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  1. I am doing the literary analysis bit of WWS with A. and I think it is great for him and for me: he is not naturally a literary analysis kind of fellow, and as we work through the WWS lessons I can see that they will help me do a much better job of doing the WTM-style literary analysis work during the rest of our year. As in, do it at all -- I'd never figured out how to explain the nuts-and-bolts of even a beginning WTM-style literary paper. After 1 week with WWS and Rikki-tikki-tavi both he and I are figuring out how to approach the assignments. I don't _think_ I want to do all of WWS, though. I'm almost certainly going to use Classical Writing for formal instruction. (As an aside to folks thinking through what they like to do, I've found that doing the WTM-style outlines, summaries &c is invaluable writing during our subject classes, but using a program like WWS or Classical Writing really pushes the child: it improves his writing, his reading, his thinking, and also keeps him from getting bored with writing. So my Ideal Vision includes both. Reality does intrude!) Are there similar sections in WWS2 and WWS3 that can be used alone? I did skim the table of contents in WWS2 at Amazon, but (maybe because I'm sick and fuzzy-headed) couldn't figure out the answer to my question. thanks in advance!
  2. Does anyone have any suggestions for writing prompts for high school students? I'm looking for things that would provide challenging but interesting arguments for a 14-year old, good topics for literary analysis, etc. Thanks! Brad
  3. Jumping off the high school in a box post, if we're using SL and want to add in a book or resource that teaches lit. analysis that we could then use on a few of the SL books, does anyone have a suggestion? I have IEW Structure and Style that we used in elementary (well, we used 1/2 of it and then I started to really dislike how all of her papers sounded alike.) Anyway, any ideas? I don't want a complete grammar or lang. arts program, just something to teach those valuable lit. analysis skills. Thanks!
  4. I have a couple of questions about doing lit analysis the way SWB outlines in her audio lecture. If anyone knows the answers, I would appreciate it! Firstly, for high school writing, she recommends students write two one-page persuasive papers per week. In the lit. analysis lecture, she says they should write one lit. paper per week. So does that mean they are to write 3 papers a week? Or two with one being a lit. paper? Secondly, for studying lit. terms, students are to get the recommended book and keep a notebook of terms that they work on once per week. I am assuming students would begin doing this in 9th grade, but how long does this take? Will the terms last all four years of high school or do they just study them until they're finished and then use them in their lit. papers? Thanks for any help!
  5. I am flat-out terrible at analysis, so I am having major trouble coming up with discussion questions that provoke the analysis/discussion that I want DD to engage in for literature and history. Something as simple as, "What are some of the internal causes of the fall of the Roman empire? What are some of the external causes?" just doesn't occur to me, let alone anything more complex. I recently bought some TOG units, and I love that TOG provides the questions for discussion and analysis. Unfortunately, I want to use different spines, and of course the info in those doesn't always match up with the questions TOG provides, so I feel like I'm :willy_nilly: trying to sub in the books I want to use yet still make sure they have the information I need so I can use the discussion questions, or reading everything carefully to make sure I'm not asking questions the assigned reading didn't answer, etc. Ideally, I'd use the spines I want, read them alongside DD, and we'd discuss, but the best I can seem to do is comprehension/retention-type questions. How can I go beyond that? How can I help her make connections between the history we read and the literature we read? Is wrestling with TOG every few months my only hope? *sigh* I'd really hoped that by the time we reached this point, I'd have this figured out.
  6. I was really looking forward to getting to the literary analysis section of WWS, because dd and I enjoy discussing literature using the questions in WTM and the method SWB described in her Literary Analysis lectures. I've had dd write about a few books previously, and was eager for her to really learn how it's done, step by step, from WWS. But . . . I really dislike the way WWS teaches literary analysis. The student is asked to analyze the piece (via discussion and notetaking with the instructor) on one day, and then on the second day to do two (or more) separate things: to write a summary, and then to write an analysis. Then, you are somehow supposed to squish them together, removing anything redundant and adding transitions as needed. But, but, but . . . this feels so awkward and backwards! You are doing a task without understanding the goal, or the endpoint. You end up with a lot of repetition that needs to come out, and a lot of analysis that needs to be added in the second part in order to make this work. This is really an unintuitive and difficult thing for me to get my head around, and it's really frustrating for dd. Is this just a style thing? Another example of the parts-to-whole vs. whole-to-parts thing that Ruth brought up in her comparison of WWS & LToW? DD is definitely more of a big picture thinker, who likes to know the goal before she starts. I think she would do much better with a more straightforward explanation of the assignment, more "prelection" about what the goals are and what the end result is supposed to be. And less need to cross out stuff she has already written! This makes her nuts. ;) I will be thinking about how to adapt WWS in future lessons, but I'm also wondering about others' experience: First, has anyone else felt this way? Do you love how WWS teaches LA? Hate it? Feel meh but find it serviceable? I'm also wondering if you have found anything else you love for teaching kids to write about literature? I'm thinking at this point that maybe *I* have learned enough from WWS, and from WTM and SWB's lectures that I can teach this on my own, but I am curious about others' experiences with teaching Lit Analysis to Logic Stage students.
  7. People always ask what the point of learning higher math is if you're never going to use it in "real life". I'm wondering the same thing about literary analysis. What is the purpose of analyzing literature? And what is the purpose of learning to write a literary essay?
  8. I'm trying to "work backwards" as I'm planning my oldest's 7th grade year. I think I'd like to use some of Excellence in Literature's stuff in high school. I was planning on doing Windows to the World in 8th. So, what should I use next year to get her ready for WttW? I have looked at Lightning Lit 7 and briefly thought about using Figuratively Speaking. (These are still possibilities.) She'll either be continuing with Classical Writing (Homer B/Diogenes) or doing Writing With Skill 1 next year. Does WWS teach enough lit analysis to get her ready to write the stuff necessary in WttW? This is my reluctant writer.
  9. At the middle and high school levels, Tapestry of Grace uses the literary term "experiment in living" to talk about "A choice that a character makes to act and live according to particular beliefs." As the plot develops, of course, the reader has a front row seat to observer how this experiment worked out for him. Literature was never my thing in the first place so it doesn't surprise me that I don't recall this term from high school or college (let alone they were a long time ago!). But I just did a quick google search and only see the term in reference to TOG. This makes me wonder if the term is unique to TOG or if this is used outside of TOG by another name. Thanks to anyone who can help me.
  10. Hello All, My Son is now going to be home schooled for 9th. I have never planned to HS high school!! It was truly never an option I considered! My DD just started her first day of 10th today, and I have 2 middles both in second grade, who start with our HS charter in two weeks, and 2 littles who will start preschool first week of Sept. Our CT-is great- as long as I hit the standards at some point, I can use any material I would like. I've had my second graders materials filed and planned since the begging of summer!!! (Can you tell I am a planner :lol: ) So I am STRESSED about this new situation with my Son... For a number of reasons he must be home schooled this year, and PS is just not an option. I was just given a list of his courses for next year based on his Middle School Transcripts (PS) , and I'm lost. Any recommendations.... post to read over.... advice... would be helpful. Here's what he has to take and what I think.. Spanish 1- I'm fully Bilingual (son in not) so all I will need Is a Text- and away we should go.. (any recommendations on this?) Health- Will just use the PS book Biology - No clue... Seriously considering just Getting the same text as my daughter (since she has Biology this year. ) and pacing the same but what about LABS?? Any help would be appreciated. PE1- I will get a "text" and fitness requirements needed.. Art1- again no clue Geometry- Yikes.. Thinking maybe Saxon... I would really like something that has a DVD or teaching component. I'm going to be behind the 8-ball and just will not have time to re-learn it all before he gets to it.. Honors English1- YIKES this is the scary bit... If it were my call no way would be be in Honors.. his LA is atrocious. On an essay last year he wrote (becase, bacuse ) just like that side to side both wrong. I'm going to have to do this class along with remediation for spelling, grammar etc. along side it . What does a High school honors English class look like? Again any help would be so greatful. Thank you.. Lee
  11. Sorry this ended up being so long! In my search for a more structured literature study, I stumbled across a post by Swimmermom in which she asked 8FilltheHeart for advice on literature. I devoured the whole thread, which ended up reflecting ideas from the massive Circe thread, and now I'm a bit lost. My kids are younger, so I feel a bit silly posting here, but as I read through websites looking for "Literature" for next year (TtC, many different lit. guide samples online, etc.) I feel the need to know where I'm headed with literature in order to know how to prepare the kids. I'm hoping that some of you who've BTDT will offer advice. I'll preface my questions by noting that I could use a literature refresher - my own education left me lacking thorough familiarity with terms, devices, and especially analysis. I'm familiar with the very basics, but to give an example, I could probably learn much from TtC based on their samples & website. My problem is that I want it all for my kids - the structural knowledge from something like TtC and then higher levels of that same sort of study AND the good, familiar, children's classics, but I don't want to have regrets later. I do want my kids to have an easier time with Great Books later on, in HS & college, for having read children's versions. On the other hand I hate that my 6th grader has never read any of the Little House on the Prairie series, Narnia, The Hobbit, or even The Mouse and the Motorcycle or Alice in Wonderland. I want them to read some good children's lit. while they're young. We've read a small stack of "fun reads", good children's classics, as bedtime stories over the years, but I've mostly stuck to the history-based reading lists and curricula for school reading. This year, before the Circe thread appeared, I read a blurb in TWTM logic stage section (3rd ed., p. 344) that says to keep a balance of at least one work of imagination for every biography or book of history and that really stuck with me. I think these works of imagination are still intended to be authored within the history period being studied. At least, that's how I read it, but I've always been in "extract the instructions so I can follow them exactly" mode when reading WTM. For those of you who do not require all literature to be tied to history, do you still have your kids discuss and study the "fun" books? What should I use for this since at first, I'll be learning some of it right along with them? Do you choose "just for fun" books that are still authored in or written about the time period you're studying in history? I'm thinking of dropping some of the history-centered books, esp. historical fiction, from our schedule. My kids haven't enjoy many of them this year anyhow, and only read good books if I assign a certain # of pages per day. All they read of their own volition currently are Calvin & Hobbes, Garfield, 39 Clues, and Origami Yoda/Darth Paper books. I've always wished we had time to read the entire book whenever we read the passages from WWE. Other than titles I mentioned above, and the WWE book lists, which books are not to be missed for kids this age who've been bogged down with history books for 4 years? Where should I look for lists of good children's classics?
  12. First of all, dd is a great reader. She is primarily a math and science kid though and she is really struggling with literature. When they ask thinking questions that require her to read into motive or the thoughts of the author, she really struggles. She said today, "they are leading me to make conclusions that I really can't since I honestly don't know what the author was thinking or what the main character's motives were, etc, etc." I assume this would be a struggle with any literature program? DD reads great books, so in some ways I feel like a literature program is not necessary. What about literature terms though? How important are they? Does anyone here have a literature program they love? If so, why do you lvoe it? I think I either need to switch or sign her up for the BJU online lit. class next year. I can't decide :confused:
  13. I promised I searched through the search feature. It does look like this question comes up every month or so in one form or another. So maybe I'm wasting everyone's time asking. I need in a secular book form something that teaches what these are and how to find them: character analysis themes setting symbolism conflict plot moral Oh, and it has to be able to work on any given book. I'm not looking for study guides to a specific book or books. I sort of like Windows to the World (someone lined it in another thread), but it is written to the Christian teacher/student. It also assumes the teacher has a bit of literary analysis under his/her belt. I was never taught to read below the surface. I think with all the moving I did as a kid I kept missing each school's study on this. It progressed to the point that when I went to college I couldn't pass English 2 because I didn't know how to read below the surface, much less write literary essays.
  14. I've been homeschooling for 17 years. My own background/ degrees are in literature and writing. My own sons have all become strong, articulate writers who can actually analyze literary material and discuss it thoughtfully and insightfully(as affirmed by other teachers). I've taught for years in co-op classes and invariably receive very positive evaluations from the students who say that "it was challenging, but I learned so much!" So I must be doing something right, yes? Then why is it that my co-op students struggle so badly at writing a basic lit analysis paper after a semester of instruction? I have taught both basic essay writing and lit analysis in our local co-op for high school kids (so far, using primarily Elegant Essay and Windows to the World), and I continue to shake my head at how minimally or simplistically so many of these students *think.* I don't want to go into a rant here ; what I'm wondering is how to teach students to think analytically so that they actually can write analytically. Yes, the WW program presents a basic lit analysis paragraph model to follow: TS, assertion; proof/ quotations; commentary; etc. Where the students seem to fall down is with the commentary section of the paragraph--ie, the part that actually makes literary analysis literary analysis ; ) Despite our having worked together in class to understand what commentary is, asking how and why and to what effect, they still seem to fall back on the most basic sorts of observations which do not actually *say* anything. For example, their last essay assignment was to write about the significance of setting in one of three stories. Using "A Jury of Her Peers," one student wrote: "Additionally, the inside of the house is described as grey and unwelcoming [assertion]. The furnishings, such as a "dingy red" chair with the "middle rung gone," create the grey and unwelcoming feeling, The way Glaspell describes the chair begins to paint an image in the reader's mind, The reader combines the idea of the kitchen having a "dingy" and broken chair with the description of the outside of the house to create a picture of a grey, run down interior" [commentary]. Lots of words, lots of repetition--very little meat! (Don't let me even start on weak writing styles...) But how do you help a student to see that and then to think more deeply about a text and how to express those deeper thoughts more effectively? My sons have seemed to catch on readily--why can't these kids? Thanks for any input, Robin (banging my head quietly against the table as I mark these essays....)
  15. For this rest of this year and next I want to focus on one literary element for each book I read aloud. I think it will make for some interesting discussions. The kids will be 4th-7th grades. I'm brainstorming which chapter books would be a good match for each literary element. I'd love if anyone has ideas to contribute to my list of choices. :) I may cycle back through the elements again if it goes well the first time around. I keep coming up with ideas of books I've already read aloud to them or isn't appropriate for their ages, lol. Setting- Island of the Blue Dolphin(already read), The Wizard of Oz Figurative Language-Phantom Tollbooth(already read), James and the Giant Peach, Maniac McGee, Where the Red Fern Grows, Tuck Everlasting, Poppy Characterization- Lord of the Flies Theme- The Wrinkle in Time(already read) Flashback- Holes(already read) Foreshadowing- Plot- Point of View-
  16. I am looking for beginning type literary analysis for younger middle schoolers that goes beyond simple narration and comprehension questions which ds excels at. I am hoping for something that is directed at the student for the most part and that can be done mostly independently.
  17. Just wondering what everyone's using/doing for elementary literature/reading. I have an up and coming 3rd grader and have considered Progeny Press, Memoria Press Lit. Guides, and DITHOR. Does anyone have any opinions on those? or maybe you use something else or some other method? Thanks!
  18. Has anyone used any of these? Which ones and what is the good & the bad? Thinking about using the first one next year for 8th grade. Are there certain skills needed before starting or does it start at the beginning? Is this really high school level work? Any suggestions of programs to do before or instead of? Thanks in advance.
  19. Ds is working on a simplified hermeneutics study of the Bible at church. I think they are just working on certain significant parts, as this is part of the Sr High youth group. We were talking about it the other night and he commented that there is only one interpretation of Bible (or any literature for that matter) that is 100% correct, and that is the interpretation of the author. He was commenting that literature (counting the Bible as lit) isn't supposed to be personally interpreted by the reader, but the reader's responsibility is to try to discover the writer's interpretation of events within the words. FYI: He was not trying to say that he knows the correct interpretation, just that it exists. What do you think of this?
  20. Hi I want to sign my son up for a British Literature Survey at our local co-op. It says "Students must be comfortable with five paragraph essay format and basic literary analysis." I know how to teach the five paragraph essay format but have NO CLUE how to teach "basic literary analysis." I have googled and read up on it but all it seems to be is, 1. Picking a thought you have on the piece of literature 2. Backing it up using the five paragraph essay or expand it in a term paper. Am I missing something? What is literary analysis? How do I learn it? How do I teach it? I can't find anything in WTM that guides me through this. It skips right to rhetoric. Is literary analysis rhetoric for literary works? Help...titles of books with guidance would be very welcome...or anything would be welcome, actually...
  21. My ds will be using Beautiful Feet's Middle Ages study next year for his 8th grade year. There is some writing, research and vocabulary involved. Would it be too much to add Language Lessons from Lord of the Rings or IEW's Medieval History for writing? I haven't seen either in person, so I'm not sure what is included. I'm assuming IEW would just be writing. I think LLFLOTR includes writing with literary analysis and vocabulary (?). Would doing one of these with BF be too much? What if we left out BF's writing? How much writing is included with LLFLOTR? My ds hasn't done any literary analysis at all, and he hasn't even read LOTR yet, so I think doing LLFLOTR would be great. But I love the look and step-by-step approach of IEW's lessons. He definitely needs work with writing, but maybe literary analysis can wait. Hmmm.... What do you think?
  22. Over the last couple of years, I have written at different times about my youngest son as being the "non-reader in a house full of books." Shelf upon shelf of Newberry award-winning books from the older kids have gone unread by the youngest, with only A Wrinkle in Time and Alexander's The Iron Ring receiving any level of approval. DS is happy if I read to him and does have a couple of shelves of favorites that include Greek and Roman mythology, Alice in Wonderland, and authors, Coolidge and Haugaard among others. Classic retellings from Seamus Heaney, Rosemary Sutcliff and Geraldine McCaughrean also make the grade. At the beginning of eighth grade this year, he was actually proud to write a poem that mentioned his dusty shelves of unread books.:tongue_smilie: In 7th grade, I had to buy a second core's worth of books to satisfy his older brother's reading appetite while he was working through Sonlight. So...the night before school started, my dd gave ds The Hunger Games to read. A day later he picked up Fahrenheit 451 of his own free will and read it!:001_huh: Since then, he has added 1984, Animal Farm, and is currently reading Ciardi's translation for The Inferno, which he requested and cannot put down. Now what? What else should I be suggesting for him? I am currently reading Dava Sobel's Longitude out loud to him. His tastes are so eclectic that I don't have clue as to what will work and what won't work. This year, I am letting him pick his own reading.
  23. Hello! This is my first visit to these forums and I hope some of you veterans can help me out. I've been homeschooling for 9 years, most of which have been with the classical method. However, as my oldest is in 8th grade we are thinking of high school. I've looked at packaged curricula and some of them offer courses in literary analysis. The classical curricula that I am familiar with, including WTM, do not seem to delve into this in the same way (although I could have missed it!). My question is how to teach literary analysis effectively and secondly, do we need to teach it? Why? Thanks! Jennifer
  24. This is a paper my 10th grade son wrote in response to Stephen Crane's poem, "Do Not Weep Maiden, For War is Kind." While ds is my most well-read child, he is also my only one that struggles with spelling and grammar, in part, because he rushes to get his work done and is not particular about details. Could you please critique the work keeping in mind that he will not take AP English tests, but still needs to be able to write a competent analysis. You also do not need to be kind as I will sort out what I will share now and what we will work on over the summer. He is in public high school. War is Kind Man has been going off to war for ages. They leave their wives and mothers to win honor, valor and glory on the battlefield. Most of the time they come home as heroes. They come home to their mothers and wives. Then there are those who come home in a box, never to see their loved ones again. People seem to forget that fact a lot. In Stephen Crane’s poem “Do not weep, maiden, for war is kind.†He employs the help of irony, imagery, and refrain to show how war is depicted in glorious ways so that everyone forgets the pain it causes. Crane’s poem practically drips with irony to drive his point home, that war cause pain that people forget about. He uses lines such as “Your lover threw wild hands toward the sky.†He tries to remind you that war steals the hearts of men from their lovers and the pain of them leaving intensifies when they learn that they have died. He reminds us of fathers, “ragged at his breast, gulped, and died,†who left their families behind to grieve and pray for them. These are two things that people experience every day and other people forget about because war has been spruced up in such a way that people forget about all that pain. He says it all in one irony drenched line, “war is kind.†Another device that the poet uses is imagery to show how war is glorified and depicted in such a way that it creates a shroud over the horror and terribleness of war. He almost paints a picture in your head of a “swift, blazing flag of the regiment,†and the “eagle with the crest of red and gold.†It’s almost like your their on the field wait to go to war. You hear the “hoarse, booming drums of the regiment,†calling you into a bloody fight. But amongst all of this the pain has been washed away like a bloodstain on uniform. The last device that is used is refrain. Crane masterfully uses it to bring imagery and irony together to make this poem a very powerful and moving one. His first line is almost the definition of irony “Do not weep maiden, war is kind.†It makes the reader wonder how war can be kind. He repeats words from that line three more time in his poem. And it’s always right after he says something about the pain war causes. Then he describes war in an almost beautiful way. He sneaks in “these men who were born to drill and die†and “a field were a thousand corpses lie,†to shatter the images of war being wonderful to bring it back to the reality that war is terrible thing. With the clever usage of irony, imagery, and refrain Crane has moved all the misconceptions of war away to reveal the gaping wound it leaves of people’s lives. The agony of seeing their loved ones going off to some place to die and kill for a cause they might not believe in. In fact I hope this poem will help people understand the true horrors of war and not what books and movies tell them.
  25. read during the Ancients period? If I use SOTW and MOH for middle grades, what can I use to study the books we read from a Christian worldview, hopefully including lit analysis? Any such animal? Are there products that accomplish that individually? Thanks, Kim
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