My older kids have officially grounded me from this conversation. I'm having to eat my words when I tell them to walk away from things like this, but I didn't do that here.

1. You're certain, but... 2. I have been well aware of those facts for more years than I have fingers and toes. I did not read up on Google how CPS works. I lived it and it is quite fresh in my memory, considering that was my first experience in a courtroom. You don't forget something like that. You made it appear emergency always means temporary and it does not, but for you, that's justifiable.

1. An attorney whose paycheck comes from the state, correct? In another words, the attorney is working in favor of the state's interest, because that is their boss. You might as well dig your own grave, because you're on your own. 2. Emergency does not equal temporary, but in your mind, temporary justifies everything. I understand. That makes perfect sense.

My parents did have our family attorney from over two decades, because we were not poor and were well within resources to afford whatever my parents needed. CPS was still bent on not admitting their wrong and ruining everyone's lives in the process. You are right, however, because poorer families are usually the ones in the courtroom and are often times not aware of their rights.

I'm getting your message this morning, but I'll have to answer you later when dh comes home. He's the one who does all that with our kids and would know how to respond with specifics. I didn't know people had a problem with this, so that's why I was confused. Dh makes it seem effortless and suggested Python as the next step after Scratch.

Yes, I did give an answer. You refuse to accept it. You want me to agree with you and until I do, you won't accept my answer. I can't help you find clarity when you read into what I've written only what you want to hear.

You condemned this woman, but you have done the same. Good night.

:svengo: I gave an example of where someone might be coming from. Having an understanding of where someone is coming from doesn't mean I condone their behavior. :glare: Therefore, nothing about what I said is conflicting. Are you aware there are people who think taking your kids to fast food joints is child abuse?

I agree with the bolded. No one is perfect. Instead of being fast to throw stones, why don't we try to help carry the load of our fellow man? A person in that situation could have said, "It looks like you're having a hard day. Would you mind if I bought your meal, so you don't have to worry about that?" Maybe you would have rather written a note, but after you already paid for the meal. It is amazing what a kind act will do for someone.

Then I truly apologize for misunderstanding you. AndyJoy, even a good detective would doubt your story, not because of a slight on your character, but to protect the innocent. You would want the same courtesy given to you if someone was accusing you of a crime, wouldn't you? If I sound intent on doubting you, you're right. You accused grandma of abuse before an untold number of people on the internet without her ability to defend her side of the story. That doesn't go over well for someone like me who is very justice oriented. If grandma was wrong, then do something. You didn't do anything, which leads me to believe you either willfully allowed abuse to happen without standing up for the defenseless child, or the situation was not as bad as you say it was. I believed the latter before and that hasn't changed. One only needs to go to YouTube to find videos where if you just listen to the situation, you would expect an entirely different situation happened, but if you get to see what actually happened, you change your mind. Video is powerful for that reason. Recalling an event with our own memory is faulty and every courtroom knows this. It would be interesting to see on camera what the grandma actually did.

"New poster" with a "too strange to be true" radar? I see. That perfectly negates my story. CPS doesn't have any corruption and I lied about it all. You caught me. AndyJoy, it has been nice speaking to you. Good night.

Accidentally sent that post when I wasn't finished, but I'm too tired to write it all out again.

I missed this post earlier. I gave an example and you come back to say the grandma in your story is not Italian. :huh: Would you also propose I was also saying every Italian grandmother does this? Your mother did not smack you in the face, but she spanked you in a "calm manner". With all due respect, there are people in this world who think your mother abused you and should be in prison, preferably hung without a trial by jury. You are proving my point that you have to tread with caution with these things and be slow to say something is abuse when the situation is not black/white.

Where on earth did I ever say anything about that happening in my family? Do you see why I don't trust your testimony? You made up something about my family when I said absolutely nothing of the sort. You read something into my story that simply wasn't there! People reading that would have believed you if I didn't come to defend myself. The more you talk, the less I believe your story to be accurate, because if you added that to my story, what have you done to grandma's story?

Here's the deal. When family courts treat the accused the same way any other court does with a right to a trial by jury, then I will say to call police until your heart is content. Until then, I will never throw someone in that courtroom unless I truly believe they should be there. Every person should have the right to a trial by jury and this is the rare exception in family court. That is wrong.

Neither am I surprised to find people on here who are more than willing to throw someone under the bus for something they didn't witness and only "heard" about from a random poster on the internet.

There isn't an easy answer to any of this, because sometimes it's d*mned if you do and d*mned if you don't. Sometimes it is hard to know what to do. I will give you that, AndyJoy. I'm sorry for being hard on you. I just don't want people to be thoughtless about helping children that they inadvertently hurt them instead. My life was truly ruined as a result and I cannot stress that enough what it did to me as a child. Does my story not matter? I'm sorry for my tone.

What if you're that person who "speaks" up where you don't belong and ruins someone's life? I'm sorry, but my life was completely ruined as a child because of someone like you sticking their nose where it doesn't belong and fabricating the story into something it wasn't. Let me rest assure you, my time in foster jail was a million times worse than anything that could have ever happened to me at home. :mad: No one likes to talk about that, because we only want to hear about how wonderful foster care is and how it saves the children. People like me are told to shut up and don't sue the state (if you can even find a brave enough lawyer to do it), or else find your family in danger. Do I have your sympathy now? Of course not, because it reveals your bias to only want to hear what makes you feel good and righteous for what you think. Darwin forbid if someone disagrees with you and defend kids who are abused by the very system that claims to protect them. I'm not defending Grandma. I wasn't there to see the other side of the story. I'd be the last person to defend a true abuser. I replied solely to how you responded to said situation you claim to be true from your point-of-view. Instead of going to the police to find out if that situation warranted their involvement, you came to an internet board to find out. I'm not impressed.

You don't know the law, so that's why you didn't call? So it never occurred to you to call the police to find out? :huh: What would I have you do? If I was there to see the situation play out, I would have an opinion, but I wasn't there to witness any of it. I only have your side of the story. I don't give blanket advice for a situation as ambiguous as that where even a small detail that is even slightly fabricated could change my entire opinion. It would be really interesting to hear Grandma's side of the story, but seeing how no one here has that, it's rather foolish to even be discussing this.

I have girlfriends like what you describe and the ones I stay around are the ones I still have a connection with despite the times we're together and it's depressing. There are others where I just don't feel connected to them at all, so I quietly make my distance (or vice versa) and they eventually find someone else they connect with. No hard feelings. So I suppose it depends on how connected you are to her. If she's worth it, you'll still have that wine with her, but if not, you could just start lessening the amount of contact you have with her on a gradual basis, if you're not wanting to hurt her feelings. You could always ask if you could invite another friend along anyways. I've met some great people when friends have done that and even had a situation where the invited friend and I became closer than with the original mutual friend of ours. Our mutual friend didn't mind, because she was the type to be extremely social and thought it was great. That can be a tricky situation, though, so I don't recommend it unless you're okay with the possibility of you being the third-wheel.

I might have said something, too, if I felt it truly warranted it, but I wouldn't have thought it warranted needing to involve authorities. Grandma is probably a product of her upbringing, but I know Italian grandmothers who sometimes still do that to their adult children and it's understood, you respect Grandma. Grandma isn't abusing them, but in their culture, you learn to respect elders and they do it like that, rather than with words. I think some people misunderstand that sort of thing if they don't grow up with that. I think we all will know when something is abuse versus when it is a simple act of discipline we might disagree with. I wouldn't do what that grandma did, but it didn't make what she did wrong either.

(I do not apologize for what I'm about to say. This sort of mentality hurt me greatly as a child and it makes me downright angry when I see it, because I lost loved ones as a result.) Unless you are willing to testify in a court of law, what you did was childish. If Grandma was breaking the law, call the police right then and there. If that child was in immediate danger, you should have done something! Instead, you snapped a picture, listened in a conversation that wasn't yours, and attempted to get her license plate number to snitch on her like a school girl without any consequences, because you could do it anonymously. Good gracious, if the child is in danger, then you did something very bad by allowing that child to be in more danger. However, I suspect you only have a moral ground of sand that means you instinctively know the situation was not a danger to the child, but you have a strong opinion against that sort of discipline and wanted the Grandma to know about it. You stayed silent, because even you knew this did not warrant a police investigation.

We do it all the time. :confused1:

Wow, I'm really sorry! :(

There is nothing lucky about being scammed. ALL health insurance is a scam and it hurts everyone. :grouphug: I avoid medical offices like the plague for reasons like what you just described. I'm sorry. :(