Wishes
-
Posts
430 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Events
Blogs
Classifieds
Store
Posts posted by Wishes
-
-
@prairiewindmomma and @kbutton You both have been so helpful with information. I feel like our kids must be similar. Just took my son to a Vision clinic and he was assessed with convergence issues as well as a (very slight) exotropia. They, of course, recommend therapy. I have been trying to find out more about it and read this article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9777217/
It seems like my son would be helped with the convergence issues. My daughter has a more extreme exotropia - very noticeable, and I was thinking about having her assessed, but it looks like research supporting vision therapy as helpful is slim. She already sees a opthamologist who has recommended waiting to see if surgery is needed (it has worsened over the last year). I found another article that seemed positive. https://www.journalofoptometry.org/en-vision-therapy-for-intermittent-exotropia-articulo-S1888429620300819 I would like more research articles if you know of them. I have bookmarked the sources you wrote about @prairiewindmomma. I will admit, two kids having vision therapy once a week for a possible two years (as per doctor's thoughts - but not set in stone) would be extremely expensive. Were the results significant enough to warrant therapy?
-
So sorry Tap. Your daughter had so many challenges. Like SKL said, I hope she can access some services that will assist her path to early adulthood and beyond. Gentle hugs.
-
2
-
-
20 hours ago, SFisher said:
What are his strength areas? Generally you can use strengths to support weaknesses. It’s possible that he’s already doing this -compensating.
Academically his strength is his long term memory. In a general sense: he has a great sense of humor, he is cheerful, an extrovert (kids at his outdoor school love him), kind, curious about everything, physically adroit, loves nature, and loves taking things apart.
1 hour ago, kbutton said:Just making sure—did you rule out developmental vision issues? I would assume those would suppress the block stuff on the WISC, but 2e is so all over the map that you can’t be sure sometimes! Convergence issues can really mess stuff up.
Does it matter if he’s handling the objects or if you are? One of my kids had retained reflexes, which made his head and his hands stay “tied” together, so if he moved his head, his hands would move and vice versa, and that meant if his hands were supposed to be one place while his head moved up and down or side to side, he lost his place. In his case, it would show up in copywork—he could copy only small portions into an immediately adjacent space, and anything more spread out was a hot mess. This can affect stuff like pointing also.
Also, if the issue is consistently with just certain numbers, could this be dyslexic word finding vs. dyscalculia? Could he have gotten the words filed in a shaky spot rather than being shaky on the concept?
Just some thoughts because brains are weird!
We had an OT assessment (which confirmed the dysgraphia) and he recommended a vision assessment. I have it scheduled. He also noticed a couple of things with primitive reflexes. I will admit that I don’t know enough about either of these areas to be highly enthusiastic. I would imagine there would be some improvement, but to what degree especially as to the cost.
as to your last point, I don’t think so.
-
1
-
-
He would recognize two versus three cookies, yes. Good point. He has funny gaps. We were doing a RS halving lesson. I piled 30 tiles and he separated them into 15 each w/o counting. And, he didn’t have the same pattern for each of us. But he did it. It makes me think the 3/4 thing is just processing speed, except it happens often.
-
Thank you for all the replies. Sorry I’m slow in responding.
On 3/23/2024 at 2:42 PM, Rosie_0801 said:Google 'CSMP Materials.' My dyscalculic daughter wouldn't have learned maths without it.
Your questions are more for educational psychologists than neuropsychs.
Thank you @Rosie_0801 I did see that you recommended them in several Dyscalculia threads. I am going through it.
16 hours ago, Drama Llama said:Maybe this is a difference between language country to country, because in the US these are exactly the questions a neuropsychologist addresses in a neuropsych evaluation.
I have a lot of thoughts on this, and hope to come back but my first thought is that Kindergarten is very young in terms of neuropsych, and that the picture is going to continue to emerge.
What is your hope as far as how diagnoses will clarify things? Are you hoping it will access services for him? Or direct you to instructional materials?
Thanks @Drama Llama. My hope for a diagnosis is two-fold. One, I was hoping for more understanding about how my son could score so high (by far one of his highest scores) in the visual puzzles subtest and not be able to recognize the difference between two and three consistently. I mean, he recognizes two, but he will often name three as two or four. Even when I try to get him to stop, breathe, and not go with his impulse answer. Patterning has been difficult for him too. I do feel like if it were processing speed/working memory, I would stick with RS and just move more slowly. Practice until he has a better grasp. If it’s dyscalculia, go with Ronit Bird. Secondly, as I mentioned upthread, I’m a single mom and if something happens to me, I want to make sure he has access to services, the right services. Like you, I taught in a self- contained EBD classroom. While I think I did the best I could with all my students, it is not a place he would thrive. Our district doesn’t have a gifted program; they have a “highly capable “ program which caters to non-LD children working two grades ahead. I am a planner, by nature. I want to provide as much information as possible for my kids and family if they’d have to navigate supports from the school system.
8 hours ago, Drama Llama said:In the US an educational psychologist doesn't usually deal with individual students, although there are exceptions. They are more of a research psychologist, looking at questions such as whether there's an evidence base for curricula. Neuropsychologists and school psychologist are the two professions that are more likely to see individual students, and do diagnostic work. Of the two neuropsychologists are more highly educated, but school psychologists, because they work in the school system, may have more knowledge of the curricular choices that are available in that school system. Neither profession, in the US, usually makes curricular recommendations. They'll talk in general about the kinds of things a child needs in a curriculum, but taking that information and deciding what resources to use is up to the parent or professional.
But that's an aside. What I really wanted to say is that educational diagnoses for kids in September of Kindergarten isn't going to be very precise for a variety of reasons. One is that kids that age, even typically developing ones, often struggle with attention, impulse control, and self-regulation all of which can make the test results unreliable. Another is that kids at that point often have enormous differences in early experiences. So, for example, a lot of what you describe is relatively normal for kids who come to kindergarten without an enriched background, but it might raise red flags for a kid coming from your particular household who has had more academic experiences. So, saying, this pattern of strength and weaknesses can often lead to dyscalculia, but it's just too early to make that diagnosis, seems like a pretty valid response.
What led you to do get the neuropsych?
That is true. I went to the neuropych because I suspected ADHD. I also wanted to see how significant his processing speed and working memory were being impacted.
7 hours ago, PeterPan said:Fwiw, the (remove profanity) neuropsych that eval'ed my ds at that same age, newly 6, did the same (remove profanity) thing saying his TEST SCORES WERE SO HIGH THAT IT COULDN'T BE AN SLD. So he diagnosed the dyslexia and dysgraphia, called him gifted/2E, and then for bonus said I was incompetent to teach him.
So there IS NO test for dyscalculia. There's a university in the UK that had some pilot tool they were working on and Ronit Bird posted about it ages ago. Doesn't matter because your ds clearly has the issue and the IQ would allow him to mask. Eventually it will become painfully, astonishingly apparent. It's why my ds can in the same year be doing math MANY grades apart, because he's just all over the place. Also his explanation of the word problems issue is probably incorrect. I know zero about you, but your post is screaming autism. Again, (remove profanity) $$$$$$$ well regarded, author of the tools your neuropsych probably used (yes I get really upset about this almost 10 years later) was SO WRONG about my kid. He didn't listen and he didn't know how to slow down and see what was in front of him.
My ds, within a few years, was given an ASD2 label plus all the SLDs plus of course the gifted IQ, and that all together finally got us enough picture to make sense. I don't know your kid, but you are definitely correct that you're seeing things and definitely correct that $$$$$ can be incomplete at this stage. Unless it was a Hoagie's Gifted psych or someone who sees a lot of super complex kids, assume there's more. Work with what you're seeing, not what the paper says, and be very gentle.
Thank you @PeterPan. I’m sorry that your neuropsych experience was so frustrating. I am trying to diss out the different influences. I’m sure as the years go on there will be different paths. He was exposed to substances in utero in addition to LDs/Speech issues being in his FOO.
6 hours ago, PeterPan said:1) no tests for number sense, only the actual math skills which the gifted IQ + Ronit Bird will fake out for a while yet
2) neuropsychs don't have money back guarantees or any consequence when they're wrong
3) they don't really listen
I can give you the advice I was given: teach him like he's math gifted with a math disability. Computation and mathematical thinking are NOT one in the same and they are NOT even in the same parts of the brain. Get Sousa's book on How the Brain Learns Math and read it and believe it. Teach the child you see. I try to have in a given math session something that speaks to a math weakness, something that speaks to a math strength, and something that is hands on or applied.
You will not go wrong using your common sense. You may cause him to HATE math if you do not. To me, computation is largely negotiable but word problems are not. So we have done Ronit Bird methodology but then handed him any tool he wants for computation (phone, calculator, multiplication machine, abacus, multiplication tables, etc.). Lots of word problem workbooks. Evan Moor has terrific ones, enough to keep you busy infinitely. I find the Lakeshore Learning kits incredibly useful. I like the supplemental books from Didax and find if you punch them up 3-4 grade levels you can find something that speaks to his gifted sign. Do not assume your dc's math skills are homogenous. I also got a series that I'm not sure you can get now that was sort of back to basics for things like MEASURING. A whole workbook on measuring. Measuring rooms and feet and desks and just lots of reality, kwim? And there are other cool resources (GEMS units, etc.). Have you done pattern tiles? We did a book on symmetry that was so fun.
Teach him like he's math gifted with a math disability.
I will pick up Sousa’s book, thanks for the recommendation. Will look at the resources mentioned. Patterning was hard for him too.
6 hours ago, PeterPan said:Btw, it's really easy to equate your dc's progress with the quality of your work. If you are DILIGENT and using sensitive, gentle, consistent methodology, I would absolve yourself of questions of whether you're doing enough. Your child's progress does NOT DEFINE you or your worth or how good a job you're doing.
Your child is going to progress relative to themselves. Give them the grace to do that and yourself the grace to know that if you've been consistent (within the context of their developmental and behavioral readiness) you've done enough.
Thank you. I appreciate that. I will take these words to heart.
-
Congrats!!
-
On 3/22/2024 at 10:23 AM, prairiewindmomma said:
A few thoughts:
1. You could both be right. It’s hard to sort out when a kid is 6.
2. Most neuropsychs dont know about or do specific dyscalculia testing. We are about 20 years behind the UK in our understanding of dyscalculia.
3. Singapore math, MUS, and Ronit Bird’s dots material are great programs for young dyscalcics. You want hands on materials to help build number sense. When my dyscalcic kid got stuck on number pairs, we hopped around on different topics for a bit and came back to it. Have you tried using cuisenaire rods, laying out a number based on a rod and then having him build that number using other rod combinations? Have you tried spending time on weight, measures, time, money, or shapes?
Bumping his prefrontal cortex functioning with adhd meds will likely help, but it’s only going to get you part of the way if he’s truly dyscalcic.
I’ll try to dig through my stack of dyscalculia stuff and add to that thread on LC sometime in the next week. I got stalled out for a bit with sick kids followed by a kid surgery yesterday.
Thank you @prairiewindmomma. I am concerned about how few resources there are to diagnose dyscalculia as well as curriculum in the US. Thank you for the resources. I hope that your sick kids and child who had surgery recover quickly and with strength.
On 3/22/2024 at 11:20 AM, EKS said:All of what you are describing could be due to dyslexia. My son (who is now an 27), is 2E with dyslexia and he had major problems with all aspects of the elementary school curriculum. He presented as being much less intelligent that he actually was until about 5th grade. I'd meet your son where he is and not worry a whole lot about the specific diagnosis just yet.
That is a good point @EKS and something I will do. The concern with the diagnosis is mostly two-fold. I am and have been working with dyslexic children for 20 years. My son is progressing as I would hope in reading. He is not doing the same in math, so I feel a bit like I am letting him down. Secondly, I am a single mom and I do have a fear that if I died and he was put into school, that all of his needs wouldn’t be addressed and his confidence about his intelligence would plummet.
23 hours ago, domestic_engineer said:I don’t have advice much advice about the NP. However, I DO have a dyslexic and I did use Rightstart with all my kids. My dyslexic had the exact same things you described. I, too, pulled in Ronit Bird’s materials. And the dots/dominoes worked much better for my student for Subitizing. But what worked the BEST was pulling in the Cuisinaire Rods as our go-to manipulative. I know Dr. Cotter has her reasons for not using the rods, but it worked with my kiddo. (The website Education Unboxed is a great resource for Cuisinaire Rods.)
I do think that the NP’s hypothesis of it all stemming from issues with Rapid Naming has some merit. My kiddo has issues retrieving words and that slows things down. Another child of mine often misspoke; they calculated X in their head but then the word Y comes out of their mouth. Sigh. Have you tried taking the language aspect out of math? For example, have the student point to a “word bank” instead of having to come up with the correct word. Or use number stamps to answer questions. If you skip over the objective of being able to subitize, can you still make good progress in math? From personal experience, I’d encourage you to make sure you don’t let language issues keep you from developing their math skills.
Thank you @domestic_engineer. I was curious about the rapid naming element. I will try using stamps and see if there’s a matter of verbal word retrieval. He did receive SLP services until he was 4.
19 hours ago, kbutton said:My mildly dyslexic/dyscalculic kid did very well with cuisinaire rods. We used MUS Primer first and then Miquon. I would stick with Ronit Bird and see what happens.
DS’s RAN/RAS scores were low.
Thank you @kbutton. I am seeing a lot of recommendations for Cuisenaire rods. I will have to dig them out of my storage.
-
He is six and I started kindergarten curriculum with him this summer.
in the matter or more/less, my concern is more like if we are talking about subitizing 5 he might say 4 and 3 make up 5 without recognizing that it’s way off.
He is 2E and has dysgraphia and dyslexia so parsing out what is processing speed and short-term memory issues and what might be LDs is difficult to parse out
-
Crossposting to Learning Challenges Board
In September I posted about my son’s neuropsych report and a few qualms that I had with it. I recently contacted the neuropych in regards to my son’s math skills and the likelihood of dyscalculia. My response is italicized.
I was also hoping to speak to you about his mathematics. As I continue work with him, I am becoming more concerned about math. I know you didn’t find dyscalculia in your testing, but here is what I am seeing. He has trouble determining the difference between 2 and 3 and between 4 and 5 amounts (on an abacus and also in items). He has issues with more and less. When we use a math balance, he would find that 2+2=4 for example. However, if the next one was something like 4+4, he would start with less numbers (4 again or even lower). Subitizing 5 has been challenging. I have been using Right Start A with him which is a strong visual/active learning base, however, I am at the point that I felt like I needed to stop. I am using some materials by a woman in the UK who specializes in dyscalculia, Ronit Bird. We are focusing on using the dot patterns in dominoes and dice and he seems to have a better discernment. So here is my dilemma; I am having a hard time deciding how much is processing and if there is something dyscalculia at work. He learned (through the program) to identify numbers on a two-colored abacus). He has trouble with 2/3 sometimes like I said earlier. If the number is seven, he will sometimes call out 2. I see this as his processing, because he sees the one color and is not processing the other. But other times, there seems to be a real disconnect in his understanding. It confuses me how he has such strong scores in the visual part of the WISC but struggles between 2 and 3 items. I had him work through an online assessment through DynamoMaths, an online program for dyscalculia, and he scored low. Do you have a specific program you used to measure his math or was it a discrepancy between the IQ and academic assessment. Do you have an alternative assessment you use to go further into the dyscalculia?
His response is bolded:
Regarding math, his basic calculations are intact, but the word-based problems are being impacted by his reading scores - we need to keep an eye on this though as he progresses through school as I could be consistent with Dyscalculia at some point. The inconsistency you are seeing might be due to his low automaticity skills (Rapid Naming) which can impact reading fluency, spelling, and math fluency. Regarding math programs, I like the Math-U-See Program and Singapore Math programs.
First of all, I don’t believe my concerns were addressed. In the testing, my son used marks to add up the simple addition problems he completed. I didn’t mention word based problems and that isn’t even something we are working on. I understand automaticity. How does that address his confusion in amounts? What about his seeming confusion about less and more?
I’m feeling frustrated and a bit concerned. I want to make sure I’m on the right track with my son. I am still working on the medication end to help his focus and short term memory, but I want to address the LDs as well. Am I missing something in the response? -
Crossposting to Learning Challenges Board
In September I posted about my son’s neuropsych report and a few qualms that I had with it. I recently contacted the neuropych in regards to my son’s math skills and the likelihood of dyscalculia. My response is italicized.
I was also hoping to speak to you about his mathematics. As I continue work with him, I am becoming more concerned about math. I know you didn’t find dyscalculia in your testing, but here is what I am seeing. He has trouble determining the difference between 2 and 3 and between 4 and 5 amounts (on an abacus and also in items). He has issues with more and less. When we use a math balance, he would find that 2+2=4 for example. However, if the next one was something like 4+4, he would start with less numbers (4 again or even lower). Subitizing 5 has been challenging. I have been using Right Start A with him which is a strong visual/active learning base, however, I am at the point that I felt like I needed to stop. I am using some materials by a woman in the UK who specializes in dyscalculia, Ronit Bird. We are focusing on using the dot patterns in dominoes and dice and he seems to have a better discernment. So here is my dilemma; I am having a hard time deciding how much is processing and if there is something dyscalculia at work. He learned (through the program) to identify numbers on a two-colored abacus). He has trouble with 2/3 sometimes like I said earlier. If the number is seven, he will sometimes call out 2. I see this as his processing, because he sees the one color and is not processing the other. But other times, there seems to be a real disconnect in his understanding. It confuses me how he has such strong scores in the visual part of the WISC but struggles between 2 and 3 items. I had him work through an online assessment through DynamoMaths, an online program for dyscalculia, and he scored low. Do you have a specific program you used to measure his math or was it a discrepancy between the IQ and academic assessment. Do you have an alternative assessment you use to go further into the dyscalculia?
His response is bolded:
Regarding math, his basic calculations are intact, but the word-based problems are being impacted by his reading scores - we need to keep an eye on this though as he progresses through school as I could be consistent with Dyscalculia at some point. The inconsistency you are seeing might be due to his low automaticity skills (Rapid Naming) which can impact reading fluency, spelling, and math fluency. Regarding math programs, I like the Math-U-See Program and Singapore Math programs.
First of all, I don’t believe my concerns were addressed. In the testing, my son used marks to add up the simple addition problems he completed. I didn’t mention word based problems and that isn’t even something we are working on. I understand automaticity. How does that address his confusion in amounts? What about his seeming confusion about less and more?
I’m feeling frustrated and a bit concerned. I want to make sure I’m on the right track with my son. I am still working on the medication end to help his focus and short term memory, but I want to address the LDs as well. Am I missing something in the response? -
You could just tell them what you’ve said here. That you think about the future and feel fearful about what might happen if one or both of them dies. They might have already discussed this between themselves. They sound compassionate and they know the loss and trauma you have experienced. It is natural to wonder about your future and not want to have your life upended again.
-
6
-
-
Does she know you’ve been dropping tidbits to the Hive for awhile 😊
-
(((hugs))))
-
Mashed potatoes, rice, sweet potato, Mac and cheese chopped up a bit, shakes, scrambled eggs, creamed corn, yogurt
-
1
-
-
Hope things are better today. Sending hope for healing
-
So sorry you are continuing to deal with these challenges Melissa. Hoping so hard for clearer answers, a better prognosis, and easier days
-
1
-
-
Thanks! That’s what I thought. He told me “the answer key said…..” and I told him the key was most likely wrong. However, I wanted to have my thoughts double-checked. Thanks again!
-
1
-
-
One of my students received this sentence in his class to parse:
Josh studied attentively while eating Doritos.
In this sentence the grading sheet said while was actings a subordinating conjunction and eating was a verb, but that the sentence was simple. From my understanding, if you have a subordinating conjunction, you had a dependent clause and if you have a dependent clause, you don't have a simple sentence. Can someone explain this?
-
Glad you are doing better. Hope for lower numbers tomorrow
-
1
-
-
Amazing! You are a fabulous composer Spencer!
-
That is so much to deal with! I’m especially sorry about your husband‘s injury and your friends death. Hope things start getting better soon.
-
1
-
-
Hope for healing and peace to you and your family
-
1
-
-
Sending healing energy your way
-
1
-
-
So very, very sorry for your loss
Sydney shopping centre stabbing
in The Chat Board
Posted
This came across my newsfeed this morning. So sad to hear about it.