I agree with this as well, but what happens when the doctors are being strong armed to turn away patients whom they believe should not receive vaccines? I would be happy if we truly had informed consent regarding vaccines. For any other medical procedure or medication this is provided, but for vaccines we’re simply told don’t ask questions, comply or find another doctor. I know that some here on the boards have described respectful parent doctor relationships that consider the individual child and schedule vaccinations accordingly. National pressure on vaccine compliance has made finding that kind of respectful relationship impossible in some areas of the country. When I hear pro-vaccine people arguing about safety of vaccines they always talk about protecting those that can’t be vaccinated, but now pediatricians are turning away children who can’t receive vaccines because of medical exemptions to keep from affecting their compliance rate. Should the government have that kind of control or sway over doctor/patient relationships?

In my area, (NC) medical exemptions and religious exemptions are still allowed, however our pediatrician offices have a zero tolerance policy for not complying with the CDC schedule. My friend’s son went into a seizure after his MMR and received a medical exemption for further vaccinations, but this year our pediatrician was forced to turn him away from his practice, despite admitting that he does qualify for his medical exemption. It is rumored that pediatrician offices in our state are receiving financial incentives from the state for 100% vaccination rates across the practice, so people like my friend and her son are having a terrible time accessing quality medical care. It doesn’t matter if the law allows for exemptions when the medical practices are turning people away over this issue. My own son had an adverse reaction after his 3 month or 6 month shots, I actually can’t remember which ones. Within 15 minutes of receiving shots he was wheezing and our nurse sent us to the ER. Every doctor we saw in the ER immediately brushed off my concerns about the shots and said that it was unrelated to the vaccine. He’s never had another episode like that, so I find it unlikely that it wasn’t related to the shots in retrospect. I trustingly continued to vax but we’ve had a host of other issues and reactions and now I really wonder how they could dismiss his reaction so quickly out of hand. It’s these kind of condescending, brush off responses that are breeding tremendous mistrust and making me take a step back and think. I agree with DesertBlossom, we have to listen to the mothers.

Thank you!

I’m looking at Kelly Mahler’s site and I’m ready to start working on interoception with both of my kids. Do I want the curriculum or the video course? What’s the difference between the two? I can only afford to invest in one or the other at this point. Thanks!

We don’t have outside therapies either (for our own complicated reasons). I totally get how overwhelming it all is. You’re getting a good head start on this at age 7. I’ve been floundering and hitting my head against a wall since my ds was 6 on narration (he’s now 10). I so wish we had these tools then. Pick one thing, one tool, and wrap your head around it, incorporate it, and go from there. You don’t have to solve it all today. Just tackle what you can, when you can. Prioritize and don’t worry about the rest for now! You’ve totally got this!

Ok, I pulled out Book 2 of the Autism collection. In the back of the book it has pictures of the different products grouped by age and it has ThemeMaker listed as middle school & high school. Chapter 13 (carrying over from the first 12 chapters in book 1) Critical Thinking Triangle This section walks you through introducing the CTT in depth, flip book graphics, scripted lessons, activities with the printable graphic organizers. Lots of depth here on feelings, connecting the kick-off, extended practice activities, narrative text cubes, complete episode maps. Lots of good stuff for the CTT appropriate to the age level. Chapter 14 Perspective Taking Good background info/research on why perspective taking is so important, what our students need to know that they might not be getting naturally, and how to use the SGM to address this. Missing links in the perspective taking chain include feelings, thinking verbs, and plans (all represented visually in the CTT). Discusses Theory of Mind and Sentence Complementation, an activity for perspective taking, graphic organizers, flip charts with scripted lesson on Thinking & Saying. Example lessons, suggested children’s books for building the CTT with kids with brief outlines of each book. Children’s books to work specifically on feelings, thinking verbs, and the plan. Looking at specific life experience using the CTT and problem solving different perspectives. Chapter 15 Pragmatics The Social Use of Language General info on pragmatics, using the CTT structure to talk about body language, activity: Do an observation of a situation with graphic organizers, lesson samples, Activity: connecting pragmatics and story grammar including probe cards, flip chart graphic and scripted lesson on body language Appendix A Maps for complex sentence development, graphic organizers that are also included as downloads Appendix B Annotations on Selected Books focusing on feelings That’s it for book 2. No expository, but it’s going really in depth on the CTT which if you have that piece, I think you could transfer to expository using the Core of the Core printable that PeterPan linked. I’m using my iPad to type this up, so I apologize for my lack of formatting. Hope that helps and I’m happy to answer any other questions about the books if you have them!

Not yet; I want to make sure he’s really got the descriptive narrative down cold. He will still revert to say, pointing to a picture of the character rather than verbalizing occasionally. I’m working around anxiety/mutism so just getting verbal responses is huge for us. Expository has actually been easier for him in the past, so I think it will transfer well when we get there. I wanted to add, concerning the autism books, they step by step introduce each component. I rushed through the setting with my son, thinking this was a pretty straightforward component, only to be frustrated that he couldn’t tell me typical things that happen at the beach (somewhere we go often). I went back and read all of the background info on setting in the book 1 manual to find that, yes, setting is particularly difficult for autism kids, especially knowing what’s expected in particular settings, which makes perfect sense after thinking about it. That’s where context blindness and unexpected behaviors in various settings comes in. I say that to say, the books have been helpful for me, in identifying things that are difficult for him, and they’ve given exercises to help strengthen those skills.

This has been a really interesting and helpful discussion. I thought I would chime in with my experience as well. A month or so ago I posted on the main boards that narration wasn’t working for my son who has an ASD2 diagnosis. He has great vocabulary, but can’t do the back and forth dialogue or tell back a story like you’re describing above with your son. PeterPan and Kbutton recommended the Autism kit from MindWing and I went ahead and purchased, though I admit I was skeptical of trying something else because everything I had tried before got us nowhere. I’ve been working through the first of the three volumes with my son. It’s introducing each part of the SGM with scripted activities, visual charts, etc. My son loves the SGM manipulative and he has actually been able to give me descriptive narratives using the SGM tools. I’ve been using it with picture books like PeterPan described. Today, I was aiming for just the character, setting, and kick off of the three billy goats gruff, but he surprised me and gave me the goat’s feelings, plan, action sequence and resolution. He loves the stamp set for working through narratives as well. We’ll start with book 2 soon and I’m really excited that this is tackling the narrative/academic component while also addressing the theory of mind, social, autism stuff. The first time I introduced the SGM tool to my son and was explaining the icons, when I got to the kick-off he said, “Oh, like yesterday.” He had had a meltdown the day before because of a change of plans and we were able to use the SGM to walk through the whole episode and he reflected on it! I’m starting to incorporate, “Stop, think, make a plan,” when unexpected events happen in our day and it’s clicking. This tool is powerful for addressing so much that I never expected.

I’m planning to alternate days with Dictation Day by Day and W&R Fable beginning next term with my son. Fable is only 14 weeks of lessons done 3 to 4 days a week. Day one is reading the fable, narration and discussion without writing, so I don’t think it would be too much to do Dictation Day by Day on those days. The teacher guide of W&R also says you can adapt the dictation portion if it’s too difficult; since you have that skill covered with the Day by Day, I wouldn’t worry about dropping that portion from W&R and focus on the writing portions of the curriculum.

Thank you!

Is the Pyramids of Potential DVD you are referring to the $200 Foundations course on the POP website or something else? Finding a knowledgeable OT in my area is unlikely so if I can tackle it at home I’d rather.

Thank you! I think I will end up taking a varied approach like this as well. I’m already throwing together like ten different things to tackle math with him, makes sense to do the same for writing.

This sounds a lot like my ds. I think a more structured approach and some of these resources you’ve mentioned sound like a good fit for him. Thanks!

What approach did you end up taking that worked for your kids?

That video was really interesting. My son does use some phrases or scripts throughout the day that he doesn’t vary at all. I almost thought of it as an OCD type ritual but it could be more of an echolalia thing. What you’re saying about spelling and transcribing being like jibberish has been very true for my son as well. Typical Copywork does nothing for him as he transcribes one letter at a time, never connecting it to the word he’s writing. Apples and Pears spelling really teaches the chunks and patterns of words and he’s making slow and steady progress with that. For now, I only have him doing typing.org, he’s still at the level of learning home row keys and space bar, so no spelling required right now. He just really dislikes learning new skills, he wants to know how to do everything perfectly on the first try...it makes math really fun too, lol. I purchased the autism kit last night so we’ll get started as soon as I wrap my head around it and see how it goes. Thanks!

Thanks for taking the time to help me sort all of this out. He doesn’t really use tech yet to help with speech. I tried giving him a picture system a few years ago to use when he doesn’t have speech but he was resistant to using them. I have him learning typing now, which he hates so far, sigh. It really is complex, but yes more explicit instruction is a step in the right direction, so I will get started with the MindWing materials. The animated stories look like something he would be into so I’ll give that a try too. We’re heading out to church now, so I’m responding in a bit of a rush. I’ll check back in this afternoon!

Right, this is exactly what I’ve been wrestling with. WTM style narrations were a total flop with him when we tried them when he was 6 or so, and CM style is the same problem. There is no explicit teaching in how to narrate. However, as the years have gone on I’ve noticed him giving good narrations of various books, shows, etc but always outside of school time, unprompted by me. It has to be his idea to convey information to someone else. So maybe at the dinner table he tells his dad about a funny story we’re reading, or he tells his grandma about the latest chapter in our bedtime read aloud. So he does have the narrative ability, and it’s generalized into everyday life. Now, in school time I can do a reading and he will outright refuse to tell anything from the reading. He enjoys the readings, asks for more chapters, etc. I don’t think this is an attention issue. His latest standardized test placed him in the 90th percentile for reading comprehension. I think the breakdown might not be a narrative deficit but instead stemming from anxiety/pathological demand avoidance type shutdowns. Another example of refusal for him, he will not repeat the Pledge of Allegiance, a Bible verse, a song, basically any prompted words for the purpose of recitation. The only thing that leads me to believe that more scaffolding may be needed is that we’ve had limited success with IEW type structure. I really can’t break down what is lagging skills vs anxiety refusal. Of all of the challenges we’ve faced with his autism, selective mutism is by far the most challenging to work around. I was thinking if the issue is anxiety refusal, then my best bet might be dropping narration altogether for some other kind of output, at least for now. I just don’t know what that would even look like because I’ve invested in narration for so long. I would assume if the issue was a language glitch then he would have that glitch across settings and not only in settings where I’m prompting him to speak?

He’s able to do description, list, sequence and compare/contrast. I do think I’ve heard him tell cause and effect as well. What I get from him on a given day in a school setting is very inconsistent since we’ve been attempting to use narration, without my guiding him through specific prompts or story mapping of any kind. Outside of school time, I have heard him narrate events, tv shows, movies and free read books such as Chronicles of Narnia, The Wilderking Trilogy, and The Summer of the Monkeys totally unprompted. In these cases he is describing characters, setting, action, sequencing and resolution, not necessarily all of these components every time, but he has used them in his descriptions of things. If this is the case, does it still suggest a narrative deficit, or simply an issue with me prompting him to narrate? This is where I struggle to figure him out. I’ll continue to look around the site and watch the YouTube videos and see what I can incorporate to move him along, so thank you for that!

I wasn’t able to quote everyone who questioned this on my iPad, I’ll try to clarify what I can. Again, correct me if I’m wrong any Orthodox readers, but I don’t think that the Orthodox understanding is that atheists are assumed to hate God. There are some within Orthodoxy that believe that how your heart responds when you do encounter God is what matters. There is a belief that in this life, the Church prepares the heart to receive God as light and not fire. Hate might not be the best word choice on my part here either. There is an idea that we are either responsive to God’s grace and His purifying of our hearts or we are hardening our hearts against Him and demanding heaven on our own terms apart from Him. If the atheist experience is simply unbelief that doesn’t imply an intentional hardening and it doesn’t imply that an atheist in this life would necessarily refuse God’s love in the resurrection. At the end of The Last Battle in the Chronicles of Narnia, dwarves that are impure in heart are sitting in Paradise, but they think they’re in the dark, eating rotten food and the flowers surrounding them smell like dung. They are blind to the beauty around them and they’re in misery. There were others that upon entering Paradise, recognized Aslan and the beauty around them, even though they had not known Aslan previously and had rendered service to the pagan god Tash in their lives. I think this serves as a pretty good illustration of what I was trying to communicate before.

Please know that I’m not trying to debate or change anyone’s belief about this, I respect what you have concluded on these issues and I know it has been a long journey for you. I do think it would be helpful to respond with some ways of thinking about this that aren’t as well know in Western Christianity, just because I have really enjoyed hearing the perspective of others on these issues. The following is a quote (rather long, I’m sorry!) from Fr Thomas Hopko that clearly states that Christians can not get off the hook for God creating everything, knowing that angels and men would choose evil. I readily concede that point. “Which leads us then to another very, very, central dogma, this is a dogma of the Orthodox Christian Church. And that is, that God created heaven and earth and all things visible and invisible knowing that all these things would be this way. That there would be hurricanes and tsunamis, and earthquakes and tragedies and injustices and persecutions and prison camps. God did all that! Yeah, God did it! If you are a Christian you can’t get off the hook. You believe in God— God did it. He did it. But you could even go to the next step and you could maybe even speculate, on the basis of scripture and the divine revelation that is ultimately fulfilled in Jesus hanging on the cross, is that God creates everything that can possibly be created. I think that that, in my opinion, could even be a Christian doctrine. If anything could possibly exist, God creates it. Everything he creates is good, he doesn’t create evil. But he certainly creates creatures that he knew would be evil. Take for example, the Christian teaching about the noetic realm, the angels. It is certainly the Christian teaching that God created the “cosmos noetos” (Gr. “Κόσμος Νοητός”)—the bodiless powers, billions and billions of spiritual beings without bodies, pure intellects, that he knew would rebel. That some of those angels, the symbolic number is a third of them, they plunge and become demons. They become devils. They pollute the universe. They are infecting everything, they are trying to destroy everything. Why did God do that? Well he did it because he creates everything that can exist, even those that would be evil. You can almost say, according to the Sermon on the Mountain, God doesn’t just love those who love him. He loves everybody. He loves the unjust as well as the just. He creates people that he knows will be unjust and maybe burn forever in hell. He creates them anyway and gives them that choice, that freedom, how to act and interact with him. And if he did not do that he would not be just. God does not say, if you are good I’ll like you and I’ll take care of you and I’ll keep from earthquakes. That’s just ridiculous. There aren’t any such persons. We are all sinners, we are all in need of salvation.” An important thing to realize about this point of the unjust perhaps burning forever is the Orthodox view of heaven and hell. The idea there is that at the final judgement we will all behold the consuming fire that is God. For those that love God this will be the fulfillment of our longings, union with God. For those that hate God, this will be a tortuous burning, because of the spurning of God’s love. So it is in our perception, not God’s action toward the individual that we will experience heaven or hell. Obviously, this framework will not hold together for everyone and it does eventually come down to belief. I just haven’t seen this view articulated throughout the thread so I wanted to chime in. Also, a caveat, while I love Orthodox theology and have learned so much from it, I am not in fact Orthodox. If any Orthodox reading see anything inaccurate in my post, please do correct me. I try to use quotes when I can to avoid any misunderstanding. Regarding Psalm 82 and “Elohim” this is the teaching of the intratestament Jews and the early church. Though it is not believed that these spiritual beings have the power to create ex nihilo, they do have dominion. It is still believed in Orthodoxy and some Protestant scholars are writing about this and recovering this view. Dr. Michael Heiser’s book The Unseen Realm covers the divine council, the fall and the dominion of the Elohim and there is a fascinating podcast here if anyone is interested in learning more. https://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/areopagus/the_gods_of_the_nations#40548

Thank you for the links. The story grammar program looks promising. He actually does better with expository. He is more likely to tell me something from a book about animals than anything else.

I’ve been looking around the Story Grammar site trying to get a feel for everything. Would this work to use on our own or are the tests and tutoring necessary for this program? We’re also dealing with selective mutism (I’ve posted about this over on the special needs board in the past) so tutoring and testing really aren’t good options for us. I’d love to have more info on what my son is struggling with specifically, but I’m pretty much going off of my own observations with him. Thank you for the suggestions!

I found the quote I was thinking of above, this is from The Orthodox Way by Bishop Kallistos Ware, “What then, are we to say about evil? Since all created things are intrinsically good, sin or evil as such is not a ‘thing,’ not an existent being or substance...’That which is evil in the strict sense,’ observes Evagrius, ‘is not a substance but the absence of good, just as darkness is nothing else than absence of light.’ And St Gregory of Nyssa states, ‘Sin does not exist in nature apart from free will; it is not a substance in its own right.’ ‘Not even the demons are evil by nature,’ says St Maximus the Confessor, ‘but they become such through the misuse of their natural powers.’ Evil is always parasitic. It is the twisting and misappropriation of what is in itself good. Evil resides not in the thing itself but in our attitudes towards the thing- that is to say, in our will.” I don’t know that all Christian traditions would articulate their view of evil in this way, but I have always found it a very helpful way to approach the problem of evil.

If evil is the absence of good then it’s not created. I’ve heard it described as “evil is the corruption of the good.” Corruption isn’t created. When fruit decays, the decay isn’t a new creation unto itself, it only exists through the breaking down of the created (the apple).

I’ve homeschooled ds 10 since kindergarten. I’ve always been drawn to CM and have attempted to follow her methods more or less but my son is on the autism spectrum ( the PDA profile describes him well, if you’re familiar with it) and he just won’t/can’t narrate. I’ve read CM’s volumes and Know and Tell by Karen Glass. I’ve offered LEGO minifigures for acting out the story, drawing pictures of stories, the bookmarks with narration prompts, etc, etc, but haven’t been successful. I’ve backed off for long stretches of time and tried again with short, easy stories, all to no avail. He can answer Memoria Press style comprehension questions and he can tell back a story that he’s really interested in to his grandma or a friend, just not when prompted in school hours. I think the open ended nature of narration produces anxiety and inability to perform. This fits with the anxiety/PDA model pretty well. I would like to drop narration and find something that works for my son but I’m not sure what that would look like. I would like to avoid dry workbook type comprehension questions and busy work while still guiding him in producing some form of output for our history, literature and science readings. He does map work for our geography readings. I’d love something that is more discussion based, but with some scaffolding for his thoughts. For those that don’t primarily use narration, what kind of resources and assignments do you use? I’d like to get him comfortable with some form of consistent output this year before beginning a formal writing curriculum with him in the 5th grade.