My youngest son turned 6 in May. If we were following the traditional route, he would have been in PS kindergarten this year. However, based on his lack of readiness for reading, maturity level, and physical size when he turned 5 last May, I probably would have waited a year to enroll him. So I didn't fill out paperwork with the county and didn't really consider him a "kindergartner" this year, though he was enrolled in his second year of Classical Conversations' Foundations program and was present with us (me and 2 older brothers) at home when we were doing "one room schoolhouse" stuff together...well, at least until he would become disruptive and was asked to go play in the street in a different room. So the obvious thing seems to be that I would enroll him with the county as a kindergarten homeschool student for Fall 2017, and he will be 6 when he starts "kindergarten" with me in the fall. I'm just wondering if there is any reason NOT to do that; that is, to go ahead and enroll him as a first grader. He is learning to read now, and I plan to work with him through the summer so that his reading (I'm guessing) will be roughly average for kids that are completing kindergarten right now. But I'm also not really in a hurry, so... FWIW he has two older homeschooled brothers. One is completing what we're calling 5th grade this year...turning 12 this summer so he really could have been in 6th grade, but that's a different story. He'll be entering Classical Conversations' Challenge program this fall, which kinda sorta makes him a 7th grader, thus catching his grade level up with his age if that makes sense. The other brother is 10 and finishing 4th grade this year. Seems to me it should be fine to just call this new guy a kindergartner this coming year, but I could be missing some glaring implications of that...so if there are any, could someone fill me in? Thanks!

Ok, so if I understand correctly, this book... https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/0153551267/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A2GFG5PH49IIR6 would go with the printable activity sheets found here... http://www.harcourtschool.com/menus/health_fitness/planning_resources.html Right? Amazon does sell an activity book that appears to correspond to the textbook, but if the printables linked above are the same thing, then I could save ten bucks.

I just need something my guys can work through relatively independently, to make the county happy. Any suggestions?

I'm looking for a workbook-based Science curriculum for my 4th and 5th grade boys, and CLE is looking pretty good. However, I'm curious about a couple of things: 1. On their website, in addition to the 10 Light Units for each grade, they also offer a textbook for fifth grade, "God's Marvelous Gifts." Is this book necessary in order to use the Light Units? Or are the Light Units all-inclusive in that each lesson would have something to read/look at and then questions/exercises to do? Looking in the CLE catalog, it looks like maybe 5th grade does require the textbook...right? 2. For a family that hasn't emphasized a ton of science so far, would it be beneficial to let them work through the earlier grades first, even though they would probably be really easy? I was looking at the Scope and Sequence (https://www.clp.org/documents/5748/original/2015-2016_Elementary_Scope_and_Sequence.pdf) and it looks like all the grade levels have some really great topics. Besides, we do have a 5yo in the house who might enjoy looking at the earlier books. Or...should we just dive in at 4th or 5th grade? 3. Can anyone give me a basic description of what a lesson in the Light Units would look like? I can't find any sample lessons or anything on the website. Thanks.

Sorry, all these acronyms...what is MCT? Thanks...

Oh yeah, I should add one more thing. Yes, my older two are at a point that they are doing a decent chunk of work independently. So I do have some time that I can do stuff with the younger guy. So it's not a matter of having time to do it; it's a question of how to do it in a way that doesn't replicate the unhealthy patterns that have been set with the older two.

I have three boys, ages 11, 10 and almost-6. we’ve been homeschooling for almost three years now, and so far the youngest guy has just kind of been along for the ride. And what he’s observed from his brothers is that “school is horrible, I hate school, when can we be done, am I done yet? Can I NOT do (insert subject here) today?†I’m sure this is my fault, because of several things: 1. I didn’t allow a period of “deschooling†after pulling them from public school after 2nd and 1st grade; I was too afraid that they would “fall behind.†We jumped right in, despite warnings from homeschooling friends to go easy. 2. I’ve tried too hard to keep up with what I thought kids in PS were probably doing. (I know this was a mistake; I don’t need any sermons on this.) I have been afraid that we would come up deficient due to missing something. 3. I’ve unintentionally set up “school†(and chores for that matter) as the currency by which they “earn†the things they want like screen time. You can play video games when school is over and chores are done. I know a lot of parents do this, and I’m not saying it’s all bad. In fact, I’m sure I’ve gotten advice on these boards regarding managing screen time, where screen time is only allowed if school is done etc. But as a result, in my boys' minds, now the only reason to learn something is to get something. Learning is NOT considered rewarding in any way; in fact, I almost think they view learning as punishment. Even though I’ve been aware since they were little of the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation, and have WANTED to find what would motivate them intrinsically, I haven’t found it. So I resort to what I know: you have to do your work; look at the PS kids, they have to do xyz, and besides, if you do your work, you’ll get to play. Stop complaining, you don’t know how good you have it, if you were in PS you wouldn’t be getting a snack right now, etc. etc. etc. 4. I’ve (again, unintentionally) set up a dichotomy of learning in their lives, wherein if anyone sniffs out a “learning†agenda in ANYTHING, they run the other direction. What they don’t realize is that they ARE learning, regardless of what they’re doing…but I guess they want to learn what they want to learn, and what they want to learn isn’t what the grownups want them to learn. There are a number of things that might have been considered “fun,†but since they caught on that I was counting them as “school†(you know, the almighty county review—have to have something to check off each box), they now want nothing to do with them. Honestly, I suspect unschooling might have been a better choice for my guys. I’ve read some blogs about self-directed learning, and those kids always seem so brilliant and cool and happy to be pursuing what they are passionate about. However, I’m not comfortable with that model for me as the teacher, because without the structure of subjects and boxes to check, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t stay focused and the things that my kids would pursue, which they are truly passionate about, would be video games. All day. ANYWAY. All this is a backdrop for my question of how to avoid repeating these mistakes with my almost-6-year-old. I’ve delayed formalized schooling for him, for the reasons described above. I do NOT want to roll him in to the current mentality of our homeschooling, and I want him to learn because he WANTS to learn. Yet, because that mentality exists and he’s been part of it (as an observer) from day one, I feel like he’s already poisoned. There are a ton of things that he could be doing. He could be working through Explode the Code, or Saxon kindergarten math, or any number of early curricula. All I would have to do is say “ok, let’s do this lesson, and then you can have your game time.†But I’ve seen where that setup leads, and I haven’t wanted to take him there. So the question is, how do I get started with him, and avoid the mistakes I’ve made with the others? Because while it’s been ok so far to delay formal instruction so far, I don’t think I can really delay beyond this year. He’ll be six, for crying out loud. Besides, he is BORED. He has nothing to do while I’m working with the other two, and doesn’t entertain himself well independently so he constantly interrupts with legitimate requests like “can you take me to the playground?†and also just plain ol’ disruptive behavior. Other mamas are so cute, coming up with worksheets and busy boxes for their preschoolers to do independently while they work with the olders…this guy has wanted nothing to do with any of that. He is allergic to coloring and drawing, so we’ll probably be dealing with some delays/deficits in hand muscle strength etc. Again, this is my fault—I think I could have instilled a like for these things, if I had modeled by sitting down and saying “let’s color together…†but I was too &%&^%$ busy cracking the whip over with my other two and never seemed to make time to do that with him. In retrospect, I probably should have just put him in preschool. At least that way he wouldn't have been so bored. But I didn't, and that ship has now sailed. I hope I’ve owned my mistakes enough here that no one is going to tell me why this is all my fault. I also don’t need to be told to stop beating myself up. It’s not all bad—my older sons are learning, they don’t hate life, they do understand (to an extent) that education is just something that has to be done and I think they (mostly) appreciate the flexibility that comes with homeschooling and the opportunities that they’ve had which their PS friends have not. But regarding the atmosphere I’ve described above, what I’m looking for is how can I turn this ship around? I feel like I have one more chance with this little guy, and I don’t want to mess it up like I have with the others.

I like what you all are saying. I think it boils down to the fact that incentives can be really helpful while a child is still in the "hard" phase of learning to do something. It helps to get them through to the point that they're good enough at it to find the intrinsic reward in the mastery of a skill. Thanks, I can now feel better about working with my kids' various currencies. Since sugar is a big one, I guess we need to add in extra tooth brushing as well! :001_rolleyes: I'm still not sure about the little guy though. Can't decide if I want to start offering incentives for "school" work now, or just wait till next fall when he is 6. Suppose I could incentivize starting "early" this year, and see how far it gets us.

There are a number of things that my boys will do pretty happily if I offer an incentive, but only begrudgingly and with much moping and whining without the incentive. In general, I shy away from rewards because well, I feel like they cultivate a sense of entitlement. I'm not saying I don't incentivize at all, but I haven't traditionally been a "do your lesson and I'll give you a lollipop" or "finish a workbook and we'll go to the store and buy something" kind of mom. But should I be? Example: My 11 and 9yo have had a really hard time learning to say the multiplication tables and memorizing their multiplication facts. They can skip count by any number up to 15, but for a LONG time now I've been trying to get them to master the actual tables; i.e. "One times 12 is 12, two times 12 is 24, three times 12 is 36" etc. This is very challenging for them, because by the time they say a fact, they lose track of which one they just did so they don't know which one to do next. Whether not mastering this is worthwhile or not is a different discussion; I'm just raising it as an example. We have had lots of drama over this, where they get so frustrated over losing their place, and God forbid there should be any interruption or distraction---the break in concentration provokes a near-meltdown. HOWEVER. Enter chocolate chips. Yesterday, as an experiment I said "all right. For each multiplication table you recite in entirety, fluently without drama, you may eat that number of chocolate chips. 1s table, one chocolate chip. 6s, six chocolate chips etc." And voila, 11yo recited 1s through 12s and 9yo got through the 11s. Even the 5yo got in on the action. Thus far, he has been resistant to any sort of "performance." He doesn't want to recite squat, doesn't want to do a reading lesson, doesn't want to do anything requiring any sort of output from him. So far I've pretty much just rolled with it, because I know he's learning by being in the room, by being read to and by playing. But as soon as this chocolate chip thing got going, all of a sudden HE wanted to do something to earn some! So he sat down with me and practiced skip counting by 2s until he was able to do it. This is something he's been exposed to for 2.5 years now, listening to his brothers and other kids in our coop skip count, having skip counting songs playing in the background for hours on end. You would think he would just know the times tables by osmosis now. But no, we had to intentionally practice---which he was willing to do with chocolate chips being dangled before him. I just KNOW he would be reading in a month if I offered him a piece of candy for each reading lesson completed. He totally has the ability; he just doesn't want to do it. And I don't want to make it in to a battle of the wills...at least not yet. I feel like there are many things that they could all learn, if only they wanted to. Nothing seems to turn on their "wanters" except sugar and video games. I remember with dog training that rewards are used while a skill is being learned, and then once the skill is learned the incentive isn't necessary anymore. Dog sits, gets a nibble of hot dog. Heel, nibble on the hot dog, etc. until the dog understands the meaning of the words and then does it without the reward. Is this transferable to humans? If my 11yo, who I believe (and have been told) is rather gifted musically, could just get to a certain level with piano mastery, I believe he would enjoy it and the good feeling of mastering a song (and verbal praise from others) would be incentive enough to get him to practice. However, right now he has no motivation to do the work. I just know that if I offered him a piece of candy for doing x-y-z, he would totally do it. As things stand now, to get 15 minutes of practice out of him involves a complete change in mood and sometimes tears. Oh, and just so you know...I'm really not good with "systems" and incentive charts. I can't keep up with them. Maybe if I just had one kid...but with three, I just can't. Immediate incentives are doable for me because you don't have to keep track of anything...but I'm just not sure if I want to go that route. What say you?

I don't know if it's a medical problem. I'm asking other parents if they think it sounds like one, or if in their experience this is usually just a kid not wanting to do their work. It sounds like you think it may be medical. I do have him scheduled for a behavioral evaluation at our pediatricians' practice; do you think that would be a good context for bringing up this issue, or does an OT eval need to be a separate appointment? The nurse that scheduled the appointment mentioned ADHD/ADD as one of the main things they screen for, but said that we could also discuss the arm issue and the doc can evaluate whether OT would be needed.

That's true. You are reminding me that I've been meaning to look into correct desk/chair height for kids related to their size. How do we make sure we get this right?

Nope...no issues with activities that he enjoys! ;) But yeah, it could well be tension. He is quite tense about schoolwork in general.

Whenever it's time to do any writing, typing or piano practice, my son comes down with a serious strain of Tired Hand Disease known as Tired Arm Disease. Serious question. Do you think this needs medical attention, or would More Exercise of the Writing, Typing and Piano Practice Muscles be a better treatment plan? His current exercise regimen (most days) includes a page of Pentime cursive, a math lesson (usually 45 minutes worth which includes some writing but not that much), 15 minutes of typing practice (which we often don't get to), and 15 minutes of piano practice. Thanks!

Thank you all for answering. I think I have my answer---yes, check the math! I just edited the title of my post so that people might not feel the need to spend their time answering this question anymore. Again, thank you.

I'm trying to figure out what else I can eliminate from our daily work to make things more doable. And I'm wondering if checking my kids' math could be one of them. If I stop checking, should I have them check their own work with the answer key? And if they find that they get an answer wrong, how can I ensure that they will look it over and try to find their mistake? Or...does it even matter if they do that? I have one guy that I don't necessarily trust to admit it when he isn't getting something; i.e. he might say that he checked his work and found no mistakes, or find mistakes but not really think about what he did wrong, just for the sake of being able to move on and be done. What if their work wasn't checked at all, and I just told them they better be sure they are getting it (and asking me for help if they need it), because if they fail the quiz they get to repeat it? I have 2 boys, ages 9 and 11 (roughly grades 4 and 5), and we switched to CLE this year. I have them both in the 400 series because the 11yo has struggled with Math so I've dialed it back to try to rebuild his confidence. Thanks!

Some months ago, I accidentally got an Audible subscription and we've been autopaying $15 and getting one credit per month. I've spent some of the credits, but I have 3 left and we want to cancel it tonight before we get billed again tomorrow. I believe we can still listen to items in my library even if we cancel the subscription. Any recommendations? I have 3 boys ages 11, 9 and 5 and I want to get stuff for them to listen to. I already have The Once and Future King, The Green Ember, Ember Falls, the Black Star of Kingston, the Blue Fairy Book, the first Riordan Magnus Chase book, and the Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde (it was free today on Kindle with Whispersync). Thanks!

Hence, my post! Trying to figure out how to drive this message home. There have to be stories or movies that explore this idea. But I can't think of any.

Oh I really like this. You are so right. "Approached reasonably with a sustainable backup plan..." nice and balanced. Thanks!

Thanks, everybody, for your input. These are some good ideas. I did want to clarify a bit, though, after interviewing one of my sons in a bit more depth about what he means by "music producer." When they say "music producer," it's about the equivalent of us telling our parents 30 years ago that we were going to be rock stars or rappers when we grew up. What my kid really wants is to be an "EDM Artist;" one of these guys who creates music on a Digital Audio Workstation (note they do not actually play instruments), and then gets really famous and goes and "performs" this music (i.e. pushes buttons on electronic equipment) on a stage with million dollar special effects in front of thousands of drooling fans who pay so much money to see his performances that he doesn't need a budget or proper grammar or any of that boring stuff. So maybe a better way to ask the question is "what do I say to my kid who thinks he's going to be a rock star when he grows up?" (And I know, it's the whole lecture about the actual odds of him succeeding on that path to an extent that he can even buy himself a bag of beans...but predictably, lectures and reasoning don't get me very far with these guys.)

I'm sure this has been discussed here before, but I'm not sure what to search for. My boys have entered a phase of questioning the "why" of everything we do academically. They both think they are going to be music producers when they grow up, so they won't need math, grammar, writing etc. They don't question history or science as much, I think because they don't hate those subjects as much. I'm not discouraging them from pursuing their dreams, but how do I effectively convey to them that a well-rounded education is useful for more than just your future career? And that they might need math and writing more than they currently think, regardless of what career they pursue? If anybody can point me to previously posted relevant threads, great. Or, discuss here. Thanks!

This is the guy who as a 9yo would spoil our read aloud time by taking the book up to his bed and finishing it. Now, he is only interested in graphic novels and can't find any traditional books that interest him. I think his reading comprehension is pretty good for his age. And, I know that there are some great graphic novels out there and they can be quite sophisticated and beneficial for developing vocabulary and other literacy and thinking skills. But it makes me nervous that they are ALL he wants to read. Is he going to have trouble soon, when academics require him to read texts that demand more sustained attention? Should I be trying to get him to read traditional books? If so, what else can I try besides exposing him to a wide variety of genres and subject matters and trying a range of reading levels (is he challenged too little, or too much?), and soldiering on with various read alouds even when he really doesn't even want to listen to them? Or just be happy that he wants to read at all, and trust that he will eventually widen his horizons on his own?

My two boys have discovered a new passion: creating music using FL Studio. I don't necessarily see anything wrong with this, however... I wonder if the time they spend on this is time NOT spent on learning an actual musical skill (and should I care?). I think they are goofing around with beats, notes, and an unlimited supply of sound effects and putting them together in ways that sound good to them. So it's a fun creative outlet. But is it really just sort of a glorified video game, resulting in more time in the day that their eyeballs are glued to a screen with little developmental or educational value? Or, is it contributing in a beneficial way to their musical, artistic or cognitive development, in a similar way to playing outside, painting a picture with real paper and paint, or tinkering with an actual musical instrument? Any opinions out there?

Ok, I know he's just 5. In fact, he just turned 5. And he's a boy. And, granted, I really haven't worked with him much at all on letters and their sounds. I bought AAR pre reading but he has had very little interest in it and I have been loathe to force it on him. Same with Explode the Code "Get Ready for the Code." He has also spent a decent amount of time on Reading Eggs and Starfall. I don't think he got very far through the levels of them, though...he sort of just bounced around according to whatever interested him---mostly the little games. If I tried to do the actual lessons with him, he would get tired of it pretty quickly because I wanted to go through methodically and actually do all the steps. :001_rolleyes: But when I do try to work with him, he can't remember letters or sounds to save his life! Even within one session, it could go like this: What's this letter (the letter P, to which he has been exposed many, many times)? I don't know. It's P. What is it? P. What sound does it make? I don't know. It's "p." Can you say that? p. Good. What's this letter? O. (he does know that one fairly consistently, though he did forget it several times during today's session) What sound does it make? "o" (short o sound) Ok, back to this letter...what is it? I don't know. It's P. Remember? We just talked about it. What is it? P. What sound does it make? I don't know. and round and round we go. If I teach a sound, then go on to another letter, and then come back to the first sound, he does not remember it. No matter how many times we do it. We must have visited the letter "P" and its sound about ten times, and he still could not remember it if we left it for even one other letter. Again---I know he's only 5. But...is it normal for a kid to just not be able to remember something that he was JUST TOLD 15 seconds ago, even after a lot of repetitions? ETA: I know that the above method isn't necessarily a recommended way of teaching letters and their sounds. It's just something I do sometimes when we're reading a simple book, to see if he can recognize/remember them---which I'm finding out he apparently can't!

Yes. :) Thank you.

WTH? After I-don't-know-how-many-exercises in which my kid has ALWAYS started subtracting in the ones column, determining from there if the tens column needed to be regrouped and so on, BAM. All of a sudden he's subtracting 132-76 and wants to start by regrouping the 100s column. Not that it makes any difference in this particular problem, but I need to tell him the reason that we always start in the ones column when subtracting. While I've been typing this, he's tried to prove me wrong by showing that you can also start from the left when subtracting 360-82 in columns, and get the same answer as when you start from the right. On a good day, I could probably explain this but at the moment I can't. I know it has to do with place value and I probably need to get out some Unifix cubes or something, LOL. Can you help? What we need is a simple example of when it DOESN'T work to start regrouping in another column besides the 1s. Thanks.