[Toby Willis is an evil, evil man. Warning: triggers, abuse]

I read this expecting to become overwhelmed by sadness, but her account made me hopeful. What a beautiful, perceptive, wise person has emerged from such incredible ugly, hurtful experiences.

One line from her account struck me: "He always promoted his philosophy, showcasing the family as the living proof of the validity of his methods and beliefs."

A reminder to me not to trust the perceptions and judgments I might experience related to other parents and their children.

[Send older special needs child back to school to make time for younger children?]

11 hours ago, Tsuga said:

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I was talking about someone for accountability, at 6 hours per week, as a check-in, to motivate the high schooler to just do his work already.

Not as an alternative teacher.

And plenty of kids work 10-20 hours per week and volunteer. Many of them would love fewer than 20 hours but find it hard to get a job that has like 5 - 10 so they have to take more hours. And I was talking about paid, around here that's like $30/hour for a first time tutor, so that's $120 per week. That to me seems reasonable.

I agree that it's not a substitute for the entire homeschool, but I wasn't talking about that. I was saying, to provide external accountability without putting the teen straight into high school.

Edit: Also, he doesn't have to be homeschooled. He just has to be a good student and be able to walk through basic questions... our schools have teen tutors for middle schoolers. It's not meant to be the primary means of instruction. But the kids often prefer it because then they have someone who gets the situation they are in. I don't see why people would think an unmotivated 14 year old could help with littles, but a 16 year old with his stuff together couldn't help a 14 year old?

There are surely a lot of factors involved but I don't see high school tutors as impossible.

 

I think there might really be something to the idea that this kid could use older male mentors to be accountable to rather than his mom right now. And I like that this idea might keep him out of a potentially lousy school environment.

I'm not so sure about slightly older peers doing the job; as a former peer tutor, I can tell you that most of the kids I worked with spent a whole lot of time trying to coerce me to do their work for themin various ways. Like many things that happened in school, peer tutoring made those of us who were responsible already even more mature and responsible, but didn't necessarily have the same effect on the kids who were being tutored.

So maybe the question I would have for this kid, or any unmotivated kid, is what responsibility could he take on that would help him build that maturity and sense of responsibility from within? Janeway, you mentioned that he transforms positively when he's not using screens. And you also mention that ballet is an extremely positive experience for him (one of the reasons I'd really hesitate to threaten him with the loss of this activity). If you're up for it, I wonder if it might be helpful to write out all the positive and wonderful traits of this kid, the times when you do see him taking initiative and acting with maturity, or doing something nice for his siblings, or responding to you positively. What if the weight of cultural and academic expectations were totally off you and him-- what would he look like? What would be best for him?

(Not saying you have to do that, but maybe reflecting on that will help you make a decision? You're the only one here that knows that kid. And it would be a good thing if he knew himself as that person, too.)

[Senate Poised to Allow Sen. Duckworth's Newborn on the Floor (Update: Passed. Babies allowed up to 1 yr old)]

Is anyone arguing that babies should be present for long periods of time in most workplaces?

I think it's reasonable for people who can't take maternity leave and work long or odd hours not to be prohibited from feeding their babies at work. This measure, like the one prohibiting laptops on the floor, seems specific to the unique conditions of this particular position.

Childcare is very different in the countries I've lived/traveled in that are generally held up as examples of great attachment parenting-- yes, older siblings sometimes are expected to care for children, but also grandparents, aunts and uncles, fictive kin...one of the hard things about raising kids here in the U.S. is that so much of a burden is put on parents' shoulders, and especially mothers. I think it's a good point that some of the "mothers can do it all" messages have been more stressful than empowering, but I'm not sure I see that actually happening in this case (or think I can judge whether any other mother experiences the choices she is juggling as stressful). We all have different thresholds. But yes, helping parents out is about more than just giving them rights. It is about actually creating a culture that supports parents. And part of creating that culture might include having legislators who are going through the hard stages of parenthood themselves-- even that discovery of just how little one can accomplish while the baby is nursing night and day.

[Senate Poised to Allow Sen. Duckworth's Newborn on the Floor (Update: Passed. Babies allowed up to 1 yr old)]

3 hours ago, kiwik said:

I think it is fine as an occasional thing if the child is asleep or nursing but not a regular thing.  Regular breaks so she can visit the baby an feed it seems fair but really all of us who went back to work with babies knew that there was a price to pay and that the baby cannot come with you to work unless you are self employed.

 

I'm curious about this attitude, which seems not uncommon.

If you were going to do it again, can you imagine conditions that would have made being a working mother better for you, your family, and your child?

There is and was a huge price to pay for prioritizing family, for mothers AND fathers. But there is also a huge price to pay for NOT prioritizing family, and relationships, and I think we have all been paying it for too long. Children. Mothers. Fathers. (Under)paid caregivers.

Life is often unfair as we perceive it, but we can imagine circumstances in which people are happier, healthier, and more balanced, or if we can't, we can try to create the conditions for people who might.

[Send older special needs child back to school to make time for younger children?]

Janeway, is the primary issue here one of balancing your children's academic needs or their emotional needs? (Obviously, they both matter. But what do you perceive as the thing that needs to be attended to first?)

I am almost certain we could figure out a way for you to do the former, but I think many of us rely on a lot of outside support for the latter, especially if one or more of our kids is struggling. It's hard to gain insight on what is best for our children when we are constantly stressed out and barraged by their demands-- do you have nearby friends or family who can help provide some of that love and attention they need while you reflect upon what kind of resources you need in order to continue?

I am not sure if this is right or wrong, but I have come to feel that-- in terms of providing academics and attention-- I must be absolutely certain not to abide by either "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" OR "the wheel that never squeaks gets all my attention because I don't like greasing wheels anyway!" Not only that, but if I think it's just my job to take care of the wheels and forget that I'm a wheel myself, things fall apart.

OK, that metaphor probably went on a little too long. Hope you all had a wonderful field trip!

[Teaching poetry composition to a barely literate child]

That's incredible and wonderful. My inclination would be to change nothing (unless he's asking for more) as whatever you've been doing seems to be inspiring him quite a bit! Not to mention scribing is pretty much the most encouraging and positive thing you can do with a child this age to make them feel their compositions are worthwhile. Is he taking any kind of music lessons or does he have access to an instrument?

[Using a dictionary for spelling?]

It is partially contingent, I think, or even entirely contingent, on that complex mixture of your child's personality and vocabulary.

My kids like using children's dictionaries for games and such, but they never actually contain the words we are looking for and we always end up resorting to my dictionary.

So if your son is struggling with the kinds of words that would be in the children's dictionary, and if he has the patience and fortitude to look up words, this would be an excellent way for him to develop independence and dictionary skills.

But at 6, nope, this would never work with any of my kids. It requires too much independence, maturity, and patience, and would frustrate them. I would be surprised if any 6 year old were able to complete much schoolwork independently, or were eager to outsource mom's role as spelling guide to a dictionary. Asking how to spell a word is asking to learn more, and demonstrating interest in doing things the right way-- the nice thing about spelling words out for a kid is that you don't have to just sit there, and you don't even have to be in the same room!

[How did you teach your children discipline?]

48 minutes ago, seekinghim45 said:

NOT PICKING UP A PIECE OF TRASH IS NOT A MORAL FAILING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Good grief  Who really cares???  Why should you care?  Now, not keeping game pieces together, that is a little bit different.  That is good stewardship.  But not hanging towels neatly....sigh....    You would have hated me as a kid or hated me now and thought me spoiled.  Sorry...  this just hits a nerve for me.  I'll never be good enough. 

 

Agree that it's not a moral failing. But I don't think the point is that it doesn't matter and one shouldn't care. People care about different things and are bothered by different things.

I think about it this way. Our kids often have concerns and get extremely upset about things that we, honestly, cannot get. Things bother them that seem silly and inconsequential to us. And truthfully, we don't have to agree. We don't have to say, "You're right, it is absolutely a violation and terrible that your brother made a face at you." Likewise, however, it is unhelpful to say, "That's a stupid thing to get upset about. You need to learn to get over it."

I think when I ask my kids to help me clean up they feel kind of like I do when they're complaining about someone making a face at them, or using their favorite pen. Like, seriously, you're getting all worked up about that? And inconveniencing me by seeking my help? It's not a moral failing that they don't do it without asking, but as long as there's someone in the house who doesn't like trash on the floor, you see a piece of trash and think, "Hey, that bothers Mom." And you pick it up. In return, I will help build a cereal box wall when your brother is making faces. Because I know. Averting your eyes only goes so far.

 

[Is this normal? Short short days, toddler helping constantly]

Aw, it almost sounds like you're trying to take on too much right now. And I don't mean in terms of schoolwork (although my K-er definitely does way less than 1 hour).

If I thought it was part of my job description to always know what came next for my kids, or to keep them entertained, I'd have gone crazy long ago. And while I don't like tantrums, sometimes immature people struggle with strong feelings. Siblings are constantly studying the fine art of getting along as well, and it's not always enjoyable for us parents, but better to do this all while you're young, right?

I am not anti-screentime in general and understand desperate times/desperate measures, but I have gone through periods with certain kids when it was quite clear that even the possibility of screentime worsened their behavior and was detrimental to their ability to self-entertain, especially if they started getting the message that complaining about boredom or driving me crazy would be rewarded that way. Do you have a backyard? Or, like, a room where the kids can just bounce off the walls a little?

(I think your kindergartener sounds pretty awesome with her talk about airplanes. Sometimes we're too busy to appreciate our own kids' coolness, especially when we crave silence, but being a chatterbox is usually a sign of joyfulness, so that is very sweet. Maybe get some big boxes and duct tape and let her build her own plane?)

[How did you teach your children discipline?]

There is plenty of hope for your young children!

I'm not so sure about your husband.

Sorry, I need some emoticons here. I'm sure he's a nice guy and wants to help you out here, not blame you. But especially as it appears you have 3 sons, I would merely ask what kind of role modeling they see in their father. What does he do when he walks by a cracker or a piece of paper? Is there an attitude of, "Hey, it's our job to keep our house clean! We all help out! I am going to bend down and pick this up. I don't care who dropped it, I don't care who walked by it, I'm a man, and a father, and it's my responsibility to keep this place looking great."

Or is an attitude of "Picking up stuff is a HORRIBLE BURDEN, no way am I going to pick up someone else's mess?"

It's also pretty hard to teach the lesson about valuing stuff to people who have lots of stuff and are regularly adding more. One thing I do is gradually prune. If they miss something and are looking for it, it returns, but otherwise things go into the back of the car and are donated. I don't think kids need to always know we're teaching them a lesson, and it doesn't have to be done in a mean-spirited way.

One potential result of always being on top of your kids to do things is that they will rebel once they are adults and have a little freedom to live in a pigsty. Another is that they will only be able to do things when reminded several times. Another is that they will develop relationships with partners who replicate the dynamic of constantly being on top of them to do things.

The people whom I know who are most successful with eliciting cooperation from their kids w/ chores seem to be the families where both parents pitch in with good attitudes. My husband and I have a long way to go on the good attitudes thing, but we notice the more that we work on it, the better things get.

[Beginner (3rd grade) Geometry]

Origami, tangrams, drawing and coloring tesselations on graph paper?

I also like MFA Boston's geometry in art resources, although they're aimed at older kids.

[Dr Hive - wwyd?]

That's really rough. Those meds sound like they need adjustment, at the very least.

While I agree with all the information about possible causes and the encouragement to see a doctor again, since you stated that she doesn't want you butting in with suggestions, I'm wondering what you can do to help motivate her without making her stop talking to you. In truth, whether she's depressed or has another medical condition, I'd say it's probably best with a young adult to follow your instincts and keep finding ways to show you care about her and are there for her without nagging-- sending care packages, writing letters, calling her just to say hi and ask how she's doing, etc. IOW, all the things you are obviously already doing since she is willing to talk to you about this. All the I want to help/how can I help? stuff that a mother does when we can't control the rest. (And my opinion is that even when everything else is horrible, there is a light in having a mother who loves you and is always there; and there is a light as a parent in keeping the lines of communication open.)

[falling down stairs]

Hugs. Head injuries can be scary. I myself once fell down the stairs holding a baby, and have witnessed a toddler falling when I was standing at the top unable to help. The feelings of maternal guilt are usually worse than the physical injury incurred, thank goodness. Hope you're both feeling better now.

[What do you believe is the healthiest diet for life?]

My personal opinion is that having a healthy diet, one that is nourishing and life-sustaining, is about how we eat.

Enjoying food, eating with gratitude in the peaceful and loving presence of other human beings, chewing slowly and truly tasting it, noticing when one feels hungry or sluggish or satiated or energetic, thinking about the people who raised our food or the plants that nourish us or the lives of the animals we are eating-- these are healthy habits. Accepting that perhaps we cannot always afford or expect to eat as we would like to (philosophically, or in terms of actual taste), but we can always afford gratitude.

[New book enthusiasm or need something different?]

I'm pretty sure this is the kind of concern Julie Bogart is referring to when she talks about throwing the homeschool hand grenade.

(If this is the daughter who just came out of a bad experience w/ public school somewhat unwillingly, you get bonus points. Yay!)

[How far do you let supporting one child's strength encroach on the rest of the family?]

Some families I know find a way to make those extra hours devoted to one child's activity into happy and memorable moments for the rest of the kids.

I have had to accept that for the moment, I am not one of those parents. I get stressed out.

But I think if you want to make it work, there are many examples of parents who make the car time, the meals and snacks on the road, and the time waiting around into valuable together time, and that would be one way to reframe it. The time I do spend waiting with my youngest kids during the older one's activities are actually pretty special when I am able to put my game face on.

The last thing I ask myself when it comes to investing time and money in a new activity is: if, after two or three or four or more years of this, my child just decides to drop it altogether and never do it again, will I consider this time/money well spent? Is there value in the practice of this activity even if there is no financial or career payoff? Can I communicate that to my kid so she doesn't feel burdened to continue just because the whole family has sacrificed so much for her?

[math in focus - online access through Houghton Mifflin Harcourt?]

Yes, completely free. (And haven't been spammed by them since either.)

[Seriously reluctant writer]

What are your expectations for him re: writing?

Sentences? A sentence? A word? Are you having him do copywork, or write creatively, or respond to a prompt?

Keeping in mind that many of us don't do any creative writing (that we don't transcribe for our kids as you did) or writing prompts or formal writing beyond very brief copywork at age 7, do your expectations seem reasonable?

If yes, then I'd address your expectations for him when he comes to the table for writing. If your intent is that he work on his focus, or concentration, or compliance, or respect, or whatever, that is a separate issue from the act of writing, and the best advice I can give you for that is hiding in the pantry and consuming large amounts of chocolate-- no, I mean, scaffolding. If these skills are the ones holding you up, sometimes a little self-care (not a new curriculum) is the answer.

An aside: Sometimes the best storytellers are the ones who have the hardest time coming to the table, I think. Their ability to imagine and enact preferable alternatives is just a little too good!

[Global Music Curriculum]

I've (semi) used the lessons from Smithsonian Folkways.

There is also All Around This World, and you can choose a weekly video class or interactive lesson plans. He also has a Youtube channel that you may have already come across!

[math in focus - online access through Houghton Mifflin Harcourt?]

Have you used the Virtual Sampling form yet? That's how I got full access to the Teacher's Guides and other materials.

[3rd and 5th grader math improvement/Woodcock Johnson scores]

On 4/6/2018 at 8:57 AM, borninthesouth said:

 I usually find that with maturity comes more understanding, even in math.  When they took the Woodcock-Johnson recently they were where I expected on everything except in Math Facts Fluency.  They were really low.  A part of me says, "they'll catch up as we continue to work on it." And a part of me says, "What the heck??!!  Why I am homeschooling if this is where we are at??"  The test administrator said that speed really hurt their scores.  Should I worry?  Is there anything else I can be doing to help or will it come with time?

 

Aw, no way! Not a "why am I homeschooling" moment!

You should absolutely NOT worry.

Memorizing math facts doesn't come naturally with time for many kids (including those in public school, as anyone who has taught high school math can assure you). There is a ton of practice in Math Mammoth and yet in MM3 she still insists that she wants kids to spend a week memorizing each table (IIRC). And I find the order she teaches them in, and her insistence on skip counting forward and backwards quickly and with mastery, extremely helpful. Do your kids enjoy any of the games she suggests at the beginning of the chapters on multiplication?

ITA that with maturity comes greater conceptual understanding, but the math facts are a handy tool for achieving greater understanding-- it's hard to push forward on new concepts when the brain hasn't yet made those automatic.

[How do you preview books for content?]

I have no idea how comprehensive they are, but would Plugged In or Redeemed Reader offer what you're looking for? I know you didn't ask for religious resources, but these are the sites I've come across that review books thoroughly for sexual content and violence. (This suggestion should not be taken as my endorsement of all of their rating criteria. I'd love to find a more progressive site that does this, because many of us who are fine with our kids reading about diverse kinds of families and belief systems share your view, OP, that our young but advanced readers should not be encountering some difficult and challenging topics without some degree of parental guidance or oversight. But at least reviews that provide heaps of information allow us to make those choices.)

[Did you grow up being driven to excel?]

The lack of educational support and encouragement my mom received from her own parents was probably the central culprit in the mistakes she made raising us.  I couldn't reach my own potential (which is so much more modest than my mother's aspirations) because I was too busy reaching hers. (I probably couldn't reach mine anyway-- the whole idea of having a certain potential sets one up for a whole lot of regret and perpetual dissatisfaction, doesn't it?)

I do think there are generational and cultural, as well as familial, differences in expectations about the involvement parents should have in a child's education.

[Let's argue about educational neglect again.]

2 hours ago, xahm said:

Having this conversation here is interesting to me because it could be said that these students are receiving a very classical education. They are studying old texts in the original languages. This education is focused on digging deep into this material, not on the "career readiness" that I've seen dismissed as an unworthy educational goal.

I don't think WTM style "classical" is at all neglect, let me be clear. But if someone were doing the same thing as the schools in the article but with Latin and Greek replacing Hebrew and Yiddish, with the assumption that with such a strong background in study and critical thinking, any knowledge gaps could be easily filled in adulthood, how would wet react to that?

Apologies if this makes no sense. I'm somewhat feverish and terribly sleep deprived.

 

Study, yes, and your question makes sense-- hope you're feeling better. I wanted to ask about critical thinking because I've seen it mentioned several times upthread, and your post was a convenient example. If there was a part in the original article where the author said he received a poor education except for the impeccable way these schools developed his critical thinking skills, I missed it-- otherwise I'm not sure where the assumption that these students are receiving training in thinking critically came from?

I don't believe critical thinking really is an isolated skill, or one that is transferable across disciplines and situations. Absent content knowledge, "critical thinking" is often just "criticism" or "judgment."

The classical model emphasizes content knowledge in a way I don't perceive to be true of the schools in this article. If a school is teaching kids "critical thinking" skills that are aimed at making them experts at arguing for and defending a single dogma or way of life, and never questioning that, and proactively inculcating them against any possible arguments, that's not "critical thinking."

[Let's argue about educational neglect again.]

8 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

So the question, if I understand it right, is should an education mostly comprised of studying religious texts (irrespective of religion) be classified as educational neglect? I don’t know. If one wants to be a Rabi, it probably isn’t, but if you want to go into engineering, it probably is. While I see no problem some people being educated this way the same way we see athlete neglecting education to train most of the day for example, it seems to be a problem when an entire  community receives only religious based education. Again, does a community have a right to decide what it wants to teach to their children? I think yes. The question becomes of parental rights and when those rights end. 

I think the state has an obligation to provide free education, which in some war ravaged countries isn’t always the case. Do I think parents have a right to opt for an education mostly driven by religion? Yes I do. And I am saying this as a person who doesn’t believe in any diety and thinks that religion is pure brainwashing. 

I side with individual freedom even if in this case the outcome is hurting many.

 

Well, what is freedom? What does it mean to "opt" into something? Can there be free will absent knowledge?

I am just struggling, mentally, to reconcile my idea of what it means to be a free individual, the place of this ideal in U.S. culture, and how we address subcultures that repress freedom of the individual to the extent of the one in the article.