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mo2

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  1. My kid who also has issues with wordy texts went through a couple different options after Walch (which we used like a Pre-Algebra) but liked and did best with Thinkwell. He finished Algebra and Geometry in about 6 months before moving on to Algebra 2.

     

    I will definitely look into Thinkwell.  

     

    I would recommend what foxbridgeacademy did -- using them as pre-algebra and pre-geometry. Go ahead and transcript them as algebra and geometry (that's what the PS does, after all, and it sounds like he needs the credits) and then transcript the second run through as something like "transition/bridge to algebra 2/advanced algebra", all of which I've seen used by the PS. 

     

    I think this will do a lot more to keep college options open than trying to find/jump into an algebra 2 that he can complete after power basics.

     

    I question taking them at the same time; I would definitely prioritize algebra if he starts to struggle. It might actually be easier on him to finish PB algebra, then do a second run through algebra while doing PB geometry. 

     

    Thank you.  I'm new to transcripts and sometimes am not sure how to label things.  She definitely needs the credits, though.  This sounds like a good option!  

  2. The Walch class really isn't enough to prepare for a standard algebra 2. 

     

    How much math has the student had and how did s/he do?

     

    Prealgebra last year was a bit difficult, mostly because the text was so wordy.  I had to read the text and then break it down into smaller, more manageable steps.  We're currently going back over a few things to solidify some concepts before moving on.  I'm looking for something with clear, concise steps for each lesson, not too wordy or cluttered pages.

  3. Have  you looked at their Consumer Math? 

     

    Do they have an idea of what is next after high school? If they are going to a college or community college program that requires a certain math, I would skew his next course to prepare for that. 

     

    If they are going to work, I'd do the same, along with shoring up basic skills. Different trades focus on different math skills, working in sales would also be different. 

     

     

    No definite plans for after high school, so I would like to keep the college option open.  I would love to move on to algebra 2, but is the Walch course enough to prepare for that?  We need to do some catch-up in math, so I'm hoping we can do the Walch Algebra and Geometry concurrently and then move on from there, I'm just not sure what to move on to.  

  4. If your DD might be interested in an online class, Lukeion's Attic Greek class is fantastic. Regan is a truly gifted teacher and the course is extremely well done — the standards are high but he makes it enjoyable. They use the Athenaze texts for Greek 1 & 2, then students read original Greek in 3 & 4. They also offer independent study in Homeric Greek (although I assume they would require completion of at least Greek 1 & 2 first). 

     

    DS took four years of Greek with Lukeion and then self-studied Homeric last year. He has absolutely loved every Lukeion course he has taken (including Latin, classical literature, and Greek art & architecture), but Greek was his absolute favorite.

     

    I have looked at Lukeion before, and I would LOVE to sign DD up for their classes, but honestly it's just not in my budget.  I would like to find an inexpensive Attic Greek program that we can learn together, with neither of us having any prior experience.  

  5. We completed the first 2 levels of Elementary Greek and it is excellent for learning declensions and conjugations and some prepositions. We have now transitioned to Athenaze which is a high school Attic Greek textbook with pretty much no issues. Elementary Greek gave us a great foundation.

     

    I have always heard that if you master Attic then there are only a few extra wrinkles to read Homeric. I think that will be our path. There is so much to read in Attic as it is.

     

    Check out the textkit forums and free PDFs available on textkit. They have some excellent resources and the forum members are very willing to answer questions/help.

     

    Also FYI, If I could go back to Elementary Greek I would have paid MUCH more attention to accentuation because it would have helped us significantly with Athenaze.

    In your opinion (since you have used EG), what sort of credit would I be able to give if we did the 3 levels of Elementary Greek in 1 year and then moved on to another program for year 2?  

  6. Ok, first off Koine, Biblical, New Testament, and Hellenistic Greek are all the same thing. They are the type of Greek in use from about the start of the  Hellenistic period through the time of Christ.  

     

    Ugh.  Why can't they just call it one thing??  :)

     

    Attic Greek is also known as Classical Greek. It was the language in use during the time of Socrates, Euripides, etc.

     

    The oldest form of true Greek is known as Homeric Greek. It is the language of the Iliad and Odyssey.

     

    Modern Greek is in use today and has many differences from all of the above.

     

    ​So, I either want Classical or Homeric Greek.  Thank you!

     

    Generally speaking the older the Greek the more complicated it is to learn. I'm assuming that the Elementary Greek curriculum you mention is the one put out by Memoria Press. If I'm right then it is Koine/Biblical Greek. If I'm remembering correctly it has 3 levels at 1 level per year. Memoria Press also has a 1-year Biblical Greek program called First Form Greek. After completing it they recommend moving on to Croy's A Primer of Biblical Greek. Croy's book is very grammar based. It is similar to Wheelock's Latin in the way it is set up. The other popular Biblical Greek program is Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek. It assumes that the student has had no prior exposure to Greek. However, it doesn't stress grammar the same way Croy does.

     

    Yes, Elementary Greek is the one Memoria Press sells.  It is for a younger age group so I would expect to work through it faster than one level a year.  It is labeled as being used for as young as 4th grade but also good for teens and older beginners.  Since I already own it, I was thinking of giving it a try just to get our feet wet and see if Greek is something my daughter wants to pursue further.  

     

    Good Attic programs for beginners are harder to find, the one I used was called Reading Greek, and I really can't recommend it. It was hard to understand and their were a lot of typos.

     

    The Homeric program I like the best is Clyde Pharr's Homeric Greek course. It is based on the Iliad and has a nice mix of grammar and translation work.

     

    In the end which program you pick really depends on your goal for learning the language.

    Thank you.  This simplifies things a lot!  

  7. What is your goal in learning Greek?

     

    They are quite different--well, Biblical/New Testament are the same thing, and I believe are basically a version of koine (a common form of Greek used in New Testament times).

     

    For information on more ancient variants here is an introduction:

     

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_dialects

     

     

    Modern Greek I think developed from koine but a couple of thousand years do lead to quite a lot of variation (consider what happened in that time to change Latin into the modern romance languages).

    Hmm, I'm not sure of our main goal.  Personally, I would like to be able to read Homer in Greek.  Dd just mentioned that maybe she would like to learn Greek, so I don't know what her goal is.   We definitely aren't interested in biblical Greek.

     

    Thank you for that link.  

  8. I'm super confused by all the different types of Greek language programs out there.  I see things labeled as Koine, Biblical, New Testament, Attic, modern, etc.  Is there really that big of a difference?  What would be an ancient Greek curriculum that I could use with no prior experience?  I picked up a used set of Elementary Greek (mostly just because it was a good deal).  Would it be appropriate to use this and then switch into an ancient Greek program, or would that just cause confusion?  

     

    Thanks.

  9. We found Tolkien's to be very readable. It is short enough could be one that is read together in order to ensure they are not missing too much.

     

    But then, when I was in high school, we read the Canterbury Tales in the original. Painful!

     

     

    You and I must have gone to vastly different high schools.  We read very few classics. 

  10. Just to clarify: this is a cool resource, and I did use some it with my class. Just be aware that this is NOT the Tolkien translation, but instead, this is the John Gardner translation. (See just below the title of the first page of this document.) And, this is only excerpts from the original -- about 400 lines out of the original's 2500+ lines, in 101 stanzas.

     

     

    More resource ideas:

    - Luminarium website -- background info/introduction; articles/essays; resource links 

    - Cotton Nero manuscript -- the oldest surviving edition of the work -- has several cool illustrations!

     

     

    Since there don't appear to be any samples anywhere of Tolkien's translation, I typed up 3 of the stanzas -- beginning, middle, almost the end -- so you can get a sense of the alliteration and rhythm and language he uses. BEST of luck in deciding what to go with! Warmest regards, Lori D.

     

     

    1.

    When the siege and the assault had ceased at Troy,

    and the fortress fell in flame to firebrands and ashes,

    the traitor who the contrivance of treason there fashioned

    was tried for his treachery, the most true upon earth—

    it was Aeneas the noble and his renowned kindred

    who then laid under them lands, and lords became

    of well-nigh all the wealth in the Western Isles.

    When royal Romulus to Rome his road had taken, in great pomp and pride he peopled it first,

    and named it with his own name that yet now it bears;

    Tirius went to Tuscany and towns founded,

    Langaberde in Lombardy uplifted halls,

    and far over the French flood Felix Brutus

    on many a broad bank and brae Britain established 

                  full fair

             where strange things, strife and sadness,

             at whiles in the land did fare,

             and each other grief and gladness

             oft fast have followed there.

     

    50.

    "Upon my word," said Gawain, "that is well, I guess;

    though I am not now he of whom you are speaking—

    to attain to such honour as here you tell of

    I am a knight unworthy, as well indeed I know—

    by God, I would be glad, if good to you seemed

    whatever I could say, or in service could offer

    to the pleasure of your excellence—it would be pure delight."

    In good faith, Sir Gawain," said the gracious lady,

    "the prowess and the excellence that all others approve,

    if I scorned or decried them, it were scant courtesy.

    But there are ladies in number who liever would now

    have thee in their hold, sir, as I have thee here,

    pleasantly to play with in polished converse,

    their solace to seek and their sorrows to soothe,

    than great part of the goods or gold that they own.

    But I thank Him who on high of Heaven is Lord

    that I have there wholly in my hand what all desire,

                  by grace."

             She was an urgent wooer,

             that lady fair of face;

             the knight with speeches pure

             replied in every case.

     

    100.

    Wild ways in the world Wawain [Gawain] now rideth

    on Gringolet: by the grace of God he still lived.

    Oft in house he was harboured and lay oft in the open,

    oft vanquished his foe in adventures as he fared

    which I intend not this time in my tale to recount.

    The hurt was healed that he had in his neck,

    and the bright-hued belt he bore now about it

    obliquely like a baldric bound at his side,

    under his left arm with a knot that lace was fastened

    to betoken he had been detected in the taint of a fault;

    and so at last he came to the Court again safely.

    Delight there was awakened, when the lords were aware

    that good Gawain had returned: glad news they thought it.

    The king kissed the knight, and the queen also,

    and then in turn many a true knight that attended to greet him.

    About his quest they enquire, and he recounts all the marvels,

    declares all the hardships and care that he had,

    what chanced at the Chapel, what cheer made the knight,

    the love of the lady, and the lace at the last.

    The notch in his neck naked he showed them

    that he had for his dishonesty from the hands of the knight

                  in blame.

             It was torment to tell the truth:

             in his face the blood did flame;

             he groaned for grief and ruth

             when he showed it, to his shame.

     

    THANK YOU for taking the time to type this up for me.  It might be a bit much for my child (who does not enjoy reading), but I think I may order it for myself.   Whatever translation I go with, I think getting an audio and having her read along with it might be a good idea.

    • Like 1
  11.  

    Yes, that's understandable, as the left-hand sidebar on that first page, right up near the top of the document says something like, "Did you know? JRR Tolkien was the first to translate Sir Gawain" -- which leads you to believe that what you see in the document is Tolkien's translation. I did the same thing at first when I was using the document last year. ;)

     

     

    Just so you can compare with the John Gardner (that document opens with stanza #9), here's the Tolkien version of stanza #9:

     

     

    9.

    Very gay was this great man guised all in green,

    and the hair of his head with his horse's accorded;

    fair flapping locks enfolding his shoulders,

    a big beard like a bush over his breast hanging

    that with the handsome hair from his head falling

    was sharp shorn to an edge just short of his elbows,

    so that half his arms under it were hid, as it were

    in a king's capadoce that encloses his neck.

    The mane of that mighty horse was of much the same sort,

    well curled and all combed, with many curious knots

    woven in with gold wire about the wonderous green,

    ever a strand of the hair and a string of the gold; 

    the tail and the top-lock were twined all to match

    and both bound with a band of a brilliant green:

    with dear jewels bedight to the dock's ending,

    and twisted then on top was a tight-knitted knot

    on which many burnished bells of bright gold jingled.

    Such a mount on middle-earth, or man to ride him,

    was never beheld in that hall with eyes ere that time;

                       for there

               his glance was as lightning bright,

               so did all that saw him swear;

               no man would have the ight,

               they thought, his blows to bear.

     

     

     

    Here's the original language for that stanza:

     

    To þe gome he watz ful gayn.
    Wel gay watz þis gome gered in grene,
    And þe here of his hed of his hors swete.
    Fayre fannand fax vmbefoldes his schulderes;
    A much berd as a busk ouer his brest henges,
    Þat wyth his hiÈlich here þat of his hed reches
    Watz euesed al vmbetorne abof his elbowes,
    Þat half his armes þer-vnder were halched in þe wyse
    Of a kyngez capados þat closes his swyre;
    Þe mane of þat mayn hors much to hit lyke,
    Wel cresped and cemmed, wyth knottes ful mony
    Folden in wyth fildore aboute þe fayre grene,
    Ay a herle of þe here, an oþer of golde;
    Þe tayl and his toppyng twynnen of a sute,
    And bounden boþe wyth a bande of a bryÈt grene,
    Dubbed wyth ful dere stonez, as þe dok lasted,
    Syþen þrawen wyth a þwong a þwarle knot alofte,
    Þer mony bellez ful bryÈt of brende golde rungen.
    Such a fole vpon folde, ne freke þat hym rydes,
    Watz neuer sene in þat sale wyth syÈt er þat tyme,
    with yÈe.
    He loked as layt so lyÈt,
    So sayd al þat hym syÈe;
    Hit semed as no mon myÈt
    Vnder his dynttez dryÈe.

     

     

    Yup, I definitely couldn't do the original.

     

    PS -- I also keep forgetting to link this fun past thread that is a discussion about Sir Gawain -- it might open up some interesting bunny trails to explore as you read. :)

     

    Sir Gawain and the Green Knight -- input needed please

     

    Oh gosh.  There's so much there!

     

    No, but I watched his "documentary" on the BBC he made about Gawain's Journey. It was interesting. Hope the link comes thru below:

     

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D74glI1lg1CQ&ved=0ahUKEwiXzonyoNzSAhVp3IMKHb3jCXwQwqsBCBwwAA&usg=AFQjCNFtr4PXYZcmw2Si9OjrOayr70wtaQ

     

    Fun!  I bookmarked it to watch when we study Sir Gawain.

  12. While DSs and I really enjoyed the Tolkien version, when I used Tolkien's translation of Sir Gawain last year in my high school Lit. & Comp. class, virtually all of the students were very lost in the Medieval language and culture -- to the point where I had to give them a brief 1-2 sentence summary of what actually *happened* in each stanza.

     

    So if you're not working from an edition with lots of footnotes, or with a study guide to help with a lot of the language and Medieval details, you may not want the Tolkien translation, which does still close to the original.

     

    Here's a pretty modern prose layout translation by Jessie Weston that is quite readable.

    Here's a pretty straight-forward poetic translation by James Winny.

    And another fairly straight-forward poetic translation by Paul Deane.

    The layout of this translation helps you see the "bob and wheel" type of form.

     

    One idea is to do an abridged version, or at least view a short video version first just to have the basic plot in mind, before moving on to a verse translation, and then tackling what it's all about.

     

    - here's a 6-min video animated version of the basic storyline

    - here's a 30-min animated version, divided into six 5-minute segments

    (be sure to click "deny" when it asks to store info on your hard drive -- you may have to click "deny" twice, and then click on the arrow in the bottom left corner to get each video segment to play)

     

    episode 1 (4:17) = At the court of King Arthur =http://www.bbc.co.uk/learning/schoolradio/subjects/english/gawain/episodes/episode_1 

    episode 2 (3:57) = The Green Knight's challenge =http://www.bbc.co.uk/learning/schoolradio/subjects/english/gawain/episodes/episode_2 

    episode 3 (5:06) = At the castle of Sir Bercilak =http://www.bbc.co.uk/learning/schoolradio/subjects/english/gawain/episodes/episode_3

    episode 4 (4:47) = The exchange of gifts =http://www.bbc.co.uk/learning/schoolradio/subjects/english/gawain/episodes/episode_4 

    episode 5 (6:21) = At the Green Chapel = http://www.bbc.co.uk/learning/schoolradio/subjects/english/gawain/episodes/episode_5 

    episode 6 (3:52) = Gawain returns to the Camelot =http://www.bbc.co.uk/learning/schoolradio/subjects/english/gawain/episodes/episode_6

    Thank you for all this.  I have been trying to find a sample of Tolkien's translation so I can get a feel for it, but no such luck (yet, anyway).  I probably want a modern translation for this particular child, but I wouldn't mind if it was still in poetic form.   I will definitely spend some time checking out these links!

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