Susan, I hope not to ignite a Saxon editions war, but I believe that 3rd editions of most of the books were published way before common core. I understand that book publishers label their books "aligned to common core" so that they are accepted by schools. I may be incorrect but from what I read from Art Reed and spoke about with Stephen Hake, the 3rd editions of most of the books and 4th edition of 7/6 are still excellent books. Mr. Reed in his book, "Using John Saxon's Math Books" and on his website even said the 3rd editions are almost identical to the 2nd editions, and that they were created primarily to be soft covers for homeschoolers. Is that incorrect? Actually Mr. Reed addresses Saxon Math and Common Core in his newsletter just this very month. He also puts the editions that he recommends. http://www.homeschoolwithsaxon.com/newsletterpage-2014.php#0514 I do understand that some people prefer the earlier editions because they were the simplest books and that subsequent editions may have become broader because of state standards. Stephen Hake even acknowledges this in the post I entered above. However John Saxon and he were careful to "strengthen" the books with each new edition. So from my information as I understand it, the 2nd editions and 3rd editions are almost identical. So the latest 5/4, 6/5, 7/6 (4th), 8/7, Alg 1(3rd), Alg 2(3rd), Advanced math, and Calculus should be just fine.

joys world, my 4th grader did very well with Hake Grammar and Writing 4. It is completely independent except for a dictation quiz that the parent does every Friday. It takes about 5-10 minutes.

reef gazer, yeah, I think you are right on schedule. I think you should follow Reed's advice and see how she makes out with 8/7. It is a very good pre-alg book and she should do fine in Alg1. If she is getting good test scores then go right to Algebra 1. In Alg 1 it looks like John Saxon did a lot of good review of the pre-algebra concepts anyway. Yes, the Course 3 is much of the same as 8/7 but deeper and with a broader scope. It has more statistics, probability, and word problems than 8/7. I would not do Course 3 if my son was doing 8/7 in 7th like your daughter. I would have put him right through to Alg 1 like Mr. Reed advises.

yeah stupidusername. That was my feeling. I though my son would be SO bored doing 1/2 after doing well in 8/7 but I still didn't want him to hit Algebra 1 yet at 12. I know other kids do it that age and younger but I just didn't feel that way for some reason. When I saw the Course 3 book, i thought, "Perfect!". It definitely seems like a better bridge as you say. I also trust S.H. very much.

Hi reefgazer, Art Reed suggest after 8/7, if your daughter does well on the last 5 tests ( I believe), that she go right into Algebra 1. I think that is the normal progression. Only if she struggled does he suggest 1/2. How old is your daughter? My son is finishing up 8/7 and we are doing Course 3 because I don't want to rush him into Algebra in the 7th grade. See my post above yours about what the Saxon author Stephen Hake suggests. He sort of believes in Course 3 between 8/7 and Alg1. - Scott

Love the Saxon series and method. It has really filled the holes that developed in my two sons during their public schooling from grades 1-5. John Saxon and Stephen Hake brilliantly applied common sense learning modalities (Incremental, constant review) to math education (and even grammar). I view math as a foreign language. Do you want your student fluent in the language, or for them to have a superficial to moderate ability? Sure a student can receive "A" grades in French class from 7-12 grades, but can they use it for real? i couldn't. I think math education is treated the same way now, unfortunately. As far as Stephen Hake steering the middle grade books (5/4 - 8/7, and even Course 3) too far from what John Saxon would have advised is an interesting question. I have posted a link to my email interview with him before. From that exchange, it appears that Stephen Hake was the lead author of that series with John as his co-author. All major decisions, John deferred to Hake. Another fact to take into consideration, is that his grandchildren homeschool and have used the newer Course 3. http://homeschoolingodyssey.wordpress.com/2014/02/27/saxon-math-author-stephen-hake-part-1/ I am planning on having my child finish 8/7 then go into Course 3, Algebra 1 (Old 3rd edition), Alg 2 (Old 3rd), Advanced Math, Calculus. However, I think Hunter does have valid points about the books changing to keep up with ever widening standards. So Hunter's advice about Alg 1/2 instead of Course 3 does have merit. Mr. Hake addressed this issue of the focus of the books in a recent email with me and and I paste that reply here: "What is important for kids to know? Somebody needs to make that decision. John had his opinions based on what he taught at the community college level and what he knew about the requirements to be successful in an engineering program. I had my opinions based on what skills and concepts were needed by students to be prepared to succeed in secondary math. However the math content expected to be covered in grade school has significantly expanded in the last 30 years. Whole topics like probability and statistics have been added that were rarely a component of math books 30 years ago, and these topics are now expected in all states. The trick now is how to cover all the required content while focusing on the critical content. I often use the analogy of a building to represent mathematical learning. In the preface to early editions I would write something like, Learning mathematics is like building a tall building, the ultimate height and stability of the structure depends on the size and strength of the foundation. That's one reason I like Course 3 before algebra. It provides another opportunity to increase the depth and strength of the foundation. But the building analogy is also applicable to the range of content. Each floor of a building has structural elements like framing members, functional elements like windows and doors, and decorative elements like wall and floor finishes. Grade-school mathematics has a similar range of elements. I feel like its my responsibility to give proper weight to the various elements and not to shortchange structural elements for the sake of decorative elements. John and I were both mindful of maintaining a strong structure when working on revisions. This is an example of what I mean about the refinements and subtleties of the program that are not evident when simply looking through the books."

Here is Mr. Travers' European History book list for his Literature class below. Check out this link to his open hours where he covers the American History books he will use next year. My 5th and 7th grade kids love studying Literature, Art, and Poetry with this guy. He really bring the Literature and the Art to life. Junior High Literature, Book List European-History Related King Arthur and His Knights of the Round Table, by Roger Lancelyn Green Beowulf: A New Telling, by Robert Nye Anna of Byzantium, by Tracy Barrett The Hunchback of Notre Dame, by Victor Hugo Cyrano de Bergerac, by Edmond Rostand The Cid, by Pierre Corneille A Doll’s House, by Henrik Ibsen The Scarlet Pimpernel, by Baroness Orczy Ninety-Three, by Victor Hugo Othello, by William Shakespeare Romeo and Juliet, by William Shakespeare Les Misérables, by Victor Hugo Examples of Poetry “The Lady of Shalottâ€, by Alfred Tennyson “The Highwaymanâ€, by Alfred Noyes “To Lucastaâ€, by Richard Lovelace “Sonnet 116â€, by William Shakespeare

Suzanne, if you decide to stick with Saxon there is another option. I have spoken with the author Stephen Hake and his preference for homeschoolers is to try to do the Course 3 book between 8/7 and Algebra 1. My son is in the middle of 8/7 and is doing fine but I will require him to do the Course 3 book as per Mr. Hake's suggestion before hitting Algebra 1. He is just turned 12 and I agree with Mr. Hake that it is important to build that foundation strong and deep before going to Algebra and beyond. Here is an email interview I did with him where he mentions Course 3. http://homeschoolingodyssey.wordpress.com/2014/02/27/saxon-math-author-stephen-hake-part-2/ You can do the 8/7 again, or even the Alg 1/2. but I think Course 3 is better than those options if you can find it. It is not sold as an official homeschool product but only to schools as an 8th grade book. I was able to purchase the student book, and solutions manual through an Amazon.com reseller. It is definitely a great bridge between 8/7 and Algebra 1. Good luck with whatever you choose! Scott

stm4him/Hunter What are your thoughts on Mrs. Leclerc's TOTIL Reading segment? We are kind of doing half TOTIL as I see it. The boys do complete Independent Saxon Math and the Hake Grammar (except dictations). We expand the Hake Grammar to include 15 minutes of Quizlet.com for the Hake Vocabulary words. Quizlet tests them on the meaning and the spelling of these words. The power and effectiveness that I have seen from this method for Math and Grammar has made me curious about the Reading aspect that she talks about. Do you think it would be as valuable in history, science, and social studies as it is for math and grammar? I know that would be very similar to the Robinson Curriculum. She states in her book: "Care needs to be taken when considering the learning of social studies. When the ideas of various economic and political systems of government and secular and religious philosophies are introduced, children should read original source materials first. Then, they should read non-original source materials that are in favor of, not opposed to, the concept they are studying. Finally, students should study the writings of authors who disagree with the particular concept or philosophy. By this time, students should be well able to assess for themselves the validity of the newly introduced concept. It should be clear what philosophy is being promoted, unlike most school texts that promote particular philosophies in a surreptitious manner to indoctrinate children. It is best to include all forms of each discipline, such as the following for political systems: constitutional republics, socialist/progressive systems, dictatorships, monarchies, theocracies and oligarchies. For economic systems, both Keynesian economics and Austrian economics should be included. -Doris Leclerc Ball PhD (2011-08-23). Revolutionizing Education in America:The TOTIL Method (Kindle Locations 1042-1049). iUniverse. Kindle Edition. Currently in the afternoon, we do a normal history, science, and literature class online over video. They are good and the kids like them but I sometimes wonder if it is less efficient and impactful vs something like Mrs. Leclerc describes. She seems to be going a bit deeper than the Robinson reading list? - Scott

In the 4th Grade book the spelling is handled indirectly in the weekly dictations. There are about 4 or 5 grammar lessons that are devoted to Spelling rules type things such as "ie vs ei". Each dictation has words that would challenge a 4th grader. If our sons spell the words incorrectly in the dictation we put them into little spelling lists for them. So there are no formal spelling lists if that is what you are asking. Just the vocabulary works that we put into Quizlet so they master that spelling and the dictations.

STM4HIM, Wow the whole book!? Nice power reading! Yeah that book really resonated with my thoughts also. It's sad how the high achieving students need to spend so much time after schooling, when it could all be so much more efficient and less grueling. Perhaps even pleasurable. Yeah, I had some questions I wanted to ask her, but also sadly discovered she had passed away in 2011. I would loved to have asked her about her reading suggestions. I think I was searching something up on Amazon regarding Saxon Math, and her book popped up on the right somewhere. I decided to click it and read the preview and it hooked me in, so I purchased it. There is absolutely nothing on the web about her book. It is very weird. I guess she passed away right after it's publication so wasn't marketed?

SweetandSimple, We only use the Hake writing portion. Your question is very difficult for me because writing is my weakness, and I attribute that to being a victim of the watered down grammar curriculum from the 1980's. This author highlights the issues well in my opinion: http://www.nas.org/articles/teaching_writing_teaching_grammar My wife, however, was a 5th and 6th grade teacher for 6 years and was an English/Journalism major. She likes the Hake writing portion, and she believes the boys made good writing progress this year. We aren't too familiar with other homeschool writing curriculums, so maybe other people know of better one's, so they use that instead? There are so many different philosophies of what makes a good writing curriculum for students that it all becomes so subjective. With Hake, the student does 3 days of 5-10 minute journal entries. The authors suggest that the parent/teacher NOT grade these journal entries. They are meant to be a safe, fun place for the child to practice. At first, my wife wanted to check and mark these journals, but over time she now agrees with the Hake philosophy because both boys love writing and find it FUN. The formal writing lessons in the student work book are well done in my estimation. They take the student through the structure of an essay and the writing process, step by step. It does this for many different essay types. It also has some nice lessons on transitions, improving topic sentences, strengthening the thesis statement etc. So I don't think the writing instruction is weak at all. Maybe some people think it isn't enough essay writing? In that case, I would just require more essays. For instance, once my kids finish their grammar books in early May, we will go through writing an essay once a week out of the workbook through June. If you wanted you could assign essay's, poems, chapter summaries, or whatever writing you want during your school year. They can follow the process in the workbook for any topic of your choice. I can't imagine a student who goes through this curriculum from the 4th - 8th book would not be a strong writer. I expect the same result going only through 6th - 8th like my oldest son. Hope this helps.

Hunter, it will be very interesting to see the 7th grade book when my son uses it next year. Unlike, Saxon Math, for some reason, I am not in any rush for them to progress though the Grammar books. So once, they finish 4 and 6 by early May, we will stop grammar study until September. Math they will definitely do through the summer. Yeah, I really can't compare the Grammar to much else except their non-exist public school grammar. The other homeschool alternatives I merely researched with my wife. She is an English/Journalism major and she is extremely satisfied with the Hake books. I am sure there are other excellent and effective English homeschool products out there but for us, it was really the Incremental continual review that made the difference. Another observation that I can make is that I really love how vocabulary falls into that pattern. It is a nice gradual way of memorizing important vocabulary. Does that lead to mastery of the words? I'm not so sure, but it's definitely provides a good recognition of the words and prefixes. So we require the words go into Quizlet and be studied for mastery - it takes only 2 or 3 15 minute Quizlet sessions for a list of 20 to be mastered because they have been seen so many times in the practice sets.. Also, originally I didn't see the value in dictation but over the year it has become my favorite aspect of the program. I was very surprised to see how beneficial the dictation exercises are with regard to spelling and punctuation. In the beginning, my wife and I dabbled with skipping it. I am so relieved we didn't. In addition the content of those passages are excellent. It taught my 6th grader the Gettysburg Address. f Another temptation was to intervene too heavily in the writing student workbook. Turns out it was best for us to let the kids proceed through the writing exercises on their own, and to let them do the self analysis exercise by themselves. My wife does intervene after the entire writing assignment with suggestions and edits. Both kids love the diagramming of sentences. They both said it really helps them understand. I hope this all leads to an easier time learning a foreign language. We shall see. Finally it only takes them about 1 hour to do the entire hake grammar exercises for the day. Many times less. … Scott

Gosh stm4him, that was very well said and mirrors so much how I think about curriculum at this point. Just balancing out simplicity, common sense, with efficiency. When my oldest son was beginning to deteriorate in mathematics in the 5th grade, I knew I needed to intervene. So being strong mathematically, I did intervene by what I now in retrospect understand was studying for the test. In school they would study fractions in a chapter fashion for 4-5 weeks or so and then the review packet would come home showing that he knew 75-80% of the material. He definitely is a smart kid too but this wasn't cutting it. So Dad would intervene for a couple hours at night and hand hold him through the problems and bam, a 98% A on the test. Sadly, the intervention was only for a total of 2 hours; so God knows what was going wrong in school for 4 weeks. However, when the review packets for the state standard test starting coming home 3 months later, the fraction mastery was non-existent. We had studied for the test. Not good, not good at all. This applied to most topics not just fractions. So reflecting back on my own mathematics education, I realized that as a child I had a computer program for my TI-99/4A home computer called PLATO that I used to review math problems all year for the "fun" of it and because I NEVER understood them from the initial teacher lecture or practice problems. I was reviewing over time. How else can we retain? Didn't I practice sports and music like that? Surely there had to be a better and more efficient way of including review over time in my children's education. After some research, I found that John Saxon and Stephen Hake had actually created a math program that did just that. I read and researched incremental learning with review over time, and the obvious benefits of independent learning; we easily decided that we needed to homeschool math in this fashion. We tried grammar with normal teaching and with outside help, but then discovered in September that Hake Grammar and Writing existed. What a stroke of good fortune! These two boys have never looked back. I think they would be offended if they needed to ask for help in either Math or Grammar at this point. The youngest would-be 4th grader has completed Math 6/5 and the other would-be 6th grader completed 7/6 by mid March. They have now jumped to the next books. Previously, these two boys were helpless, even weenies, before learning in this model. If the information couldn't get in there heads passively via a teacher or parent conduit, then it wouldn't get in there all. Now it is completely opposite, they are self sufficient. This has only been one year. I feel their behavior has improved because of this, but I can't prove it. You may be interested in a book by Doris Leclerc called "Revolutionizing Education in America: The TOTIL Method". She addresses the differences between the international scores of American public schools vs the other schools of the world that massively outscore the U.S. In a nutshell, her conclusions reflect your observations from your post above. http://amzn.com/B005X8MQII Well I like to always disclaim that this is just one family and for only one year so far. I hope the results continue to accelerate as they have been. I know there are other methods for education and I don't want to diminish them at all. This is just our test case. Is this the best method for literature analysis? good question. Can a child just be left to read great works of literature, source documents, biographies, and autobiographies for history without assistance from a guide? good questions. But for math, grammar, vocabulary, spelling, and perhaps writing, in my opinion, this method of learning is a slam dunk. Oh we are really hoping for the 3rd grade book next year also! We are bringing our daughter into homeschool next year for 3rd grade and would love to start with that book! I emailed SH regarding it's availability or if we can field test it. LOL Take Care, Scott

Hunter, Yeah, I am not sure if there is some placement test like Saxon math uses to evaluate where a child should be placed in the series. From looking at the 4th, 6th, and 8th grade books, they seem to cycle through the same topics but in a deeper fashion for each successive book. I can only give an opinion based on my two son's experience with the 4th grade and the 6th grade books this year. Both of them came out of a "normal" public school system this year into homeschool. The oldest would have been in 6th grade and the youngest would have been in 4th grade. I would rate the public school grammar, vocab, and writing education that they had up to that point as being a bit above average; nothing great. The public schools don't focus on grammar very much. We didn't see or experience any difficulty at all for the 4th grader to independently work through the 4th grade Hake book. As a matter of fact, from our experience, my wife and I are very surprised how much he is retaining and more importantly applying to his writing. We've seen tremendous improvement in his spelling as well. Also, that first writing lesson you referred to doesn't get used until after the first 10 grammar lessons and the first test. So technically it is around the 3rd week, that the student will see that lesson. Not trying to nitpick. Still, my son didn't have any problem with it. Similarly, the 6th grader has had no problem starting right off in the 6th grade Hake book directly out of public school. I believe they both are above 90% average on their cumulative test scores for the year as well. Again, what I am most impressed about is that they are adapting their writing to what they are learning in the grammar portion. It is really being understood enough to be utilized. I have seen a relatively small number of literary analysis vocabulary words in the books that they are using, so maybe that is a focus of the 7th grade book? Not sure. I do love the Core Knowledge content that they use in these books as explained by Mr. Hake in his email. The 8th great book is great with it's government content. I actually purchased the 8th grade book to go through myself because I am a victim of a 1980's watered down grammar education. I am on lesson 34 so far and find it very interesting to actually feel and experience the effects of incremental learning. I have always struggled understanding grammar, but the incremental approach with the constant review over time helps it to really sink in. Maybe I can be helped yet, after all these years! :) Anyway, that is just the experience of one family for one year. They are almost finished with these books and we will move on to Grammar 5 and Grammar 7 next year. Warm Wishes, Scott

you're welcome Hunter

Hi, In the past, I have posted my email exchange with Saxon Author Stephen Hake regarding his Saxon math series. I wanted to share with you his views on incremental learning and his Hake Grammar series of books. We use this series of books with our children and they are great in my opinion. My children love them, and are they are really retaining the concepts while applying them to their writing. I wish I learned from books like this. http://homeschoolingodyssey.wordpress.com I hope you find some value in this interview. - Scott

Hi Bailey, I am in the same situation as you with my 6th grade son. He breezed through 7/6 and finished the last 5 tests with over a 96% average. So Art Reed advises to jump right to Alg 1/2. However, after emailing with Stephen Hake the author of the middle school books, we decided to go into Math 8/7. I agree with Mr. Hake about middle school math and actually took him up on his suggestion of checking out the new Course 3 book, that he suggest using after Math 8/7 and before John Saxon's Algebra books. I looked over the Course 3 book and really like it very much. It is stronger than Alg 1/2 in my opinion and would really leave a strong middle school math foundation. Don't want to put another monkey wrench in you thinking and decisions; you would be fine without Course 3 but here is the interview where you can see Mr. Hakes thinking. http://homeschoolingodyssey.wordpress.com/2014/02/27/saxon-math-author-stephen-hake-part-2/

:laugh: I did the same thing with my son. He is 12 and I think it resonated

you're welcome sarahinwa! I love getting his viewpoint of this stuff also. Serenade, yeah it is good to be reminded why Saxon math produces such great results over time for most of us. I loved the lin to the cognitive science also.

Hi, bumping up with an update 4 of this Q&A with Stephen Hake. Part 4 is really interesting for Saxon history buffs. He goes into the "Math Wars". Hope you find it of interest. Thanks Scott

you are welcome mom2att. My son is finishing 7/6 this month so 8/7 is next. gulp!

I Just Posted Part 3.

wow Ellie, that is an amazing story! Handwritten pages!

Hi, I am a long time lurker here at the WTM but this is my first post. This post is primarily for Saxon Math users who may be interested in some clarity about editions from the opinion of the lead author himself. He also provides some interesting commentary on the history of Saxon. I know there are many on here who don't use Saxon or who don't like the Saxon approach so just ignore this post and reference. I emailed the author to ask for some clarity about some debates over book editions. He was very gracious to answer those questions and allowed me to share with the community. I hope some of you find some value reading his responses. http://homeschoolingodyssey.wordpress.com Thank You Scott