That's fair. I was just trying to make the point that children will not choose on their own everything that is good for them. Sometimes they need a push to try.

Update: Had a heart to heart talk with my son. He said he didn't talk to the teacher at first b/c he is a "stranger." Good point! I explained to him that it's ok to talk to a stranger when we are there with him. Regarding the "bo-ring" and "rotten" comments, he didn't really say what that was about. He said he didn't like that everyone was running around acting crazy and punching. I laughed and said, "But that's your favorite thing to do!" Then he said he doesn't want to "fight." I asked if he was scared he would get punched/kicked/hurt, and he said "yes." So then I said, "But you love to wrestle and rough house with people," and he said "just daddy." So I think he is afraid he will get hurt. It's funny b/c that is exactly what my mom said I was concerned about when she put me on the soccer team in Kindergarten. I kept saying "This is so silly - people running around kicking each other. Someone might get hurt." Then I kicked the ball in our own team's goal during a game. My mom encouraged them to make me equipment manager and I did that the rest of the season lol! But I think it was good that I finished. I guess a lot of this comes from my fear that he will struggle socially in some of the ways that I have. We are quite alike, and I had so hoped he would be spared such grief.

No, not part of a church like that. Did start out thinking that way when my son was little but changed my perspective. I agree about what you say about TKD, but the cub class is really "lite". I am listening indeed :)

Not sure about this. How many kids cry on their first day of preschool or kindergarten and then learn to love it? Does that mean it's not good for them?

Some good points.

Yes, I get it. But habits start early, and much of the personality is ALREADY formed at five. I don't believe in waiting to address these issues, as long as they are addressed gently and carefully.

Thanks for the heads up!

The kids in the cub class we observed did beautifully, some more awkward that others, but all seemed to be having a great time! But of course, that doesn't show how many tried and quit or came to watch and said they didn't want to do it:) Regarding the T-ball, he was literally the ONLY kid acting like he was acting. It was beyond typical 3 year old behavior. It was not just ignoring the coach, but a variety of other behaviors. In retrospect, we should have waited on the T-ball. The rudeness we saw yesterday is also beyond typical 5 year old behavior. You would have to hear the tone, the volume and see the body language to grasp the gravity of it. But then again, perhaps if you had been there, it would not have shocked you.

Right, I see what you mean. I was really referring to "baby steps" in terms of dying to self. I dont' believe in waiting to start to use this kind of language with kids or hold them accountable when they aren't taking those baby steps. When I say hold them accountable, I mean verbally and gently reminding. I don't punish for such things.

Yes, I got that out of your post as well. The reason it made me think of choice, is b/c of what you said about the "soul." I agree that people of different faiths/beliefs can share the same value of selflessness and denying self for the group, and there are Christians who would not agree with me on that issue.. But that phrase "dying to self" is often used by Christians, along with Jesus' saying of "take up your cross." I was responding to the person who thought dying to self was denying one's personhood.

Thanks for the warm words. Perhaps you are right. It may be that the times I thought I was seeing him or his younger siblings "dying to self" was simply enlightened self-interest rather than true kindness from true empathy?

Thanks. The class is a "cubs" class. It is very fun and relaxed. They don't teach the full form, and it only lasts 45 minutes. All the kids in the class were smiling/laughing. I don't expect the class to teach him to die to self, and I don't expect him to master that at his age. In fact, I don't expect anyone to master it this side of heaven; I certainly haven't :) What I was trying to communicate is that I see a character trait developing in which he does not want to submit his will to anyone, much less a group of "anyones," and that that is not compatible with a Christian worldview. It's not so much about TaeKnowDo or not. It's about whether or not to insist on any group activity for him. He will object to any of them. What you said about the family class is interesting. If it truly is anxiety related, then perhaps his dad or I could do the all ages white belt class with him instead of the cub class?

While I can't say I agree with everything you said, I do think it is a good reminder for me to remember that it really is about a choice, and that I can't force him/make him choose to do unselfish things, at least not from the heart. But I don't think that means we should wait either. Otherwise, why would be teach a 2 year old to say "sorry" when you know they don't mean it. One thing that has been helping me lately is to slow down and ask myself, "Is this coming from love or a place of control or a controlling spirit/manner?"

Thanks. I have considered this as well. My play therapy training has helped me some with this. I try to pretend I am doing play therapy with him sometimes. I am also trying hard to give him as much freedom of choice as possible, giving up my will on things that aren't moral issues or don't really matter, ie. disciplining my own self will :)

Pricelessly what I am talking about! Even from a very young age, he would not let me join along. Some of that, though, I am convinced is sensory issues with his hearing. He covers his ears a lot. But there is no doubt he is very strong willed. His father and I are as well, so we must try so very hard not to be selfish or abuse our authority when guiding him. That is a fascinating piece of history about the lessons. I heed your concerns about the inexperienced instructors. This place is amazing, though. They are so positive and patient. We don't have a co-op right now, and I believe he really needs something out of our home this summer. He is with me 24/7, and I'm not sure that is a good idea right now.

Thank you everyone for your thoughtful replies. It has given me a lot to think about, such as my own issues of control and making sure I truly have his best interests at heart and not being overly concerned about my reputation. I think maybe some people misunderstood what I meant when I said it was a character issue. I don't consider his social anxiety to be a character issue. I am a licensed therapist, so I do know that there are some things that anxious kids can't help doing and I do understand development. I'm talking more about his obstinancy and unwillingness to share the limelight. You will just have to take my word for it that there is more to it that I could share in one post. I think I may also have a different philosophy about my child's activities and choices than many who replied. I wouldn't call myself a "tiger mom," but I do believe that there are times that I know what is best for my child to participate in more than he could possibly know at his age. Throughout his childhood I will be choosing some of his school work and activities for him; I don't strictly follow an unschooling philosphy in academics or extra-curriculars, though there are aspects of unschooling we practice, and I am a big fan of discovery learning. He leads his own learning much of the time. That being said, I don't disregard his interests and gifts either, and as he gets older and has tried more things, I will allow more freedom of choice. I chose TaeKwonDo because it's a good fit for him in many ways. It's not that he doesn't like it. It's that he can't do it on his own. He doesn't like to be "taught." How do I know this? He told me a couple of months ago. I gave him a list of things and asked what he would like to take lessons in. Long and short of the discussion is that he wanted to do most of it but didn't want anyone to teach him. He wanted to just do it his own way, the best he knows how. Perhaps this is going to be an unpopular thing to say, but I consider that to be character problem - being stubborn and unteachable that is, and it manifests in many ways in and out of our home. I don't think he will grow out of it b/c it seems to worsen with time. About the dying to self thing, that is part of our religious beliefs that I am sure many don't share. I do believe children are capable of doing it at a young age, and I have witnessed him do it before. I don't mean denying his feelings or lying to himself or being someone he is not. I mean choosing to lay down his interests/desire for the good of someone else or the group, often temporarily. I would not force him to do TaeKwonDo or any other activity other than church if he didn't like it, as long as he has shown some interest or given it a fair try. I just want him to try because I really think he will enjoy it if he does. I saw him laughing a bit as he was watching in fact. Before I took him, he had shown an interest in doing karate. Truly he would do this with any other activity of his choosing - even private lessons. With regard to the rudeness, I think everyone is right that he may not realize how rude he was acting. There were other rude things he said, though, like loudly saying "Bo-ring" over and over. And he absolutely glared at the teacher. I think he really is an angry child, frankly, and I am having to really examine myself to see what role I have played in that. I am reading a book about it at the moment. Thanks everyone for taking time out of your busy schedules for your thoughts!!!

I have considered that possibility. There are things about him that make me question any autism diagnosis, but I will keep that in mind. Sensory processing perhaps. I have thought about getting him evaluated but am concerned about labels.

When I say diligently, I am referring to consistency and perseverance. Yes, we disciple and model. Yes we also spank, but only for outright rebellion such as rude talk to us or digging his heels in and saying he absolutely won't obey. We give rewards and logical consequences for other things or just let natural consequences fall. Time out doesn't work for him, and going to his room makes him feel rejected. We attempt to praise more than correct. We try to catch him doing something good and build on it. We try to be patient and not raise our voice or get emotional - hard. We tell him over and over that our love for him is not dependent on his actions. My point is, we are not absent parents who let their kid just do whatever, which is how he acts a lot of the time.

Thanks - very helpful.

That's encouraging :)

Wow! That's eye-opening. I guess it's a good reminder that a peer group is only as good as the peers and the supervisors. I imagine it depends a lot on the group. Thanks.

Why do you hate it, Quill? I am thinking of starting it and would love feedback.

WIth the ipad and Android and other other tablets, do you have to pay a monthly subscription to a cell phone company?

Warning: novel Need some advice from seasoned moms/dads. My oldest has always had a fiercely independent spirit, always wanting to do his own thing. When we put him in T-ball at age 3, this became readily apparent. He did not want to do what the rest of the team was doing. Same problem in his church preschool 2 days per week, though he made improvements. He was not able to do the Christmas pageant with the preschool b/c he refused to participate in the rehearsals and sing with the others. It's not that he doesn't like singing. When he sings a song at home, he freaks out if anyone sings along. He is 5 now, and yesterday we took him to check out a TaeKwonDo class just for his age group. It looked so fun! He had absolutely NO INTEREST. When the teacher tried to talk to him and asked "What do you think of those kids' cool kicks?", he responded "Rotten!" I about DIED of embarrassment RIGHT THERE! If I saw a kid acting like that, I would think he was never disciplined but he really is disciplined diligently. When we got home, I saw him doing the kicks and punches he saw I know TaeKwonDo would be really good for him, and I think he would love it once he gives it a chance. Should we make him do it? The owner said not to force him but just keep bringing him until he gains interest, but he doesn't know my son. He will sit with me forever unless he gets a push. This is a character issue for me, because life involves group/team work and dying to self for the good of a larger group/cause. He has always had a high degree of awareness of his personal space/separateness, even as a baby. And a big concept of dignity. For example, he would dance in his room as a toddler, but stop immediately if he knew I was watching. He is not a shy kid, which is weird. But he does seem to have some social anxiety and I think that is one of the reasons he says rude things in those situations. Any advice welcome; I will try not to be defensive. This really is a sore spot.

Yes. Check out Rod Everson's article on this issue. He says SWR/Spalding has to have ey say "i" to be consistent. He recommends eliminating that sound if my memory serves me.