPGTR is a great resource. It completes phonics, 3-4 years worth in one book meant to be done over 2 years. I do not have DD read out of OPG, but use it more as a TM. Just b/c you see so many switching to spelling without completeing a full phonics course does not mean that this is what is recommended, KWIM? TWTM recommends completing OPG, starting spelling when you are about halfway through.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83548&page=3 check out the phonics info in this thread. Also look at what ElizabethB recommends. She is an expert.

[PeterPan]

Grammar, I still struggle with those who say abstract thinking is necessary to understand grammar, such as Analytical and Winston Grammar. Yet, if that is not developed until ~5th, is grammar that goes beyond simply memorizing definitions and lists frustrating for the child by asking them to do something they simply aren't capable of yet?

 

That's the point. With FLL you're asking a grammar stage dc to do what a grammar state dc does best: memorize. You aren't asking them to analyze, discriminate between three possible options, etc. You're just presenting the grammar concepts in a kid-friendly way using familiar things, so the dc gets familiar with the CONCEPT and the definition memorized. Then, when you start actually tearing sentences apart and discriminating a few years later, it all clicks, because it's FAMILIAR. You have pegs. They aren't AFRAID. You have so many people here afraid of grammar, because when they were introduced it, they got bowled over with tons of new concepts and apply them, all at once. If you break it apart, memorizing while the dc is good at memorizing and analyzing when their brain (later) comes into the analyzing stage, it all comes together nicely.

[PeterPan]

When you say that you loved SG... do you mean Sound Beginnings?

 

No, SG=Shurley Grammar, now called Shurley English but still abbreviated SG.

[PeterPan]

Just b/c you see so many switching to spelling without completeing a full phonics course does not mean that this is what is recommended, KWIM? TWTM recommends completing OPG, starting spelling when you are about halfway through.

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83548&page=3 check out the phonics info in this thread. Also look at what ElizabethB recommends. She is an expert.

 

Two things. One, there are no EXPERTS here. Every mom on this board is an expert in her own dc, and often an expert in any topic she has researched and taught. I talk to teachers and professionals any time I can, but my best help ALWAYS comes from other mothers in the trenches. Schooling and homeschooling are not the same critters, and classroom experience does NOT translate into being an expert in the home environment. Take for instance learning to read, since you bring it up. A classroom teacher or tutor only has control over a certain time period daily over the course of a year. I have my dc's entire LIFE, all their language inculcation, all their experiences I've put in. A classroom teacher can't even IMAGINE the possibilities or remove their limitations in their minds of what can happen when you have that. Even programs that cater to the gifted (MPB) by teachers with gifted experience aren't creating programs that match what kids do when taught one on one at home by someone who is fitting them best.

 

Which brings me to point two. SWR covers, in one year, all the phonics that other programs (OPGTR, BJU, ETC, etc.) spread over multiple years. So how does that fit in the professional or recommended paradigm, when you inculcate a dc with language, language, language, give them ALL the tools of phonics upfront, and then have their reading take off to an astounding level and speed very quickly? It doesn't. It blows the water off WTM, VP, and certainly any traditionally recommended method. THAT'S why we all have to become experts in our own dc and approaches, because we are all doing things differently, and often a bit off from the norm. Bad? No, just different.

 

You have to become an expert in your own dc, because ultimately you're teaching a class of *1*, your particular dc, not a theoretical class of 30. It doesn't matter what the theory says, only what is happening in your one particular dc.

[Jean in Wisc]

I'd make a list of all the things I wanted to teach and then watch how the child did as we went along. When I noticed weak areas, I'd go in search of a program that would help shore it up--or help me teach it better. Each child gets individualized attention. Each child eventually learns what he needs to know.

 

LOL! Sounds simple...but of course, it always seemed complicated at the time.

 

:) Jean

[sagira]

I wish I would have required my children to perfect their handwriting as they learned it -- I later learned that every child can make perfect letters (barring a bona fide disability). I let them be sloppy.

 

I wish I had held the bar higher in other areas, too. I ask more of them now, and they are able and feel accomplished when the work hard.

 

Thank you. I felt bad yesterday after requiring ds to redo his copywork because it was not up to my (high) standards. He didn't even complain that much, but I just felt bad. Now I'm proud of myself and him, as his second effort was much better. I pointed it out to him and he noticed it too.

 

There's so much wisdom in this thread.

[Lovedtodeath]

Two things. One, there are no EXPERTS here. Every mom on this board is an expert in her own dc, and often an expert in any topic she has researched and taught.

 

Which brings me to point two. SWR covers, in one year, all the phonics that other programs (OPGTR, BJU, ETC, etc.) spread over multiple years.

Point taken.

 

I think that you misunderstand what I mean all around. Just to clear some things up:

 

Using SWR is completing a phonics prgram. There are many, many spelling programs that do not teach phonics.

 

OPGTR is supposed to take only a year or slightly longer.

 

I know with my child (and apparantly I am an expert!), switching to spelling was a bad idea, b/c it was much slower than learning the phonics with the intent to read, and we had to start over from the beginning. For her, at this point, I like the idea of learning the phonics once for reading and then reviewing them for spelling. One can start out with a program that uses a spell to read method and use it very successfully.

 

As far as I know, ElizabethB does use spell to read techniques, but I feel uncomfortable talking about her without her input. As far as calling her an expert, I think you misunderstand my meaning there too. I am likely to call Jenn&Charles an expert due to all of the work that she puts into designing curriculum. I don't mean it the way that you are taking it. KWIM? I think you are an expert on some things too, and really value your input in these forums.

Edited May 16, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

Scattered thoughts. ::rolleyes::

Edited May 16, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

So to sum up:

 

Phonics: Get a good start and then continue until you have completed phonics.

 

Handwriting: Have high standards of work, continue with a handwriting program until finished (and that may be as late as 6th grade, certainly not earlier than 3rd.) Keep handwriting as a separate subject so that your child can focus on one skill being taught at a time. (Similar to the way summarizing and writing are separated in WWE.)

 

Grammar: Use a quality program and don't be afraid of repetition. Starting in Junior High does not work. FLL 1 and 2 are a great foundation to any grammar program that one does later.

 

Copywork and dictation have great value. Make sure to utilize them in teaching.

 

Be sure to include quality literature, both as read alouds and independent reading.

 

Is that about it?

 

Elizabeth: (notice I edited my response above, I am sorry for my weaknesses in being articulate.)