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OnMyOwn

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  1. I think a lot of the confusion has come about for several reasons. First, because everything happened so quickly with the process that there was very little time for independent analysis and real information to reach the public. Second, first there was a House version, then a Senate version, and then the final bill, all in a very short period of time. And lots of things changed pretty dramatically from one version to the next. Third, there are lots of interacting provisions in the bill which means that two people with the same income could pay very different tax amounts. It now matters much more which state you live in, the ages of your children, and whether you receive your income from wages or a business, for example.

     

    Also, when different sources release distributional tables, they are not all doing it the same way. Some show percent change in federal tax while others show percentage change in after tax income. Some are attempting to model all provisions of the bill while others are leaving some out. Some model only two years while others model multiple years. And while some provisions in the bill are fairly straightforward to model (e.g. changing the tax brackets), others are quite a bit more complicated and require assumptions to be made. Major players, including the Joint Committee on Taxation, the Tax Policy Center, and the Tax Foundation, have all put out different tables.

     

    And just to briefly address your question about why the top are seeing a higher percentage change in after tax income, besides the brackets changing there were also changes to the alternative minimum tax and in general, it's now far more favorable to receive pass through income rather than wage income. And currently, the bulk of pass through income $ wise goes to the wealthy. I'm not completely sure because there is some interaction with the AMT, but the wealthy still itemizing might also come into play.

     

    I personally have several issues with the bill. First, it breaks almost all the rules of good tax policy. Second, it increases our deficit at a time when the economy is doing well and the unemployment rate is very low. Third, it was touted as a middle class tax cut and at times the administration promised the wealthy would not benefit at all. We see now that the bulk of the savings on the personal side go to the wealthy. And finally, I'm concerned that the cuts to follow will have a very disproportional effect on those who need the most help.

     

    For me, it's a lot like advocating for some sort of universal healthcare. My husband and I are very fortunate to have amazing double employer coverage for health, dental, and vision care for which we pay very little (less than $50 per month) with very low deductibles. So despite the fact that we would likely pay substantially more in taxes to fund such a program and possibly get worse coverage (I'm not really sure how it could get better than what we have), we still support it because we are more concerned about the greater good for our country, now and in the future. (That's not to imply that those who think differently aren't also concerned.)

     

    And just a final note about the corporate rate cuts. Like you, I hope the corporate changes will help keep and grow jobs here. But, the numerous interacting changes to the corporate code in the bill make understanding the personal side look like child's play. I've really just started to look into it, but from what I've read so far, there may unfortunately be incentives for some industries to do the opposite and some of the industries most favored by the bill aren't the ones creating the good, middle class jobs for those without college that are often discussed by politicians.

    Frances, I appreciate you sharing your viewpoint on the changes in this way. I am continuing to read about the bill. Thank you.

    • Like 1
  2. quote deleted by moderator

     

     

    With the top line, I think you've missed a few threads over the past years if you think most folks (both sides of the aisle) are only upset with the deficit now. Many of those threads end up deleted due to politics getting into them - or bashing - or whatever causes it, but I can't think of anyone who is only upset about it now. What's happening now is it's taking another major step in the wrong direction - for no solid reason (the economy is strong at the moment) - and mostly giving the benefits to the upper crust.

     

    How is it mostly going to the upper crust? If there's a tax cut, it would be nice if it were a fair tax cut, not a weekend holiday to the masses while the wealthy (esp those above 500K) get a car.

     

    I'm saving time quoting from Poppy (Post 358) in this thread:

     

    http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/664946-effect-of-tax-reform-on-large-families/page-8?do=findComment&comment=7929701

    If you make $50,000/year you will save around $870 annually.

    If you make $100,000/year you will save $2250.

    If you make $250,000/year you will save $6,500

    If you make $500,000/year you will save $21,000

    And it goes up from there.

    If it were proportional, the person making $500,000 would be saving $8700, not more than double that.

    Here's the thing. I've read so much about this being a tax hike on the middle class when it is clearly not that. The little table you just quoted shows what I've seen in that every bracket will be getting a tax cut, not just the wealthy. I've heard all the complaints about the corporate cuts, but, imo, those corporate cuts are necessary to keep businesses in the US. I am hoping very much it will stimulate the economy. The stock market has been doing very well just with the promise of these policies, but even that seems to bring mostly negative press, which is pretty stunning.

     

    You are right in that the middle class is getting more like a 2% tax cut and those on the top will get closer to 4%, but I do not know all the reasons why it is reflected that way. I don't trust the politicians, but I've learned that the media is now just another branch of politicians, so it is difficult to get information that reflects the truth. Because, here is the thing. If 80% of people are getting a tax cut, that would normally make a lot of people happy about the bill, deficit or not. You and I might be concerned about the deficit, but for many people, that is not even on their radar. So, the fact that so many people are unhappy about this bill, leads me to feel it is being grossly misrepresented for political purposes.

     

    As far as the impact on parents with college-aged students, we will see. I have a college aged student and all the calculators I've used show a tax cut in the amount I would expect based on what I've read at the Tax Policy Center. I have a very simple tax return so I'm not sure what could be hidden there, but we will see.

     

    I've also looked at the charts at the Tax Policy Center to see the longer term effects, and even in 2025, higher after tax income is being shown across the board. Not quite as high as this year, but still substantial.

    • Like 1
  3. I'm seeing a totally different reaction even in deep red territory where I live. Plenty of folks on both sides of the aisle don't like the bill because of the debt/deficit. They want to see that dealt with instead. They are NOT pleased the wealthy are getting more. That irks them a ton.

     

    Yes, there are some who just want to see the cash in their pockets and don't care about anything else or who even think the wealthy somehow deserve more, but they're fewer in number than I thought they would be.

     

    That's actually one thing that gives me hope about it all. (That many of my fellow Americans can see the bigger picture regardless of how we think about other things.)

    Well, my sister, who is a teacher and a single mom, will be very grateful if she sees an additional $2,000 each year as the result of this bill. It will make a significant difference for her.

     

    As far as the deficit, as I already said, we agree there. Though it doesn't seem as though there is too much concern in general as it increased almost $8 trillion dollars over the last Presidency without any tax cuts.

  4. Well, it is what it is. But I think those calculators are misleading and I think many are going to be surprised when it doesn't play out like the online simple calculators say they will.

    I actually think it is going to go the other way and that many are going to be surprisingly pleased after all the hysteria that's been in the media. I hope you are, too.

  5. This is an oversimplification of a very complex bill with numerous interacting factors and results that change pretty dramatically over time, especially for those with lower incomes. In dollar terms, the majority of savings go to the wealthy and corporations, and very quickly many of those with lower incomes will pay more. The Joint Committe on Taxation produced the distribution tables (effects by income level) for the bill and to really get an idea of who is getting tax breaks and when, it's important to look at the results for many years, not just the first.

     

    Congrats on the Christmas bonus!

     

    For those interested, the Tax Policy Center has the most complete calculator I've seen. But it's important to keep in mind that the results are only for the first year of the bill.

    Well, yes, I'm thinking any all discussions of the bills on these boards are gross oversimplifications. Of course the wealthy and large corporations will see the biggest cuts. If I pay $15,000 a year in taxes, it would be a bit ridiculous to give me a million dollar tax break, but if I pay $50 million in taxes, then a million dollar tax break might make sense.

     

    I'm not sure where you are getting that it is only for one year? The middle class tax cuts will be in effect until 2027 -- 10 years. At that point, they will most likely be preserved unless whatever party who is power refuses to extend them. Which would be very unpopular, don't you think?

     

    The Tax Policy Center says that 80% of Americans will see an average tax cut of $2,140 and that only 4.8% will see an increase.

     

    This bill is very unpopular with the democratic party and, as we've seen especially over the last couple of years, most of the major news outlets are grossly biased in that party's favor. That is why there is all the doom and gloom about a bill that is going to actually make many people happy once they realize what the effects are for them. Sad, but true.

     

    Now, as far as increases to the deficit, that is an issue I am concerned about, but it doesn't seem either party has the will to do anything about that. I would happily give up any tax cut if a serious attempt would be made to reduce the deficit, including the bonus my dh received as a direct result of this bill, but that isn't even up for discussion by either side.

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  6. We are going to be paying several thousand more, according to my DH, an accountant, who has access to real calculators that calculate everything, not just the simple ones online that show we will save money.

     

    I think we aren't getting the entire picture. We are losing our personal exemption for one thing.

     

    And we are not in the 1%, not by a long shot.

     

    And ha, my husband just got the smallest bonus he has ever had.

    Sorry to hear that, Dawn.

  7. Just thought I'd throw in our anecdote. I read this article to dh last night. He found a "new tax calculator" (I think linked to MarketWatch, or something like that?) then compared that to last year's return. It appears on first glance that we will pay $6000 less with the new tax code, even with four children in the college age range (18-24).

    I've read that 80% of Americans will get a significant tax break. And only 5% (should be mostly higher earners) will see an increase. My husband just received the first Christmas bonus he's had in 10 years.

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  8. My ds is not in college yet, but we're going through the application process and he's been accepted to every college he's applied to so far. He's not applying to top tier schools, but most are well-respected in our area (George Mason University, University of Mary Washington). He does have very good test scores because of all of the advantages of homeschooling and being able to make sure that he mastered the material he's been exposed to over the years, and he is a very hard worker. But, I have worried and fretted so much over this kid over the years because he has some lds and it is starting to look like that worry was unfounded.

     

    After years of reading on these boards, I had thought getting into college was a very cutthroat affair, but it really isn't so. Going through this process has made me realize that even our state flagship accepts at least 30% of applicants. Something else I've realized is that homeschooling in high school is great academic preparation for college, maybe especially so for a more average or typical student. Typical students in public school get most of their work and grades from being in class and participating and doing a small amount of work outside of class. College is the opposite of that and requires small amounts of class time with lots of work done independently outside of class. My son has been following the college model for years already by taking once-a-week online or coop classes and then having to schedule all his work for the week. I think having to make this shift can be a huge problem for students who have not had to do this in the past and I've only started to realize this year what a huge advantage this is going to be for my son.

     

    That's not to say that there won't be issues. I think going away to college is going to be a huge adjustment for him, but it's one I think he can make. Hopefully, I'll be coming back and posting in a couple of years about how well he is doing.

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  9. It can seem kind of crazy. The university near us will actually give my dd more credit and place her in a higher level of Latin based on the SAT subject test score she received before taking AP Latin than what they give if she gets a 5 on the AP exam. I'm not sure why.

     

    DD is doing both tests, though, because there are also many schools that will not give her any credit or even place her based on the SAT Subject test, but will give her credit based on an AP score. This is where it would really come in handy to know what school she is going to want to attend.

    And just for kicks, when we were completing the common app for my ds this year, we downloaded the Harvard app just to see if it was much different from the types of colleges my ds was applying to. The main difference was that they required two SAT subject tests.

    • Like 3
  10. Hmph. That's crazy. APs are so much harder than SAT subject tests(and often harder than your generic CC class). I'll have to give some thought to this particular loop.

    It can seem kind of crazy. The university near us will actually give my dd more credit and place her in a higher level of Latin based on the SAT subject test score she received before taking AP Latin than what they give if she gets a 5 on the AP exam. I'm not sure why.

     

    DD is doing both tests, though, because there are also many schools that will not give her any credit or even place her based on the SAT Subject test, but will give her credit based on an AP score. This is where it would really come in handy to know what school she is going to want to attend.

    • Like 2
  11. I don't see that where I live or work at all. I live in a very well-educated neighborhood with lots of doctors and professors and work with the most educated group at my fairly large (1k) employer. I can't think of a single person I know who looks down on those who choose blue collar professions. My husband and I, with three graduate degrees between us, would have been very happy had our son chosen to go the votech route. My dad was an amazingly skilled craftsman, and although he doesn't do it for a living, my husband is also. To a person, the people I know greatly admire those who can build, create, and fix things.

    Honestly, I don't know anyone who "looks down" on blue collar workers, either and I greatly admire people who can build, create and fix things, too. But, google it if you've never experienced it. I have a close friend who has never earned her degree and it has always been very tough on her.

  12. Regarding the higher change-in-major rate: I believe the part of the reason this happens is imbedded in Question #6. What is it like being a math major? What is mathematics like beyond calculus?

     

    Mathematicians seek out patterns and use mathematical structures as models. Mathematicians often want to prove that certain statements about mathematical structures are true, and if the models are good approximations of the real world, mathematical reasoning can provide insight about nature and make predictions about the world around us. Mathematics involves a great deal of logic, abstraction, problem-solving, counting, calculation, measurement, and the systematic study of shapes and motion. Many math majors and students of advanced mathematics tend to use words such as "beautiful", "powerful", and "useful" when describing how they feel about the mathematics they learn.

     

    Linear Algebra is probably the first course in which students are universally asked to prove that certain statements about mathematical structures are true. Sure, proofs have been there all the time. Students see them. Teachers explain them. And some courses require students to dig into them more than others. However, before LA I think many successful students get away with tuning out that proof business and just waiting for the algorithm. "Just tell me what to do: What formula do I use? How does it work? Where are the practice problems? (Watch how fast and accurate I am!)"

     

    Sure, the practice problems involve a level of increasing creativity in order to solve them, so that's what a lot of successful students think mentors mean when they make a statement like this (#8): The study of mathematics involves a great deal of creativity, and it is not uncommon for math students to also be interested in other creative endeavors, such as art or music.

     

    Although I think in general that last statement can be misunderstood by high schoolers. I think we are failing kids on that one. Few kids come out of high school thinking that musicians make their living playing scales. Musicians aren't technicians. There's more to it. And few artists are painting by number. Kids have a decent idea of what it takes to succeed as a musician or an artist. I don't think they realize what that means when it comes to mathematics. (AND - many music majors peel off during or after college-level music theory because it's their first non-technician musical activity. Now they get it. They discover that music isn't what they thought it was. I'm sure art programs have something similar.)

     

    Back to math undergrads: Because of sequencing, it's important to get to Linear Algebra - usually in year two - in order to have time to get to the good stuff in yrs 3 & 4. (See Note below regarding LA.) So most kids take LA prior to things like Probability and Statistics. Those are tucked around the edges. So if LA was unnerving, many students can feel re-grounded when they land back in those plug-n-chug courses like Probability and Statistics; although by then, most are starting to realize that something is starting to shift. Now when they see those proofs, they know that understanding them makes the difference. You can't tune them out and wait for the algorithm. You're going to get lost. Depending on the school and the course, often an algorithm-only student can pass. But they can't land an A. And they know that something is amiss.

     

    Then they hit Abstract Algebra and Real Analysis. That's where the road divides, and students are forced to peel off. Mathematics isn't really so much about being a human computer: find a formula and then work through 15 problems using that formula. We have software for that. The subject is really about proving something is true and then using that certainty to prove that something else must be true - and that can be mind-blowingly beautiful. Stunning. AND once you know it to be true, the irony is that you don't need to work an example. It's a moot point. It can't NOT be true. You don't even want to work an example. Why reduce perfection to a simpler form? You just sit there and wallow in the immensity of the always puddle. Feeling the warm wonderfulness of certainty in an uncertain world.

     

    Getting to that moment takes so much time and effort. "Reading" mathematics is a slow and deliberate process. The more advanced the text, the more the reader must bring to the table. No one expects Shakespeare to start with a discussion of vowel phonics and syllabication. The bard assumes you bring a wealth of understanding to his first utterance. Same with mathematics. Each volume is shelved somewhere in the hierarchy, this branching tree that is popping out and expanding at a dizzying pace. People often liken it to music, but the biggest similarity I have found is the way it works in my head. If I'm practicing my scales and my left hand instinctively feels comfortable flying up the keys in G major, then sharing Mozart's ideas certainly becomes easier. It's just quicker. I can do that with little reflection. I understand immediately what he means when he smashes that blur of ink onto the bass clef. Clear intent across time and space. (And if I know what I'm doing, Mozart's blur means something completely different from Chopin's blur. Different intent. Reflect. Process. Play.) In any case, I am free to focus on the bigger idea that Mr. M. is sharing. You can feel your brain shift gears as you move between the mechanics and the art form. That happens when reading mathematics as you reflect on everything that is stored in the various filing cabinets in your brain as you are "reading." Connections. I catch myself handling the ideas that I have come to own. First the recognition. Five symbols on the page, an idea in a language. They mean something. The symbols are a reminder of something I know to be true. Finding that something in my own catalog is the next step.

     

    Sometimes it's just an inventory process. Yes. That. Before. After. Where does it land? Why? Got it. Next idea... (Next building block in the proof.) Sometimes the process grinds to a crawl because I can't quite remember the details of why that must be, so I challenge myself. Can I sketch it out and try to pull that mental file to the top of the stack? After all, I shouldn't really be using this block unless I have confidence in its substance. (Sketching it out yourself is the best way to solidify its certainty within the structure of THIS idea. Convince yourself.) If not? Dang it! Best to go look it up. Find it. Read it. Got it. Close the book. Continue with the intent of doubling back the next day to sketch it out again to solidify it. Back to reading. Where was I? Oh yes. This link in the chain that produces an understanding of THIS proof. Again: Previous link, this link. Got it. Next line of the proof...

     

    Sometimes I have to stop reading. I'm lost. Time to back up and fill in the gaps. I slide the book back onto the shelf with the hope that I will make it back before this carcass gives up. It's like meeting someone you are eager to talk to, but then you realize that you aren't ready to listen to them. You can hear the words, but you can't find meaning. There's no resonance. It's all just sounds. You need something else first. So rather than fight the process, you shelve the person and their ideas. Time to grow into your own boots. And then you cast about for the steps between what you know and what you just bumped into. Process. Can takes weeks or years. Not for the faint of heart. Can't rush it. Can't move forward till you are ready. Oh well. Time to enjoy the journey cause the destination just faded into the distance. Time for baby steps. Humbling but beautiful. Facing ones own mortality as you realize that you are definitely going to run out of time before you have a chance to enjoy all the flavors available. The difference between big ideas and small ones. And ones that are bigger than big.

     

    Sometimes my "reading" slows to a crawl because I make a connection I hadn't made before. You know it when it happens. Now there are two or more ideas in your head that were never part of the same thing. But of course they were all along. You just didn't know it. But now they so obviously fit together. Everything has changed and it's almost as if they have always been together. Except you know they weren't just a moment ago. But now they are. Everything else seems to have sharpened into focus just a tad more. It always was; you just didn't know it. But there it is - as clear as anything you've ever known. When that happens, I usually try to pause to savor the event. It's special. And very satisfying. (I'll admit it - sometimes I've cried. What a rush!) I can feel the spaces inside my own head. It's as if the ideas stored there have a location. A structure. They are connected. And now reconnected in a new way. Such blissful coalescence. Because so much of my experience with that muscle is spent banging around in there trying to remember if we need toilet paper while standing in the supermarket, it is incredibly satisfying to be reminded that this organ is capable of SO much more. Even at my age. In fact, it's only because of age that there are so many fantastic treasures tucked away in this attic. Such bliss. Such peace. And it's all mine! I'm the only one who will ever be in here. Probably the only thing I can ever truly call my own. Such privacy.

     

    That happens very infrequently. Most of the time reading math is just work. I do it cause I'm waiting for the next "high." (It's THAT good!) However, to build all that? Takes discipline. Diligence. Hard work - you can feel the stress it puts on the muscle. Glorious! But not the same thrill you get from doing something repetitive like cranking out a page of examples. The hand just moves - with only casual mental effort. And it feels so productive - especially when it's easy for you and other people think it's hard. VERY rewarding. What an ego pump! But that's not REALLY what mathematics is about. Mathematicians are tasked with creating something new. Pure mathematicians prove new things. Applied mathematicians find new ways to use those new certainties. Neither spends her time cranking out examples and then checking to see if she got the right answer. There are NO answers in the back of the book. That thrill of being "right" that kids who are good at math in high school feel - the little endorphin rush that the smart kids get 20+ times every night doing their homework? That's over. A lot of math majors discover that they love arithmetic, not mathematics. They peel off.

     

    An example:

     

    1 = 1

    1+3 = 4

    1+3+5 = 9

    1+3 +5+7 = 16

    1+3+5+7+9 = 25

     

    Did you notice that 1, 4, 9, 16, and 25 are all perfect squares?

     

    Arithmetic asks, "What about the next one? Is that a perfect square too?" Viola! Yes, 36. But maybe the next one will fail... nope still a square. Then +13, +15, +17... Endorphins. Speed. Rush. Faster. Dang, I'm good at calculating things in my head. I feel so smart right now. Next one! The irony is that no matter HOW fast you go, you're never closer to being done. And you are no closer to answering the question.

     

    Yup. That.

     

    Mathematics asks, "Is this a coincidence? Will this always work? Will the next sum always be a perfect square? How can I be certain? (And I'm not talking about a pile of examples where I give up and decide that it probably always works? I'm talking about how can I be sure!)"

     

    Cranking out the next example is easy. Certainty is harder; but it's worth finding. And the journey is glorious!

     

    Peace,

    Janice

     

    Enjoy your little people

    Enjoy your journey

     

    Regarding Undergrad Linear Algebra: Keep in mind that a good undergrad LA course makes it clear to students that they are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. These waters are deep. And the more you know, the better. Ask Sheldon Axler. He thinks we are doing students a great disservice by letting them even HAVE the determinant as undergrads.

    This is great information. My dd is spending a bit of time each day exploring different college majors to get an idea of what each is all about. Recently, she's been talking about double majoring in the classics and math. She's taking calculus in her sophomore year and we've started exploring opportunities for her for next year at the local cc or university. However, she has only been exposed to the plug and chug sort of math and she does enjoy getting the problems correct, lol. Right now, she is using Saxon and one career option she has looked at is being an actuary. Maybe that would be perfect for her, but I've been wondering about how to expose her to more problem solving, The obvious would be to use AOPS to see if she is interested in growing in this area, but would AOPS still serve that purpose if she has already finished calculus? Any other suggestions for exploring the creative side of math at this point?

    • Like 1
  13. Thanks for the link to the samples. Looking at them, I do like the Mosaik book tons more than Komm mit or Deutsch Aktuell. But ouch, the prices.

     

    ETA: Just ordered the Practice workbook for Komm mit - just to see what the heck's in it and if it somehow could make that old program more workable. But I'm still wondering how to deal with the audio files. How does the teacher assign them to you? Do you have an online license, or ? Is it just my computer that won't play them (I can watch the old videos fine, they're just grainy).

    Both of my kids have used Vista books for their Spanish classes. Yes, they are expensive, but it seems like everything is when you are outsourcing for high school. Anything with an online component is going to be pricey, but I think there are enough benefits to it when learning a foreign language that it is worth it.

    • Like 2
  14. My kids took the AP Computer Science A exam because that helps take care of one elective for high school since all colleges (including overseas) understand AP exam scores but may not understand DE courses. Their Edhesive scores were probably a B (high 80s or very low 90s, didn’t write the grade down as we intend to do credit by exam).

     

    My oldest used his AP Calculus BC exam score to meet the prerequisite for his current CTY JHU Linear Algebra course. I had to upload a scanned copy of his score report when registering for the course as proof of meeting the prerequisite.

     

    Do you know if most/some colleges will give your son credit for the CTY JHU linear algebra course?  Just curious since I'm soon going to be trying to figure out what to do with my dd for math.  

  15. I've had both of my kids do more than one run through algebra and I think it really benefitted them.  If she doesn't want to do another complete algebra program, how about just continuing to practice a bit each day with aleks.com?

     

    My dd has a friend in ps who decided she wanted to be an engineer in 5th grade.  She is in a special STEM school and she took algebra a second time over the summer to really solidify her understanding as well.

    • Like 2
  16. DS is just finishing up his first semester and has already changed his major from business to philosophy. I am not upset--in fact I am glad, because if he had asked me in the beginning I would have steered him away from business.

     

    If a child was a long way into a degree program and a change would mean a significant increase in the time to graduation, I would counsel the child to consider finishing the original degree and then pursuing a graduate degree in the second area of interest.

    Is that always, or even usually, possible? I may start a new thread on this because it’s something I’ve been wondering about.

    • Like 1
  17. I want my kids to choose whatever path is best for them. But, I will worry over certain choices and whether they will wind up happy with them in the long run. My ds has not decided what his major will be yet. Both of the directions he is thinking about relate to his hobbies and interests, but if he selects history, which is his true passion, I am going to worry that he will regret that choice down the line. I won't discourage him from it though, because maybe he can make it work and I don't want to steal that opportunity from him.

     

    However, while I am trying to keep an open mind and let him make his own decisions, I do feel uneasy about it. It doesn't help that when I was talking to my brother a couple of weeks ago about letting my son pursue his interests, he mentioned that all the friends he has who are floundering followed their interests without being realistic. That has led me to encourage my son to take another look at getting a teacher certification if he chooses history. Teaching is a tough field to be in these days, but there are huge perks such as lots of time off and a pension plan.

    • Like 1
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