Instead of only posting snippits of her post, here is the post I quoted from above. This is from the "supportive" RS4K Yahoo Group I joined as a mom who puchased the RS4K materials. I have no problem with her being a Christian -- but when she is coaching, even on the support group, how to make me look like a fool and to teach them how to "plant a seed of belief" in my unbelieving heart.... whew..... Been there, done that, dunked in a tank and now believe..... I was born okay the first time:tongue_smilie: Now, out hundreds of dollars for her materials I have to decide if we use them anyway -- Well, here is the quote: "I'll write this up and put it on my website. I'll probably do a blog first and then convert that into an article that I'll put in my elibrary. In the meantime, I'll give you the short answer since the debate is live right now and you need something to respond with. A few tips for the debate. The first point is to remember that the person who is asking the questions is in charge of the conversation. Often, especially when the discussion has an emotional charge to it (like evolution-creation debates) we want so much to defend our side that we get stuck in a dynamic of arguing against their information and lose control of the debate. For example, someone says "evolution is fact" and you know that it is not fact, so you launch into a discussion about how evolution is not fact. It's quite easy to get stuck in this back and forth defense against the "data" and end up with the other side controlling the conversation by asking you questions like "how do you know that evolution is not fact?" which puts you in a defensive position arguing how you know evolution is not a fact and losing control of the debate. So - to control the conversation- you ask the questions. The second point is that you are not going to win the argument so give up the agenda of "winning" right from the start. Winning isn't the point anyway. Yes, there is no scientific evidence that we evolved from the primordial soup, and it doesn't matter. These debates are not about the science (even though science is the content of the discussion) - these debates are about beliefs (religion) and you don't change beliefs by arguing against them. You change beliefs by planting a seed that can one day grow into a new belief and so the point of the debate is to plant a seed. Get the other side to doubt, even just a little, what they are saying, and you've taken the first step in growing a new belief. The third point is to keep in mind that the burden of proof is in their lap, not yours. They need to prove to you that science has shown how we evolved from the primordial soup. It is not up to you to prove how science hasn't shown this- even though it is very easy to do. Now -for the science itself. I don't know the exact phrasing of your co-worker's statement, so I am guessing it is something like "Science has shown how man evolved from ... fill in the blank (apes, lizards, fish, chemical precursors, etc.). This statement is an appeal to authority (which you can call them on if you are so inclined) and most people say it without realizing the logical fallacy of their statement. Also, this statement assumes that all of the steps going from chemical precursors to man have been proven by this authority "science." So the first step is to ask "What science?" "Who proved it?" and "What was proven?" [This is the point of the Critical Thinking Kog. If you have a CTKOG pull it out and read the intro and do the first chapter to get you in the Socratic mode of asking these kinds of questions]. Remember you are in control of the debate by asking questions and they have to prove to you how science has shown this by answering your questions. Depending on what they say, you can repeat the questions and ask for details. Like I said, the main assumption in these statements is that each of the stages of evolution have been proven. So big bang to chemical precursors--->chemical precursors to functional protein and DNA--->functional protein and DNA to living single cell---->living single cell to living organism---->living organism to fish or lizard or whatever----> fish, lizard, etc to ape----> ape to man. The scientific reality is that none of these steps have been scientifically proven given the standards of scientific proof. All you need to do is ask your co-worker - How do chemical precursors turn into functional protein and DNA? Who discovered it? When did they discover it? If you did get functional protein and DNA how do you get a functional cell? Which scientist discovered this? When did they discover it? Where is the paper because I'd like to read it? At about this point the conversation is pretty much over. The fact is you can't get functional protein or DNA from chemical precursors (small molecules or atoms). No one has shown how this could happen and there are no viable theories for how it might occur. If you get an educated opponent they may throw out the Miller-Urey experiment and the theory of emergent properties as "proof", and so don't get sidetracked - these are not "proof" and until they can show you how science has shown how water, oxygen, and carbon can make a functional ribosome or any other specific functional protein, then they haven't shown you how science has proven life evolved. End of story. Then you can send them away with a whole bunch of homework. Create a critical thinking lens for each of these steps of evolution and hand it to them. Tell them that until they can come back with all the information filled in then from critical thinking and scientific perspective, what they are saying is no different than saying the moon is made of green cheese. You haven't won the debate and they are still not going to believe you. However, if they are intellectually honest with themselves and eager to prove you wrong, they'll get upset enough to look up all this stuff on their own and maybe even do an "Anthony Flew" (an atheist who has since embraced deism because of the arguments presented by intelligent design). Ok - hope that helps. I'll try to write up something more concrete with references for the blog and elibrary. If you need anything else before then, just let me know. Blessings, Rebecca"

This was the part of one of Dr. Keller's responses which I thought was most indicative of the level of her reasoning -- so my belief in evolution has as much reason as belief that the moon is made of cheese -- Gee thanks for the insult. Quote from one of Dr. Keller's posts "At about this point the conversation is pretty much over. The fact is you can't get functional protein or DNA from chemical precursors (small molecules or atoms). No one has shown how this could happen and there are no viable theories for how it might occur. If you get an educated opponent they may throw out the Miller-Urey experiment and the theory of emergent properties as "proof", and so don't get sidetracked - these are not "proof" and until they can show you how science has shown how water, oxygen, and carbon can make a functional ribosome or any other specific functional protein, then they haven't shown you how science has proven life evolved. End of story. Then you can send them away with a whole bunch of homework. Create a critical thinking lens for each of these steps of evolution and hand it to them. Tell them that until they can come back with all the information filled in then from critical thinking and scientific perspective, what they are saying is no different than saying the moon is made of green cheese. " (emphasis mine) I had bought the whole set of her books ($!) and am struggling with a decision to use them or not -- this has certainly tainted the joy I used to feel when I planned with them. Kristin in Hawaii

It sounds like she loves reading and you fighting her over this could really backfire. I have always loved reading and many times will skip ahead and then go back to savor it. Laugh with her instead. Seriously. Best wishes, Kristin in Hawaii

Thank you so much for this post! I can feel the anxiety and frustration melting from my mind -- I have to remind myself where his brain is at much of the time.... "discovering" he.... has hair, needs deodorant, how deep his voice is today, etcetera. I am wonderfully proud of my son and every day I see him do good stuff -- but this post was just what I needed :001_smile:

Quoting Melissel: "I have to agree with the others. I'm a reasonably confident atheist, but I don't teach my kids that there is no divine being, because I have no proof there is none. I'm fully willing to admit that I could be wrong, because there's just no way to know. I teach my kids that, "I believe..." and "Daddy believes..." and our Jewish friends believe..., and that any of us could end up being right, but we don't know for sure. Frankly though, other religions simply don't reach any meaningful part of my being. They do appeal to my desire for a sense of community and to my appreciation of the beauty of ceremony and history, but in the past, when I've tried to accept the Bible and other beliefs as true and divine, I just...can't." I just wanted to skip in and thank you for stating my feelings, almost precisely. I remember praying to God to help me believe -- because I wanted to fit in and share in the community. Won't be a hypocrite. Life is good -- beautiful -- fascinating... thanks.

I have just re-read both of those and they seem so different now that I am an adult of 43 years. I would not introduce them to my son for a few more years (he is 13 now) but they are too important to miss. Conditioning.... whew... Aloha, Kristin

I just started listening to "The New Testament" lecture series by Bart Ehrman and so far, so good. He really clearly explains how/when the "books" and "gospels" came about. I think he is agnostic now -- happened somewhere along his journey to his degree in Divinity, as I understand it. Anyhow, I don't know if your son would be up to it -- my 13 yr. old son is not -- but it is helping me to understand and then share with him. Good luck! Kristin

I love it -- I come here and read with my coffee every morning and enjoy the wide variety of ideas we all come up with. Our house sounds like the other end of the spectrum from yours. Stacked on our table are Gargantua and Pantagruel (Raffel's translation of a much banned French book from 500 yrs ago), Pagoo by H.C. Holling, The Golden Compass, Meditations of Marcus Aurelius, and countless classics on history and the arts. My son is 13 years old and I told him it is time to start diving into adult subject matter (not the smutty romance novels favored by my grandmother) so we can discuss it and work through it. I am reading Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali and listening to Teaching Company lectures about the New Testament every day. At the public school my son tried out a few weeks ago (curious what it was like -- wanted to come home quickly after he was disappointed) they had no books to send home and filled their class time with bland worksheets and politically/religiously neutered pablum (sp?). Whew, I'm so glad we homeschool. Sorry, pretty much everything I have listed, with the exception of SOTW and Pagoo would probably fail your standards for your daughter -- and I respect her right to share those standards too, if she so chooses. Good luck with your search!

Okay, I admit it, I'm hooked on the Teaching Company Lectures -- I feel like I am just beginning to grasp an education which helps me make sense of our world. They make me feel lucky to have a 30 minute commute to work :) Enjoyed listening in on my son's new adventure this morning: European History for Junior High Mr. Powell's "History at Our House". So far, so good, except that his class begins at 05:45 am as we live in Hawaii :tongue_smilie: Aloha...

:tongue_smilie:

Okay, I have a nice compound microscope from Sonlight - great... but collecting dust. The BEST investment I made was a Proscope HR with the 100 x objective -- will run you about $350 but it is great! Durable and plugs right into my little portable netbook for exploring at Boy Scout meetings, the dinner table, new/old wounds, barnacles on scalp and fine print on $5 bills. I splurged and spent over $1000 on the full set but the 100 x objective is the only lens we use day in and day out. I won't drown you with details but I bought it from the manufacturer, Bodelin, and received great service. No regrets here. Link: http://www.bodelin.com/proscopehr/buy_now/ Learn, decide for yourself -- I feel there is a place for both kinds of scopes but if you want to know which gets used all the time, it is definitely the Proscope ymmv

Hello, I don't post often but have homeschooled my 13 y.o. son all his life. We found the Pentime series to be great for this reluctant handwriter. $4 from Clay Book Store, 2 years ago. Used by a Quaker family I met then and my son has enjoyed it and done very well. We are secular and he just chooses to skip the infrequent bible passage. Most pages have them copy a simple page about a bird or butterfly. I think several sources have them. Enjoy and save your money! Aloha, Kristin in Hawaii

...he is abusing you. Verbally and emotionally. He is being a jerk and is this the role model you want for your children? So sorry. I ended my marriage 3 years ago because I discovered my exhusband (of 10 years) was also addicted to online "stuff". I begged him for a date a month, counseling, etcetera and he got angry and said I was trying to change him. Bottom line... I left. When he got angry, acted a bit crazy I got a restraining order against him through a local family violence resource -- hardest thing I ever did. It worked. He calmed down and I immediately went before the judge with him and stated I felt we could now talk about things safely. But he needed to know I had the courage to actually take control of the situation. He was acting immature and scary and it had to stop. I also contacted his parents and asked for their help in keeping him calm. My life is so much better now -- and so is his. His current (2 yrs) girlfriend can't get high-speed internet access ;) and they are doing fine. He restarted his athletic activities which seem to satisfy his craving for the "rush". Our son spends much time with me and stays with his dad at least a day or two each week. His dad and I are working this through, for years now, with no yelling and meanness. The first year was hard. I am in a relationship with a caring, compassionate, intellingent man who told me that once he had started one of those games... found himself playing way too much and actually quit it completely -- said he had many better things to do with his time... like... to have a life. Get couseling for yourself. Protect yourself and the kids. Keep a positive goal in mind -- even if it means without him. And I wish you all the best with this difficult time. Kristin in Hawaii (Long ago forum member back when I was trying to figure out this thing called homeschooling ;) Homeschooling 1 dear boy -- 12 yrs old and in 7th grade