did anyone watch We Shall Remain last night?

[abreakfromlife]

It was the 5th and final show of the American Indians series on PBS...last night was about Wounded Knee. I was so excited for this one. We went out to Mt. Rushmore 3 years ago and I read everything I could about Indians/Pine Ridge/WK............there was one thing I didn't know, though, and I was floored last night when I saw it. I'm still so surprised and shocked and appalled at it. The U.S. government was removing Indian kids from their families and putting them in boarding schools to 'Americanize' them up until the 1960's!?!?!?! I just can't believe it. How horrible. I really thought that kind of obvious terrible treatment of them ended a hundred years ago. 1960's? Really???? and they rubbed DDT on them???????????? I am still just appalled.

 

On a somewhat related note, I just watched Rabbit-Proof Fence the other night - Australians were forcibly removing Aboriginal kids from families up until the 1970's??? I just can't even imagine. How does this kind of stuff happen in a 'modern' world?? I just am stunned that that kind of stuff happened so recently.

[HRAAB]

Dh, kids and I have enjoyed this series so, so, so much. We were reminded last night of the same movie, Rabbit Proof Fence (which is an excellent movie) and the similarities. Unbelievable, but there it is. We've also been through the Wounded Knee area several times, so my girls had quite a few connections with our trips and earlier discussions.

 

Janet

[Jenny in Atl]

Yes, it's been a painful but moving series to watch.

[LNC]

Very good series.

Edited May 12, 2009 by LNC

[Carol in Cal.]

I have a close friend who is about 55 and is Lakota Sioux. He says that the connection between his parents' generation and his grandparents' generation was almost completely broken by the boarding school experiences.

 

He also says that there were jurisdictions among the tribes from specific church denominations--one family group was 'claimed' by the Methodists, another by the Catholics, etc. And that they then dug up that family's ancestors and reburied them in the 'right' church's graveyards.

 

There was a German Lutheran pastor who was a missionary to the Native Americans in the Midwest during the late 1800's who wrote several books about his experiences. I remember reading them as a kid--one was "Yaalahn," and another was "Dohaschtida." They assumed the system of required boarding school attendance as a given. That system was in place for a long, long time.

[mommaduck]

That broken generation gap is also why most of our Native speakers are above a certain age. Cherokee Nation is working hard to teach the language to this generation NOW. Within a short period of time, those speakers will be too old or passed on and the language would die with them if we didn't act now.

 

(Cherokee classes are available online for free...real teacher and classroom interaction ;) )

[Mom0012]

It was the 5th and final show of the American Indians series on PBS...last night was about Wounded Knee. I was so excited for this one. We went out to Mt. Rushmore 3 years ago and I read everything I could about Indians/Pine Ridge/WK............there was one thing I didn't know, though, and I was floored last night when I saw it. I'm still so surprised and shocked and appalled at it. The U.S. government was removing Indian kids from their families and putting them in boarding schools to 'Americanize' them up until the 1960's!?!?!?! I just can't believe it. How horrible. I really thought that kind of obvious terrible treatment of them ended a hundred years ago. 1960's? Really???? and they rubbed DDT on them???????????? I am still just appalled.

 

On a somewhat related note, I just watched Rabbit-Proof Fence the other night - Australians were forcibly removing Aboriginal kids from families up until the 1970's??? I just can't even imagine. How does this kind of stuff happen in a 'modern' world?? I just am stunned that that kind of stuff happened so recently.

 

Sally -

 

I just watched Rabbit Proof Fence a couple of weeks ago and was shocked and saddened at how the Australian government behaved towards the Australian natives.

 

Imagine my further to shock to see that my own government did the exact same thing to the natives of this country. That children were ripped away from their parents against their will just upset me so much. I couldn't believe the parallels between the Wounded Knee situation and what I saw in Rabbit Proof fence. And you are right! I couldn't believe that it was not even that long ago that this was going on either.

 

Lisa

Edited May 12, 2009 by LisaTheresa

[WishboneDawn]

This happened in Australia and here on Canada too and the "residential" schools were often places where kids were abused as well. It was mostly the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches that ran the schools here in Canada.

 

I think it's just not that remarkable that many native people have problems with addictions or violence today. Governments spent decades practically engineering their communities and families to fail and, with modern reserves, still do. Spend a bit of time studying the ins and outs of what it means to live on a reserve or the hoops a person has to jump through to be recognized as native in the first place and you'll see that how our governments treat native peoples hasn't really changed, just become more subtle.

 

It's ridiculously frustrating when you start to really look into the matter.

[abreakfromlife]

I couldn't believe it, it seemed as if the whole school group was given the wrong impression on purpose.

I was thinking about this last night and I remember that being a subject of a couple of Janette Oke's books, in the Canadian provinces. It was shown to be a positive mostly; it's been years since I read them (a million times each, lol) but I remember some of the indian characters telling their kids to go to the school so they can learn to interact with the english world. I remember one book where the kid ran away from the school. I didn't even think about it at the time; looking back, now it kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

overnments spent decades practically engineering their communities and families to fail and, with modern reserves, still do.

I couldn't believe it when I was reading stuff about Pine Ridge. It's the poorest county in the country. That's just appalling. And that the gov't still isn't doing much to help them. Around here, the tribes are big into casinos, and that irritates lots of people - but man- I can't blame them. It's the one way that they're guaranteed to make money.

[Frontier Mom]

Yep, we lived on the Cherokee Indian Reservation for three years as missionaries. My two oldest ds's were born there. Many of the elders would tell stories of boarding school, being beaten for speaking their native tongue and never getting to come home. They would cry as they told the stories.

 

My family also went to Pine Ridge to assist our missionary friends with a Casting Crowns benefit concert last September. It was chilling to actually see the burial ground of Wounded Knee.

 

The plight of the Native Americans is near and dear to my heart. Our missionary friends are actively trying to help the people in Pine Ridge, which is host to Shannon County, the poorest county in the US.

 

Here is their website if anyone is interested: Wings as Eagles Ministry

[Mrs Mungo]

One reason they took a lot of the kids from their homes in Oklahoma (where I'm from) is that whites would "adopt" them, arrange for the boarding school to go get them and then the new adoptive parents would take over the child's land, water and (most importantly) mineral rights. There are still fights going on in the courts over this.

[abreakfromlife]

and then the new adoptive parents would take over the child's land, water and (most importantly) mineral rights.

just when I think my jaw can't drop any further....holy cow!!!!!!

 

 

That Wings as Eagles ministry looks really cool. I've been wondering what to do with all of my extra seeds....finally, a way to do something!

[Carol in Cal.]

...in some cases the motives were extremely nefarious, and in others they were extremely idealistic. Neither motive worked out well. It's a terrible, sad history all around.

 

A good book on the subject is "Legacy of Conquest."

 

One thing I learned from that book is that not only is hindsight 20/20, but it's really, really hard to think of what should have been done instead, in many cases. It's disheartening to conclude that no choice would have been a good one, given the situation, but in fact that is where I landed after reading that book.

 

Again, not to defend the practices, though.

[mommaduck]

...in some cases the motives were extremely nefarious, and in others they were extremely idealistic. Neither motive worked out well. It's a terrible, sad history all around.

 

A good book on the subject is "Legacy of Conquest."

 

One thing I learned from that book is that not only is hindsight 20/20, but it's really, really hard to think of what should have been done instead, in many cases. It's disheartening to conclude that no choice would have been a good one, given the situation, but in fact that is where I landed after reading that book.

 

Again, not to defend the practices, though.

 

I don't see the idealism in regards to doing this to the Cherokee. (I cannot speak for other Native Peoples) To make us more like them? We already were...we were one of the first tribes to adopt European ways. To teach us English and how to read and write? Well, that was happening also. And we were learning to read and write in at least TWO languages. To make us Christians? MANY Cherokee were Christians by the time of the Trail of Tears. On my husband's side (also Cherokee and on the ToT...I'm Eastern), he had a grandmother who was Baptist and they refused her burial on church grounds, simply because she was Tsalagi. No, it was a means to erase who they were and to weaken the tribes. No doubt these people believed along the lines of people like the modern Bill Gothard that the "evils" of their previous generations ran through their blood and they were "obligated" to beat it out of them (or maintain reigns so tight as to nearly strangle a child...the whole "break their will and rebuild them" thinking).

 

The idealism is certainly mislaid...drastically. Definitely supported by the government...look how the government tries to rule who is and who isn't Cherokee, make us jump through hoops to prove such, say that we aren't after so many generations even if we are pure blood, and is fighting to dismantel what recognised tribes are left.

[Denise in Florida]

(Cherokee classes are available online for free...real teacher and classroom interaction ;) )

 

Do you have a link? My youngest daughter has been 'sampling' various non-romantic languages.

 

Thank you,

[mommaduck]

(Cherokee classes are available online for free...real teacher and classroom interaction ;) )

Do you have a link? My youngest daughter has been 'sampling' various non-romantic languages.

 

Thank you,

 

http://www.cherokee.org/

 

Sign up, click on the Culture tab at the top right, hover on Language at the middle of the page, click on Online Language Class right below...sign up for Cherokee I (we are in the middle of a semester, but it will give her an idea and she can then also use the archives to catch up).

 

You can only sign up for one class per email at a time. Also you must start with Cherokee I.

Edited May 14, 2009 by mommaduck

[Carol in Cal.]

I don't see the idealism in regards to doing this to the Cherokee. (I cannot speak for other Native Peoples) To make us more like them? We already were...we were one of the first tribes to adopt European ways. To teach us English and how to read and write? Well, that was happening also. And we were learning to read and write in at least TWO languages. To make us Christians? MANY Cherokee were Christians by the time of the Trail of Tears. On my husband's side (also Cherokee and on the ToT...I'm Eastern), he had a grandmother who was Baptist and they refused her burial on church grounds, simply because she was Tsalagi. No, it was a means to erase who they were and to weaken the tribes. No doubt these people believed along the lines of people like the modern Bill Gothard that the "evils" of their previous generations ran through their blood and they were "obligated" to beat it out of them (or maintain reigns so tight as to nearly strangle a child...the whole "break their will and rebuild them" thinking).

 

The idealism is certainly mislaid...drastically. Definitely supported by the government...look how the government tries to rule who is and who isn't Cherokee, make us jump through hoops to prove such, say that we aren't after so many generations even if we are pure blood, and is fighting to dismantel what recognised tribes are left.

 

I am so sorry that I hurt you.

 

I agree with you. I was not talking about morality--I tried but failed to make that clear. I was talking about motives. There were people who clearly believed that the NA's were equal people and who acted in a way that turned out to be badly toward them, with the goal of bringing them into society so that they would not die out (as appeared inevitable at that time). There were also people who believed that (insert heinous, unacceptable, racist remark here) who acted badly toward them with the goal of wiping them out. The laws of unintended consequences totally ruled--at least according to that book, which was extensively footnoted and appeared well-researched. That's one of the many things that is so hard about that history.

 

No, of course I wouldn't support the Trail of Tears. No, of course I wouldn't support rounding up people and shooting them. No, of course I wouldn't support the actual 'hunting' that occurred here in my state as well as elsewhere. Yes, I think it is shameful that our own government did not honor its treaty obligations with many tribes.

 

I am aware of the current and past injuries, and again, I emphatically don't condone them. It's actually worse than you have said here, as I am sure you are aware. The government has failed to recognize several tribes to my certain knowledge, here in CA, that have clearly been here forever, but claiming that they don't have records to show that. Uh, excuse me, our own government records make that case. And there is no written language in those tribes, but oral records should be acceptable where there is clear transmission as in those cases.

[HRAAB]

That broken generation gap is also why most of our Native speakers are above a certain age. Cherokee Nation is working hard to teach the language to this generation NOW. Within a short period of time, those speakers will be too old or passed on and the language would die with them if we didn't act now.

 

(Cherokee classes are available online for free...real teacher and classroom interaction ;) )

 

A few years ago we were looking for a Choctaw language program for our daughter. At that time, I think, there were about 3,000 people who could speak the Choctaw language, and they were all older people. The language is dying out. Fortunately, we found a language program for her to use.

 

Janet

[Denise in Florida]

Thank you, Mommaduck. I have bookmarked the page. I will have her look at it after she has finished up a few pending studies.

 

Denise

[Frontier Mom]

That Wings as Eagles ministry looks really cool. I've been wondering what to do with all of my extra seeds....finally, a way to do something!

 

Yes, they are great people with an incredible testimony concerning how they ended up there in the first place. Their heart for the people is amazing. Casting Crowns, the band, has formed a relationship with them and recently helped get the Dream Center started.

 

If you check out the media link and look at the Casting Crowns 08 concert, you will see pics of our family. I love the true native people. They have been dealt a bad hand for sure. The statistics on the site are heart breaking on their own. Unfortunately, this is only one reservation. I am sure there are similar statistics at many others.

[mommaduck]

It just touched a nerve at the audacity of certain idealisms. I'm a Christian. I'm aware of Christian history, the good, the bad, the ugly. My issue is when our gov is still treating us, US citizens that have fought in their wars, as threats if we get together or honor our heritage. It's not you, it's the issue ;)

 

I am so sorry that I hurt you.

 

I agree with you. I was not talking about morality--I tried but failed to make that clear. I was talking about motives. There were people who clearly believed that the NA's were equal people and who acted in a way that turned out to be badly toward them, with the goal of bringing them into society so that they would not die out (as appeared inevitable at that time). There were also people who believed that (insert heinous, unacceptable, racist remark here) who acted badly toward them with the goal of wiping them out. The laws of unintended consequences totally ruled--at least according to that book, which was extensively footnoted and appeared well-researched. That's one of the many things that is so hard about that history.

 

No, of course I wouldn't support the Trail of Tears. No, of course I wouldn't support rounding up people and shooting them. No, of course I wouldn't support the actual 'hunting' that occurred here in my state as well as elsewhere. Yes, I think it is shameful that our own government did not honor its treaty obligations with many tribes.

 

I am aware of the current and past injuries, and again, I emphatically don't condone them. It's actually worse than you have said here, as I am sure you are aware. The government has failed to recognize several tribes to my certain knowledge, here in CA, that have clearly been here forever, but claiming that they don't have records to show that. Uh, excuse me, our own government records make that case. And there is no written language in those tribes, but oral records should be acceptable where there is clear transmission as in those cases.