*Alyssa*
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Posts posted by *Alyssa*
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1.) I don't believe you know how a public defender's office works. In fact I am quite certain of it.
Regardless the claim was made that there is no representation available, which is false.
2.) Actually, an emergency removal by CPS is temporary. For it to be longer it must be approved by a court. In most states the hearing after an emergency removal must be within 24-48 hours.
1. You're certain, but...
2. I have been well aware of those facts for more years than I have fingers and toes. I did not read up on Google how CPS works. I lived it and it is quite fresh in my memory, considering that was my first experience in a courtroom. You don't forget something like that. You made it appear emergency always means temporary and it does not, but for you, that's justifiable.
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1.) Most states do appoint representation if a family cannot afford an attorney.
2.) CPS cannot remove a child other than under emergency situations and the removal in those cases is temporary. From that point the matter is in the hands of the court system.
1. An attorney whose paycheck comes from the state, correct? In another words, the attorney is working in favor of the state's interest, because that is their boss. You might as well dig your own grave, because you're on your own.
2. Emergency does not equal temporary, but in your mind, temporary justifies everything. I understand. That makes perfect sense.
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This. And I also think it is an injustice that civil and family courts are not appointed attorneys, they can have their lives ruined just as much or more than in a criminal trial, but there's no provision for a lawyer. That's nuts Imnsho. A family can find themselves in court, losing their kids and more, and not have even actually ever broken a single law. It's rather bizzare the amount of power CPS has in this country.
My parents did have our family attorney from over two decades, because we were not poor and were well within resources to afford whatever my parents needed. CPS was still bent on not admitting their wrong and ruining everyone's lives in the process.
You are right, however, because poorer families are usually the ones in the courtroom and are often times not aware of their rights.
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How do you handle the installation prequisitites for pygame?
We found that when someone develops a game they're proud of, they send their ".py" file to their friend who:
- doesn't have python installed, or
- has 2.7 instead of 3.whatever, and
- doesn't have pygame installed, then
- tries to install pygame and starts getting dependancy errors, and finally
- wants to run it on their iPhone
I'm really curious as to your approach
I'm getting your message this morning, but I'll have to answer you later when dh comes home. He's the one who does all that with our kids and would know how to respond with specifics. I didn't know people had a problem with this, so that's why I was confused. Dh makes it seem effortless and suggested Python as the next step after Scratch.
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I think I should walk away from this because I don't seem to be gaining any ground with you Alyssa and I don't want to give the impression I need the last word and I don't have time to spar with you endlessly. I can't address every post you make because you keep sidestepping questions I've asked of you and instead finding ways to make this all about me: I'm lying or my perceptions were off, I'm guilty of bad parenting moments too, I'm childish, I'm a snitch, etc. You talk of carrying one another's burdens but you seem to be piling them on me rather than really trying to help me find clarity. You say in general terms you can understand where someone is coming from without condoning their behavior, but you don't seem to see where I'm coming from despite my best efforts. And you still haven't given an opinion on whether smacking a kid in the face is justified in this case *as stated* or in any other. So I think I'll move on.
Yes, I did give an answer. You refuse to accept it. You want me to agree with you and until I do, you won't accept my answer. I can't help you find clarity when you read into what I've written only what you want to hear.
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I am not perfect. I have yelled at my son and even pinched him in frustration in a situation where he was supposed to be quiet/still and wasn't. I felt horribly about it and apologized to him immediately. I hope grandma does the same and it was just a one-off thing, not her typical pattern of dealing with him.
In my opinion, coming on here to solicit opinions (and open myself up to criticism from posters) is a step toward improving situations. I did not come here to vent about this rotten horrible grandma who we should all shun and mock; I asked for others' perspectives on this situation that bothered me. I wanted to know if there was anything i could have said or done to help the child or improve his situation. Having grown up without adults who behave this way I wanted to see what others from varied backgrounds thought. I felt my actions were inadequate and did not come here to gloat about my own perfection as a parent.
But I think it is worth stating that just because someone falls short of perfection herself, she is not disqualified from recognizing and responding to problems with others. If this were true, we'd have no judges or juries or message boards.
You condemned this woman, but you have done the same.
Good night.
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Thank you for apologizing. I am very much a take me at my word person. I try to say what I mean, not make backhanded insults. I had no idea you would take it that way. I once lost a friend because I told her I liked the dress she tried on but didn't react enthusiastically enough so I must be lying and hate it. I told her I mean what I say. I ended up crying in the mall over it because she wouldn't accept me at face value.
I, too, am an extremely justice oriented person. In fact, this is the main thing I was in trouble for as a child because I could not seem to let go when I saw injustice, even if it meant arguing with a teacher or angering peers. I physically defended 2 friends from bullies in elementary school. I hit another in self defense. There were countless verbal altercations where I defended others from verbal abuse. 4 of my 5 closest friends in 5th/6th were constant bully fodder and I championed their cause. This did not win me many friends or even make some teachers like me. I even stood up to bullying teachers. As I grew up, it became harder and harder to keep it up. After a particularly heated argument with an 8th grade teacher (over a minor thing to most kids, but unfair) that led to me being written up I worked harder at biting my tongue and trying to fight injustice differently. But as a student I was often powerless or felt I was.
As an adult I feel that powerlessness toward injustice even more deeply. I once was young and idealistic and thought is grow up and right the wrongs of the world. But here I am an adult, mother of two, eating at McDonalds, and I am frozen trying to determine how to address the injustice of a preschooler or kindergartener being mistreated.
I'm asking myself, is this abuse? In my opinion, yes it is, though obviously "minor" compared to what many kids suffer. But does the law agree? Is it worth causing a scene if the police won't even care? I looked up the statutes later and it appears it isn't legally abuse unless there are marks or there is measurable intellectual or psychological impact from being treated this way long term. Of course I don't know about that based on this interaction. It is entirely possible the later neck pinch left a bruise or nail marks. I also worry that if she's willing to do such things in public, they are getting worse at home. I mentioned she threatened him too. I didn't hear every word but it was said angrily and included the words, "I'm going to take you home and...unintelligible...tell the truth!"
You are substituting your judgement for mine in assuming that I definitely would have acted if it went down as I described. I'm telling you that is what happened and I hesitated and seemed to miss my opportunity. That's why I'm dissecting it now.
What I'm not clear on is if you think my description *as stated* rises to abuse and should have been reported or if I should have confronted grandma. You seem to be going between both sides, saying it could be culture and age and that's OK, but also saying if I'm telling the truth you can't believe I wouldn't report it. Those are conflicting positions.
:svengo:
I gave an example of where someone might be coming from. Having an understanding of where someone is coming from doesn't mean I condone their behavior. :glare: Therefore, nothing about what I said is conflicting.
Are you aware there are people who think taking your kids to fast food joints is child abuse?
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I'd love to do a study to see how many adults have a memory of being slapped in the face at least once, and how many of them grew up just fine anyway. I'm guessing that is the case for the majority of us.
I think it might be a good idea for some who are so appalled at the idea of corporal punishment to read and study the definition of criminal child abuse in their jurisdiction (with real-life examples).
The attitude "I don't care what else is going on, there is no excuse for such horrible behavior ever" is disturbing. Nobody's perfect. I would love to meet one single parent who has never done anything regrettable while caring for 3 young children in a stressful situation.
I agree with the bolded. No one is perfect. Instead of being fast to throw stones, why don't we try to help carry the load of our fellow man?
A person in that situation could have said, "It looks like you're having a hard day. Would you mind if I bought your meal, so you don't have to worry about that?" Maybe you would have rather written a note, but after you already paid for the meal. It is amazing what a kind act will do for someone.
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Hey, it was not a stab at you or your credentials in any way! I was speaking of myself since you seem intent on doubting me. I have never said a word of doubt about you!
Then I truly apologize for misunderstanding you.
AndyJoy, even a good detective would doubt your story, not because of a slight on your character, but to protect the innocent. You would want the same courtesy given to you if someone was accusing you of a crime, wouldn't you?
If I sound intent on doubting you, you're right. You accused grandma of abuse before an untold number of people on the internet without her ability to defend her side of the story. That doesn't go over well for someone like me who is very justice oriented. If grandma was wrong, then do something. You didn't do anything, which leads me to believe you either willfully allowed abuse to happen without standing up for the defenseless child, or the situation was not as bad as you say it was. I believed the latter before and that hasn't changed.
One only needs to go to YouTube to find videos where if you just listen to the situation, you would expect an entirely different situation happened, but if you get to see what actually happened, you change your mind. Video is powerful for that reason. Recalling an event with our own memory is faulty and every courtroom knows this. It would be interesting to see on camera what the grandma actually did.
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I said I'm sorry if; that's the main reason I can think of why someone would think it was OK to hit kids like that. You only hinted at your story, which made it sound like someone reported your caregivers for something that you see as similarly minor. I don't know your story. I fail to see how this makes me less trustworthy. And if you ask around I'm not some new poster who sets off the "too strange to be true" radar.
"New poster" with a "too strange to be true" radar? I see. That perfectly negates my story. CPS doesn't have any corruption and I lied about it all. You caught me.
AndyJoy, it has been nice speaking to you. Good night.
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Accidentally sent that post when I wasn't finished, but I'm too tired to write it all out again.
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1. Grandma was not Italian.
2. Italian grandmas don't get a pass in my book.
3. I fail to see how a 4 or 5-year-old verbally, truthfully, defending himself against accusations that he told a boy to expose himself is a lack of any kind of healthy "respect". Grandma ASKED if he did it, he (truthfully) denied it, and she accused him of lying and smacked him. He was not fighting her or hitting her or saying anything other than "I didn't tell him that!"
4. I am so thankful I did not grow up with that. The potential was there. My mom did grow up with that and resolved to NEVER smack us in the face. She kept that promise; we were spanked in a calm manner with a discussion, but never smacked in the face or in heat-of-the-moment anger or embarrassment.
I missed this post earlier.
I gave an example and you come back to say the grandma in your story is not Italian. :huh: Would you also propose I was also saying every Italian grandmother does this?
Your mother did not smack you in the face, but she spanked you in a "calm manner". With all due respect, there are people in this world who think your mother abused you and should be in prison, preferably hung without a trial by jury.
You are proving my point that you have to tread with caution with these things and be slow to say something is abuse when the situation is not black/white.
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I don't see anyone throwing grandma under the bus. No one has advocated calling the police based on what I witnessed. They do, however, all agree that smacking a child in the face is wrong. Even if I "made up" details and the kid did something horribly rotten I think they'd still agree. What if I posted that the mom of the 7-year-old instigator was the one who hit her kid? (she talked to him quietly in a corner then screamed and told him not to get up in her face disrespectfully). I think we'd still agree she shouldn't have hit him. What we're all saying is that whatever the back story or grandma's side (if you don't believe my account), it shouldn't have happened. I'm sorry if that was normal in your family; I think it sucks. But this is a separate issue from whether it warrants kids being taken away.
Where on earth did I ever say anything about that happening in my family? Do you see why I don't trust your testimony? You made up something about my family when I said absolutely nothing of the sort. You read something into my story that simply wasn't there! People reading that would have believed you if I didn't come to defend myself.
The more you talk, the less I believe your story to be accurate, because if you added that to my story, what have you done to grandma's story?
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I'm so sorry about your childhood and I know that must make this situation so much more personal for you. Your harshness obviously come from the horrible hurtfulness of your story. Im so sorry and wish i could give you a hug.
I thought I was making it clear that this is exactly why I posted here; I struggled with saying anything because I didn't want to make it harder on the kid or overreact, but ignoring what I believe is wrong can be bad too. I suspect it is impossible to know when you're talking about a stranger, but should one always err on the side of staying out of it? Not all adults who were raised this way agree. So here I am an outsider trying to hear ALL your stories and make sense of it.
Here's the deal. When family courts treat the accused the same way any other court does with a right to a trial by jury, then I will say to call police until your heart is content. Until then, I will never throw someone in that courtroom unless I truly believe they should be there. Every person should have the right to a trial by jury and this is the rare exception in family court. That is wrong.
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Is there a side of the story that excuses Grandma hitting her grandson in the face ?
Why doesn't it surprise me that on WTM, someone thinks there might be.
Neither am I surprised to find people on here who are more than willing to throw someone under the bus for something they didn't witness and only "heard" about from a random poster on the internet.
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There isn't an easy answer to any of this, because sometimes it's d*mned if you do and d*mned if you don't. Sometimes it is hard to know what to do. I will give you that, AndyJoy.
I'm sorry for being hard on you. I just don't want people to be thoughtless about helping children that they inadvertently hurt them instead. My life was truly ruined as a result and I cannot stress that enough what it did to me as a child. Does my story not matter?
I'm sorry for my tone.-
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So good (in a horribly sad way) to hear this. I'm glad the outcome was worth it to you and I will try to be that person who speaks up so the kid will know it's messed up from an outside observer.
What if you're that person who "speaks" up where you don't belong and ruins someone's life? I'm sorry, but my life was completely ruined as a child because of someone like you sticking their nose where it doesn't belong and fabricating the story into something it wasn't. Let me rest assure you, my time in foster jail was a million times worse than anything that could have ever happened to me at home. :mad:
No one likes to talk about that, because we only want to hear about how wonderful foster care is and how it saves the children. People like me are told to shut up and don't sue the state (if you can even find a brave enough lawyer to do it), or else find your family in danger.
Do I have your sympathy now? Of course not, because it reveals your bias to only want to hear what makes you feel good and righteous for what you think. Darwin forbid if someone disagrees with you and defend kids who are abused by the very system that claims to protect them.
I'm not defending Grandma. I wasn't there to see the other side of the story. I'd be the last person to defend a true abuser. I replied solely to how you responded to said situation you claim to be true from your point-of-view. Instead of going to the police to find out if that situation warranted their involvement, you came to an internet board to find out. I'm not impressed.
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I am/would be willing to testify in a court of law. I got documentation in case it went any further so I would have info for the police if I needed to call. I did not call because I do not know the law explicitly about whether it is illegal to smack a kid like that; I do know I would call the police if a stranger did that to me, but sadly this seems to be "OK" for a caregiver.
The "listening in" was done from 20 feet away in a loud room. The conversation was evident to everyone.
Yes, I do have a strong opinion against smacking and pinching small kids in one's care.
I was hoping I might be able to learn enough info to at least alert the mom, so in case she wasn't aware of grandma's tactics she'd be informed. My kids are never left with a certain relative because of similar actions.
So what would you have me do? Completely ignore? If you think it's not abuse (so no police) and just me on my high horse about "that sort of discipline" do you think no action, whether words to the grandma or "snitching" to mom is warranted?
You don't know the law, so that's why you didn't call? So it never occurred to you to call the police to find out? :huh:
What would I have you do? If I was there to see the situation play out, I would have an opinion, but I wasn't there to witness any of it. I only have your side of the story. I don't give blanket advice for a situation as ambiguous as that where even a small detail that is even slightly fabricated could change my entire opinion.
It would be really interesting to hear Grandma's side of the story, but seeing how no one here has that, it's rather foolish to even be discussing this.
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I have girlfriends like what you describe and the ones I stay around are the ones I still have a connection with despite the times we're together and it's depressing. There are others where I just don't feel connected to them at all, so I quietly make my distance (or vice versa) and they eventually find someone else they connect with. No hard feelings.
So I suppose it depends on how connected you are to her. If she's worth it, you'll still have that wine with her, but if not, you could just start lessening the amount of contact you have with her on a gradual basis, if you're not wanting to hurt her feelings.
You could always ask if you could invite another friend along anyways. I've met some great people when friends have done that and even had a situation where the invited friend and I became closer than with the original mutual friend of ours. Our mutual friend didn't mind, because she was the type to be extremely social and thought it was great. That can be a tricky situation, though, so I don't recommend it unless you're okay with the possibility of you being the third-wheel.-
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The only reason I knew that child abuse was wrong growing up was because strangers spoke up when it happened in front of them. The way strangers would speak to my mom and respect me really changed the way I saw the world. I guess I was less scared and more hopeful. Given the opportunity I would have said something.
I might have said something, too, if I felt it truly warranted it, but I wouldn't have thought it warranted needing to involve authorities. Grandma is probably a product of her upbringing, but I know Italian grandmothers who sometimes still do that to their adult children and it's understood, you respect Grandma. Grandma isn't abusing them, but in their culture, you learn to respect elders and they do it like that, rather than with words. I think some people misunderstand that sort of thing if they don't grow up with that.
I think we all will know when something is abuse versus when it is a simple act of discipline we might disagree with. I wouldn't do what that grandma did, but it didn't make what she did wrong either.
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We were at a restaurant with a kids' play area today. Right as i walked in I witnessed a grandmother (I thought mother at the time) smack her 4 or 5-year-old grandson in the face. What happened was his older brother (6ish) told her he asked to see another boy's privates while they were up on the play area (and the kid did it). After she yelled and threatened and smacked him she calmed down, then later talked more calmly and discovered what actually happened was the other boy, who was about 7, asked the younger boy if he wanted to see, and when the younger boy answered "yes" he then exposed himself.
She told the mom of the older boy what happened and he confirmed it (while saying "It wasn't ALL my fault--he said yes!" The grandmother looked a bit sheepish after finding out the truth, but didn't apologize to the little boy. When he said, "See! It wasn't my fault!" she said, "That's right. But you shouldn't say 'yes'" in a gentle voice.
Later grandmother (Late 40s or early 50s I would guess) was hovering and micromanaging the two boys and 3-year-old girl, probably in reaction to the earlier incident. She was hyper-concerned about them taking turns on the various equipment. When the younger boy tried to "cut" in line, she pinched his neck to move him to the back of the line. She also pinched the arm of the 3-year-old for trying to get up to play rather than eating.
I really wanted to say something to her, but I was worried she'd mistreat them worse if that is her norm in public for very typical kid behavior. My heart hurts for those kids. I didn't think it was severe enough that calling the police would be useful, but what to you think? In your experience, would they follow up on a smack to the face? It wasn't a full up slap--she was holding his arm and had his face up by hers and smacked him from a few inches away when she didn't believe his answer. There were several others there, and we all stared and glared, but no one spoke up. Would you? Have you?
I snapped a pic of her and learned the boy's first name, but was unable to get their license plate.
(I do not apologize for what I'm about to say. This sort of mentality hurt me greatly as a child and it makes me downright angry when I see it, because I lost loved ones as a result.)
Unless you are willing to testify in a court of law, what you did was childish. If Grandma was breaking the law, call the police right then and there. If that child was in immediate danger, you should have done something! Instead, you snapped a picture, listened in a conversation that wasn't yours, and attempted to get her license plate number to snitch on her like a school girl without any consequences, because you could do it anonymously.
Good gracious, if the child is in danger, then you did something very bad by allowing that child to be in more danger. However, I suspect you only have a moral ground of sand that means you instinctively know the situation was not a danger to the child, but you have a strong opinion against that sort of discipline and wanted the Grandma to know about it. You stayed silent, because even you knew this did not warrant a police investigation.
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It's a common conundrum for those kids who really excel at Scratch.
In my view Python isn't an ideal next step, because its hard to do cool graphical games in such as way they can be shared with friends. Showing off your work to friends and family is an important validation.
Javascript is a good next step, but most of the online tutorials are too vocationally oriented. It's too big a jump.
http://www.s2js.com is a site specifically designed to take kids who are a whizz at Scratch, and move them onto Javascript so they can create cool games that will run directly on any device.
It's "Javascript as told to Scratchers" -- Javascript concepts and examples presented in terms of the Scratch stuff they already know.
We do it all the time. :confused1:
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OH MY GOODNESS! Just got the price for the surgery. They are saying that the insurance negotiated price is 30K, I would have to pay $8,517. What is INSANE is at the seminar they said the SELF PAY price for one procedure is $14,000. Not 30K. that's less than HALF! And yes, that 14K includes hospitilization, anesthesia, and the facility fee, etc. So, my insurance has "negotiated" a price that is TWICE the self pay price? What am I paying them $800 a month for??????
I want to throw up. I thought the price would be more aroudn 5K, not over 8K. That's a big difference. Now I see why so many people go to Mexico to have medical work done. Now, the guy at the hospital said that he didn't have an "exact code" so this was the general charge for inpatient surgery. Mind you, I asked about 2 different surgeries, one quoted as a self pay of 14K, the other a self pay of $20K and this guy at the hospital said it didn't matter, any surgery would be 30K, with my out of pocket at the 8.5K he told me. None of this makes sense. How does a longer, more involved procedure cost the same as the shorter procedure???
I am furious.
Wow, I'm really sorry! :(
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I'm looking at having a surgery, and some tests. And trying to find out how much to budget. My word, I've spoken to at least half a dozen people, some twice, and still have only about half the answers. No one knows anything, no one will say anything, the one person at the insurance company told me there was no such test and I must mean another one (no, I don't, those are entirely different things that just happen to start with the same letter!) etc. And you can't just check a price list, even if my state mandated those (we don't, but I hear some states do), it wouldn't matter, because the price is different based on the insurance company you have! Then one office said I'd already met my dedcutible, so I would only have to pay the 20% coinsurance. No, I have NOT met my deductible. I know I haven't. She couldn't tell me what the full price was. Luckily, I know how to multiply by 5 and could figure it out myself, lol.
Anyway, vent over. I don't see how they can expect you just to show up without knowing how much something is! And yet, when you call to find out, you get the runaround.
Vent over.
Now, I will say, I do know I'm VERY lucky to have healthcare, money, etc. I do know that. But for the $800 I pay every month for our families insurance (that doesn't even kick in until we spend 6K as a family) you'd think I could at least get someone on the phone that can give me some information. Or knows what an upper GI series is. (also told her Barium Swallow, but she still kept trying to tell me it was an endoscopy).
There is nothing lucky about being scammed. ALL health insurance is a scam and it hurts everyone.
:grouphug: I avoid medical offices like the plague for reasons like what you just described. I'm sorry. :(
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Is it ever profitable to say something in this situation?
in The Chat Board
Posted
My older kids have officially grounded me from this conversation. I'm having to eat my words when I tell them to walk away from things like this, but I didn't do that here.