It seems like foreign language study is discouraging for many--and I can understand that. Math was almost like a foreign language to me. :) If it's affordable, however, I think there is benefit from at least exposing kids to a foreign language when they are younger. I'm sure you've read or heard of the benefits of early 2nd language acquisition. You never know if you'll spark an interest there. However, I'm still a big advocate of teaching and learning foreign languages. I don't know the ages of the OPs children. I guess I would advise that if it is truly cost-prohibitive, then wait until high school for the study of another language. Just be aware that for many colleges and universities, foreign language study is required at the high school level, and this requirement (i.e., 2 years or even 4 years) varies from one institution to the next.

Ideally, a native speaker or someone who knows the language well is best. For some, that may be cost-prohibitive (i.e., in terms of hiring a tutor). But yes, if necessary, consider outsourcing. First I would decide which language you want to teach, or which language your dc want to learn. It is possible to learn with your children, if necessary. Also, consider the possibility of online courses; there are a number of online courses available. For example, if your dc are interested in German, I've read excellent reviews about German Online through Oklahoma State University. The University of Missouri has numerous high school courses offered online--French, German, Spanish and Latin, for example. So yes, there are online courses available, and I would imagine other major universities offer online courses. I don't know how old your dc are, but if your community college has decent offerings in foreign languages, consider those as well. For Latin, I've also read some very good reviews about the Lukeion Project. Don't despair! There are options available for you! :)

I agree. There is undoubtedly a right time and place for group learning, but the push in my education classes is definitely towards group learning. Given the right time and situation, it can be a powerful tool. Given the wrong one, it can be a complete waste of time.

First of all, Caroline, the teacher program in your state or district sounds wonderful. One of my complaints about some of my education courses is that they seem too theoretical, with very little practice; however, I'm not all the way through the program yet (I should finish next spring), so I can't speak to future courses. My understanding is that there is one semester of student teaching, but I'll check--perhaps at my school it's a full year. I'm also very glad to hear that there is some flexibility within the classroom. I love your statement that students will rise to the level of your expectations. That is encouraging--and with your doctorate and your experience, I can only imagine that you are an excellent teacher. When it comes to my current classes, my coursework is at two different schools which are very, very different in terms of standards--and that probably accounts for the ongoing frustrations I have with the one school and the relative success with the other school. Thankfully, this should be (I hope) my last semester at the former. By next fall, I believe all my coursework will be at the other school. It's quite a drive for me, but perhaps well worth the trouble. Your explanation wasn't overly long at all; it was excellent and very encouraging. Thank you. :)

That seems to be the experience with a couple of my fellow students, who are doing their student teaching. One is getting certified to teach a foreign language, and frequently finds that he has to teach the English grammar before teaching the language. This is at a highly-ranked private school. Another student teacher finds that her students have little comprehension for Shakespeare, even when the text is read in class.

Specifically, I'm wondering how much freedom teachers have in the classroom to design their own lesson plans. I'm aware that public school teachers and private school teachers are required to teach the specified curriculum. I'm also aware that public school teachers are very compelled to teach to state standards, and that these standards may influence some private schools as well. The reason why I'm asking this is that this has been a particularly discouraging week for me in my own coursework. For instance, having students organize into groups for group work seems to be a trend in education. Based on my own experience, I'm not convinced that students always learn best doing group work. Because of the natural inclinations and motivations of different students, some will work hard and some will not. Currently I'm involved in two group projects. Thankfully, in one of those classes my fellow student is working hard on his end of the project. But, that is not the case with the other class, in which I've done most of the work. Also, in another class, some student teachers have developed unusual methods with which to reach their students. Although these methods might be necessary to motivate some students in some classrooms, I would have to have to use those methods. Basically, I'm interested in teaching because I'm interested in classical education. However, I live in an area where it is highly unlikely that a classical school will ever develop. So----I sometimes wonder if I'm on the right track. :confused: Any input from those who have had experience teaching in a classroom would be welcome! Thank you. :)

Again, no one is excusing his latter writings. In fact, I stated quite clearly that Luther is certainly accountable before God for his vituperative writings. Read my previous post. The difficulty in these discussions comes when broad generalizations are made which minimize or count to no effect any good which an individual might have written, said, or done. The vast majority of Lutherans believe that Luther made some valid points and follow those teachings. So, when broad generalizations come, such as "Martin Luther was a bad man"--without any distinctions or shades of meaning or deeper understanding into the totality of Luther's writings or his effect on the Protestant Reformation--yes, then I feel that the Church as a whole is attacked. I've read other broad generalizations on these forums before--not necessarily by you, but in general--against the Catholic Church, against the Apostle Paul or other Christian writers and people in history who considered themselves to be Christians. To me, one of the main goals of a classical education is to read different perspectives on history and the individuals who make up history and get a broader and multi-faceted perspective. The more history and biographies which I read, the more convinced I am that many famous people throughout history were deeply flawed individuals as well, but that doesn't negate any and all good things which they said, wrote, or accomplished.

Yes, Bill, I'm quite aware of that fact. I don't think anyone on this forum has so far denied that Luther's anti-Semitic writings, towards the end of his life, were reprehensible. No one said Luther was "simple-minded," either. Rather, it's fairly well-documented that he suffered from a number of physical ailments, one of which could be dementia. Does that make him any less responsible before God for his latter writings? No, no one is making that claim. What I am stating--and what others have tried to state--is that committed Lutheran Christians of Hitler's day, and still today, were not always aware of all of Luther's writings. That does not make them anti-Semitic or willing to embrace or condone those latter rantings of Luther. In fact, if I may quote from the Bonhoeffer biography by Eric Metaxas: "Years later, Eberhard Bethge (who was Bonhoeffer's best friend and first biographer) said that most people [emphasis mine], including him and Bonhoeffer, were unaware of the anti-Semitic ravings of Luther. It was only when the arch-anti-Semite propagandist Julius Streicher [a Nazi] began to publish and publicize them that they became generally known. It must have been shocking and confusing for devout Lutherans like Bonhoeffer to learn of these writings. But because he was so intimately familiar with all else Luther had written, he most likely dismissed the anti-Semitic writings as the ravings of a madman, unmoored from his own past beliefs." (Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy, p. 94) I wrote my honors thesis in college on the Kirchenkampf and Jewish and Christian resistance to the Nazi regime. The Lutheran Church in Germany split and was divided into two camps: the nominal Lutherans who allowed themselves to be submitted to the German Lutheran Church (the so-called "Deutsche Christen") and the Confessing Church, also known as the "Bekennende Kirche." In his excellent biography of Bonhoeffer, which I highly recommend that you read to get a clearer picture of this struggle, Eric Metaxas gives a very good history of the Kirchenkampf. Basically, the Confessing Church considered themselves to be the true Christians and made that quite clear in the Barmen Declaration. The Bekennende Kirche stated clearly that it was not separating itself from the Deutsche Christen; rather, the members of the Bekennende Kirche considered the Deutsche Christen to be an apostate church, no longer connected to Christ or His teachings, and that it was the Deutche Christen who had separated themselves from the true Church. Did Luther write Von den Juden und Ihren Lügen? Yes. Did this have an influence on German and European anti-Semitism? Yes. But you are overstating your case, because in fact anti-Semitism was already quite entrenched. The fact that Luther's latter rantings became widely disseminated was largely due to the fact that Hitler and Streicher and other Nazis took these and widely disseminated them. These teachings of Luther's were not condoned by Lutherans of Hitler's time, or today. And, as I quoted in length up above, Eberhard Bethge and Dietrich Bonhoeffer and other members of the Confessing Church were not at all influenced by Martin Luther's tract and were largely unaware of them. They focused on what they believed to be true from Luther's teachings. For once, I wish when these discussions came up that the Church as a whole was not always slandered and dragged into the mud. I would also encourage everyone to read the biography of Bonhoeffer by Eric Metaxas.

I would have to agree with starrbuck12 below. Anti-Semitism was deeply ingrained in European culture for centuries, and I'm fairly certain that Hitler would have accomplished his goals without the assistance of any particular church. He stated it all quite clearly in Mein Kampf. :iagree: There's just no way that Luther's flaws--which were numerous--could be compared to the engineered destruction of Hitler. I see him very much as a man of his time. In fact, Luther could be quite crude at times, and some of his polemics against the Catholic Church, and (as has already been mentioned in this thread) against the Jews and Anabaptists are painful to read. I think the biography of Luther by Roland Bainton is very good, because not only is it well-researched, but the author (Lutheran) is unafraid to address some of Luther's more egregious flaws. I can see that a modern Lutheran of today might not be that familiar with his later writings. In fact, I have been a Christian for years now, but still have vast areas of Church history and authors (both ante-Nicene and post-Nicene) which I have not read or studied. I don't believe that is a studied ignorance on the part of some Lutherans today. Like most Christians, I'm certain that many Lutherans are familiar with Luther's main teachings, to which they adhere, and are not fully aware of everything he wrote. He wrote quite a number of tracts--against the Jews, against the Peasant revolt, against the Anabaptists, etc. In the link which I posted earlier, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, for example, has distanced itself from these writings, i.e., his tracts against the Jews and Anabaptists.

No one is making that claim; I'm certainly not, nor should anything in my post be construed to imply that I believe that Luther or anyone else "brought down" the Catholic church. I have a number of very good friends who are Catholic---on this forum---and I have the deepest respect for them and their faith. That was never called into question. This is really a side issue, and not the main point of the original poster.

I think I know Kate well enough, through her posts and the gentle tone therein, to believe that this statement is not meant as "fightin' words" but as trying not to provoke another debate between Protestants and Catholics. Besides, such a debate would tend to divert from the point of the OP, which was regarding her discovery of Martin Luther's anti-Semitic tract, written towards the latter end of his life.

First of all, I was raised Lutheran, and I don't believe Lutherans today think that Martin Luther brought down the Catholic Church. :) Obviously, the Lutheran church defends the Protestant Reformation, but the entire Reformation is not made entirely invalid on the basis of Martin Luther's obvious problems towards the end of his life. This is not an issue which has been swept under the rug by the Lutheran church. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod has written about this here and in other places. I have read Roland Bainton's biography about Luther several times, and Bainton (who is a Lutheran historian) is extremely honest about Luther's faults, especially towards the latter end of his life. The excellent Bonhoeffer biography by Eric Metaxas (which I've read) also raises Luther's health issues and possible dementia. It is not sound logic to summarily dismiss all of Martin Luther's theology on the basis of irrational statements which he made towards the end of his life.

I have not done this, but perhaps someone has. Personally, I think it would be very difficult to do both levels at once. Have you thought about the VP online courses? They offer Omnibus. If this is an option for you, then I would go this route rather than try to do more than one at a time. I don't know what their prices are, but it would be worth some research. Here's a link to the main page [/url ]for their online coursework. HTH!

I've seen the same thing as well, and I also believe NCLB was well-intentioned but a disaster in execution. However, I graduated in the late 1970s, and I don't think standards were that high then, either; they have been slipping for years. Nevertheless, when I was in high school, I remember our grading system went like this: A = 94-100 B = 87-93 C = 86-80 and so on. That is pretty bad. I don't know what a "failing" score on the SAT would be. I have seen what I consider to be mediocre performance amongst some fellow homeschoolers (while we were still homeschooling), but I know that colleges look at far more than grades for entrance. In our experience, scores on the SAT and ACT weighed in quite heavily, not only for entrance to the school but also for scholarship money. The parents whom I know on this forum, for example, are very well aware of this fact and work very hard to substantiate any grades which they issue on their child's transcript. If a child has all As but receives a low score on the ACT or SAT, they will most likely not be admitted into certain schools. Overall, though, I agree that standards at our local p.s. are not what I would wish them to be. Certain classes are excellent; for example, the history teacher at our local p.s. is great: enthusiastic, maintains high standards, etc. The work in some other classes is minimal, in my opinion.

You might ask yourself first--what are my goals in this area? What are my children interested in at this point in time? If they are young, their goals could change. I like the suggestion of asking each teacher to give a trial lesson of perhaps 30 minutes each. I think having a good rapport with the children is essential. However, I personally also like a teacher who can teach music theory; if you can teach the history, then that might be a bit of an "overlap" in instruction with the second teacher. I also think learning some scales is important, as you will find scales repeated in a number of different pieces, plus there are certain repetitions, i.e., an Alberti bass, and a familiarity with scales and repetitions is helpful if you or your children are interested in classical music at all. My goals or list may not be the same as yours, but this is what I would look at (not in any particular order, either): 1.) Rapport with children 2.) Musical knowledge 3.) Cost of lessons (this may be a factor for some, but I'm of the opinion that if you have two instructors, one of whom is clearly better than the other but charges more, then I would choose the better teacher.) 4.) Music theory instruction, either through a separate theory book or incorporated into the lesson 5.) Classical instruction (this was important for me) 6.) Recital pieces should be memorized This is off the top of my head and reflects my own biases. Overall, I think an interview and a sample lesson would be an excellent idea and might help you match up your own goals with the right teacher.

Happy Birthday, Mrs. Wise! You have been a trailblazer in the classical Christian homeschooling movement! The way you homeschooled your children has been an inspiration to literally thousands of us. God bless you with many more years of good health, joy and peace! (From one December birthday to another; what a great time of year to celebrate! :) )

I'm so sorry about this, Robin. My mom also passed away on Thanksgiving; it's been many years ago, but I do remember it was a very difficult time for our family. God bless, and I hope you receive much comfort in the upcoming days and weeks. :grouphug:

:iagree: Couldn't agree more. I would move on and find a different teacher.

I won't address the first issue which you raised; it's far too complex. The current system with TSA is not a very good model, and it's constitutionality is questionable. Regarding your latter statement, I am always reluctant to raise the spectre of Godwin's law.

This sounds like a good alternative, asta. Thanks for posting this. :)

I'm from Minnesota, and it's definitely not an accent from there. People from North Dakota and Wisconsin have a fairly similar to Minnesotans. I voted Canada.

Jean, you will be in my prayers as well. :grouphug:

Same experience here. My girls are grown now, but yes, they nursed closer to every 2-3 hours. I made certain that I kept them as awake as possible while nursing, which admittedly is very difficult for a newborn. Nursing usually took mine about 30 minutes. As they got older, they grew more efficient and were able to nurse rather quickly. My guess would be that if the baby is only nursing for about 10 minutes at a time, you might try other methods to help keep the baby awake. For example, I would sometimes rub their feet gently with a cool washcloth, which would help keep them awake. I always nursed on both sides as well.

:iagree::iagree::iagree: This is wisdom as well.

I don't know if I can answer all of your questions, but yes---I would say that following writing via TWTM greatly assisted my girls. First of all, we homeschooled for seven years; my oldest is in college, and my middle daughter is now a junior in high school, and the youngest is in 8th grade. We started homeschooling when the oldest was in 4th grade and the middle daughter was in 2nd grade. This is what we did: In the first year of homeschooling, we alternated days of having them take dictation (from me) and doing copywork, which also counted as penmanship. That may have been a little slow for the 4th grader, in terms of what she was capable. The next year we did more dictation and simple narrations. We read a selection from a book, or read the selections from the Kingfisher History Encyclopedia or the science books we used, and had them take dictation or do simple narrations---in other words, simply summarizing what they had learned. I think in 6th grade (thus 4th grade for the middle girl) we did more narrations and started to do outlining. We'd read a passage in Kingfisher together, and on the whiteboard we'd come up with the main points in the section. I also started doing Classical Writing-Aesop the year before. We also worked our way through CW-Homer and some of CW-Poetry. I admit that I got a little lost in CW-Diogenes, which we started more around 8th grade. Basically, I had them do shorter essays. For grammar, we used Abeka grammar. I really disliked the writing assignments for Abeka--especially the creative writing assignments. I did have them do some of the report writing for Abeka. Abeka teaches a good process for report writing, IMO, but introduces thesis writing too early, I believe--around 7th grade. For my girls, this was too young to understand how to write a thesis, plus the Abeka writing process simply did not give enough time for reading and thinking and "digesting" the material which has been read. Students simply don't always know enough right away what they think, so the material needs to be read, discussed, evaluated, and thought about for a while before they can begin to formulate a thesis statement. The process was somewhat clumsy, but we somehow stumbled through it. By the time they were in 9th and 7th grades (I had the youngest following the same process the older two did when they were her age), I enrolled them in Cindy Marsch's progymnasmata writing tutorials. We did several of these, plus I had Cindy evaluate their writing for shorter essays which we did for Omnibus II. Also, for the final two summers that we homeschooled, the girls did a lot of writing on their own. They would write stories and evaluate other works. They read a lot about writing---a variety of sources. By the time we enrolled them in school, which was when the oldest was in 11th grade and the middle daughter was in 9th grade, I would say (hopefully not too pridefully) that they were some of the best writers in their class. When the oldest started college, she placed out of College Comp. I and II and directly into a literature class. My middle daughter is also a very strong writer and is taking College Comp. I now as a junior. Yes, I would say that TWTM suggestions for writing are excellent. I think schools push creative writing and report writing too young. For our family, the slower process of copywork, dictation, and narrations worked well for those early years.