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msjones

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  1. Well, my little one perked himself right up when I let him know he would not be joining the neighbors at the park if he didn't change his attitude. So, thanks for this suggestion. I also took a look at your site -- love the title! So far, I've been adding more work if the first assignment/lesson/activity is done with crying/moping/moaning. That has sort of worked, but we've been finishing up school each day sooooo late. Anybody else with some suggestions? Or all the the homeschooled kids out there weeping over their work?:) :bigear: msjones
  2. I'm interested in others' approaches to their children crying and complaining about schoolwork. They are entirely capable of doing the work. The crying is because they just don't wanna. I would like to nip this new phenomena (at least, it's new in my house) in the bud. What have you done in response to this behavior? What has worked? What has made it worse? The boys are 7 and just turned 9 -- 2nd and 3rd graders with no significant academic struggles. We've homeschooled 4 years already and only just started with this crying business. Any suggestions will be appreciated and considered.
  3. This video actually originated in my district (I'm up here in Seattle). The school from which it originated currently has a waiver from EM and is using Saxon. That is all the result of parent effort. I think they're pretty happy with Saxon. For the record, at the school where I tutor, the teachers are indeed teaching the long division algorithm. They teach 2 methods -- the one we remember and one called 'partial quotients' which I believe is referred to in the video. I have not seen the use of calculators for long division although I know the EM teacher's guide does indeed promote their use for long division. I have yet to meet a teacher who would actually skip the teaching of long division. Most of the teachers I know share the same concerns being discussed in this thread. I don't blame you for being angry. Everyday Math is controversial -- a huge departure from the 'norm' in elementary math education. Believe me when I say there are teachers with the same concerns. If you combine EM with a crummy teacher it, in my opinion, is a recipe for disaster. It sounds as if that is what happened with your son. I'm amazed that a teacher would require extensive use of the 'lattice method' for multiplication. At my school, it is presented as something of a novelty, not as THE method for multiplication. The partial products method is taught for 'regular use,' and the kids seem to do okay with it. It's just sooooo long and gets messy. So, I teach my students the traditional algorithm and hopefully they can use both/either. Well, we'll see. I'll let you know!:) When I've demonstrated the methods for individual parents I haven't had that response. They still seem unhappy and concerned, but at least see that there is some sense to the method and also feel able to work with their student. This makes me cringe. I wonder if we'll have a California-whole-language-type disaster on our hands in a few years. I'm a part-time tutor hired by the PTA at this point. I taught in the district for years, but am currently homeschooling my kids and just working this part-time position. So I am very much on the sidelines in terms of what's happening with math. I take the kids referred to me and do what I can for them. This is a great question. And I don't know the answer. I've never even heard it discussed. In our state these decisions are made at a district level. So the math curricula for any district have to be approved by the school board. The state isn't involved. And in my district some parents and teachers have managed to be heard. At least one school is using Saxon. (As I said earlier, it's the school from which that video originated.) I really believe that both types of programs have value and I'd like to see school districts offer parents a choice. We could probably go around and around about this all weekend, and not agree. As someone wrote earlier, all kids approach math differently. There are students doing well with EM. Ideally, families would be able to choose. Does anyone know of a district where that is the case? We may not be on opposite sides. ;) I'm still sort of in the middle, but mostly seeing that the success of EM depends on the student's learning style and the skill of the teacher. I enjoy my job very much because I get to 'jump right in' to the heart of this problem and do something practical about it for individual kids.
  4. (I'm new to the boards and dont know how to do those quotes, so bear with me! I'll try to make this legible as I quote Mallorie's very interesting post.) "MsJones, I'm going to pick on you a bit." Well, I don't mind. :) "I would have to wonder how many kids fit this profile?" This is a good question, and I've wondered this myself. I sometimes help my students in their classrooms (instead of pulling them out) and I can see most of the class doing well enough with that days' assignment. That isn't the same as a real evaluation, obviously. " I WHOLEHEARTEDLY disagree (and I'll wrap this point up in a minute) that a deeper understanding of math is the end result. For us, it resulted in a vague understanding of a broader scope. Kind of like "Jack of all trades, master of none" result. Also, while i'll agree that parents don't like the program, that is not what makes homework stressful. It's the fact that parents don't UNDERSTAND the program, because hardly any of us learned it this way, so we can't help them if we wanted to. " What I have observed is that some students can explain to me why the traditional algorithms work. They can even understand why long division works. (I can now, too, which is new for me!) The old program I taught with (Addison-Wesley) did not teach that at all. I also observe, however, the 'inch deep and a mile wide' problem that you refer to. EM seems to promote it with their various methods, lack of practice, and spiraling schedule. Many kids have mastered none of what is presented. And if my child was one of those students, I'd pull him out, too. "My kids were taught their facts very well with EM. It just didn't progress farther than that. The bolded part is one of the reasons my son lost progress with EM, it added so many steps to basic math that if they didn't keep very good track of their "path", they were going to screw it up and get it wrong anyway." I'd be interested in how your son mastered multiplication using EM. Did his teacher supplement? Or did you supplement? I just do NOT see this happening at my school. And I agree that all those steps can be a big mess. Some kids just don't work that way, and it's hard to watch them struggle through the multi-step methods when I could just teach a simpler one. So, I do! That's why I like my job. As far as parents not understanding the methods....I'm proposing a meeting at which I'll teach the EM algorithms to the parents. (I was surprised the school didn't offer this last year when they started with EM.) I realize this won't solve all the problems with EM, but I believe it could prevent some of them. Regarding your concern about lack of understanding...I think the EM idea is that strategies are to be taught. I think the strategies are mostly sound, but I don't believe there is enough opportunity for strategy practice. They learn the strategy one day and the next day they're on to something entirely new. UGH! That's what frustrates me the most. " I am in total disagreement with changing the norm to suit a handful of students." I think the district response to this (which would probably turn your stomach) would be that they are trying to change the students' way of thinking about math. Schools that adopt this program are choosing it in order to teach a new kind of math. Naturally, the problems begin when the parents aren't looking for that type of math education for their child. I would like to see school districts allow parents to choose. I don't know why this hasn't happened, but my guess is that money is part of the problem. (I'm sure it would cost more to have 2 sets of training, books, materials, etc.) As far as parents feeling "blown off" regarding their concerns...that is a shame. With a program as non-traditional as EM, I think schools need to have a family support plan in place -- they should expect a lot of questions and concerns and be glad to address them. Thanks for putting up with my sloppy post. (Can anyone link me to some directions for doing the quotes correctly?) msjones
  5. I'm a part-time math teacher at a school which uses Everyday Math. I work only with struggling students, so my view is skewed. My observations: Let's begin with something positive! Some kids do very well with this program. They enjoy it and their parents do, too. They are able to solve problems using a variety of strategies, explain the strategies, and apply the strategies in new situations. Wow! That's saying something, wouldn't you agree? Much deeper understanding than we achieved with the old program. Lots of kids are doing 'so-so.' They're a bit baffled some of the time, but they 'get it' some of the time, too. They have a deeper understanding of some of what they're doing (compared to what they were learning in the more traditional program). But,(compared to the old program) most kids aren't as confident working through problems because there isn't a lot of practice. Their parents don't like the program, so the homework time can be stressful for everyone. Also, they really aren't taught the multiplication facts at school (ouch). They are taught HOW to figure them out, but drill is not part of this program. So, for example, they may not know 8 x 5. But, they'll probably know that it's the same as 5x5 plus 3x5 and be able to figure that out. (Most kids I worked with wouldn't have known that with the old program.) There is some real value in understanding that. But, it can be painful to watch a 3rd grader plow through that 'figuring out' process. Finally, the kids who are failing seem to fail badly. They don't even have step-by-step algorithms to fall back on. With the old program, some kids would be far, far from understanding subtraction with trading, but they could still do it; we just persistently 'crammed' the steps into their heads. Now, the focus is on understanding and the steps are secondary, so they are quite desperately behind. Their parents are unfamiliar with what it being taught, so they feel angry and helpless. Who wouldn't? My opinion is that schools who choose this program need to train the teachers thoroughly. They absolutely need to inform parents about the methods their children will be taught. They need to allow kids to do it the 'old way' if they can also demonstrate understanding of the 'new way.' And, they'd better add some drill, or they're going to wish they had. I'm interested in others' experiences, since I'm working with this. I understand parents' concerns and want to be able to help their kids. This isn't the program I would have chosen, but it's here to stay (for a while, at least) at my school, so I'm trying to make the best of it and intervene in helpful ways. I'll be checking back on this thread!
  6. Its funny how different everyone is... I rarely used the SL questions, preferring to use my own. That way I can adjust them for everyone involved. I tried Hearts and Hands (the Greek and Roman kit? it was quite a while ago) and found it disappointing and expensive. By the way, jonesloonybin, I went to the Winter Promise forums and did a search for SL and WP comparisons and found plenty. Maybe you should try that. I liked what I read and went ahead and ordered this morning. I took the plunge and I'm looking forward to a change. (Now I just hope I won't have to start one of those Winter-Promise-lousy-service threads!)
  7. My boys are 7 and newly 9. The older one was a perfect fit for the Sonlight history and read-alouds -- we've finished Cores K, 1, and 2 and really enjoyed them. My younger son, however, has a really different style. All that listening and discussing is really not his 'thing.' We're just finishing Core 1 with him. He doesn't complain, he participates, but doesn't look forward to it or get excited about it like my older son. I've seen the Winter Promise American Crossing set and I think they would both LOVE it. Both boys enjoy projects and crafty stuff, and I know the hands-on stuff would really help my younger son with retention. The books look great. So, I wonder if any of you have done both Sonlight and Winter Promise and what you think. Any drawbacks to WP? Anything you missed about SL? Or did you switch and never look back? Thanks for any input you may have! msjones
  8. I can TELL from your reply that you have a real, live 9yo boy in your home! You're right. About the work, the micro-managing, and the respect. I think the hardest part of this new disrespect is that it's modeled after my own personal style of disrespect. I am sorry to admit that I make sarcastic remarks under my breath. I roll my eyes. I even do the 'huffy' breaths. And now it's all coming back to haunt me! And I'd feel a bit less haunted if he went to school for 6 hours each day? I think that's my little dream... And you've all popped it with your thoughtful, sensible replies. Thank you, all, for your time and encouragement tonight. I needed it. And this gave me a great opportunity to think about the issue when my sweet and snarky 9yo is sleeping instead of in the heat of the conflict. gratefully, msjones
  9. You know, the only good part of this new behavior is that we have had some very rewarding conversations about it. And you're right about the 'boat rocking.' Along with the mumbling snarkiness has come these outrageous/dangerous 'stunts' at the playground -- designed especially for his mother. "Look mom, I'm on the roof of the climber/dugout/swings!" "Look, mom, I can jump my skateboard off of the picnic table/slide/wall!" This kid used to be afraid of his own shadow. So, despite my attempts to appear calm, I'm a bit stunned, and he seems to be really enjoying that. Thanks for your thoughtful and encouraging reply.
  10. These are some good questions... I was thinking about all this today and realize that almost all our curriculum involves direct instruction from me (we do Bravewriter, Sonlight history and read-alouds, RightStart math, and I even teach his piano.) That's a lot of me, and just about no independent work other than chores, math facts practice, and his independent reading. A good friend was suggesting replacing the Bravewriter LA (which is going really well) with a more workbook-y LA like Winter Promise. Something where he'd just do the work on his list and then give it to me to check. We don't do that kind of stuff much. I really enjoy teaching him, so I guess I've chosen programs that require a lot of interaction. Thanks for your reply. msjones
  11. Oh, he knows he's crossing boundaries. We've always emphasized that attitudes/hearts come before schoolwork and they know we'll stop everything to address those issues. That's what I've been doing, and I'm just tired of it. I'd like some quick and easy results, frankly! (Where does one sign up for those quick-and-easy results?)
  12. This is such a helpful reply -- especially the chore list. It has a few that we don't have on our list. I agree with the 'more work' suggestion. We just upped the chore expectations again ( I try to each september) and I like the result so far. He has much more responsible chores now and seems to feel the 'weight' of them. You said to not "let a little attitude stop" me from homeschooling. I think what I fear is what I see in some other families -- moms and kids spending a large chunk of each day battling over school. It just seems SO contentious and miserable. We're nowhere near a battle at this point. Like I said, it's still fairly mild. But it's a big change, and I'd like to take care of it before it becomes something uglier. Thanks again for your suggestions.
  13. Thank you for your kind and encouraging reply. I haven't given him much input regarding our curriculum. That would certainly be less drastic than enrolling him at school and it's worth considering. He's enthusiastic about a lot of different things...maybe I'll hand him some catalogs and let him circle things that look interesting and see what I think. And you're right -- he is definitely testing me. He has done very little of this up to now. We were 'two peas in a pod' until quite recently, which is part of why this is a bit heartbreaking. I knew it would come, and now that it's here (sigh...), I just want it over. (By the way, Molly Weasly is my favorite Harry Potter character, so I really enjoyed seeing your signature line!)
  14. This is a great question... Mostly, I'd like for him to have to 'toe the line' for someone other than Mom. The school is fairly rigorous (for a ps) and the kids work there. I taught ps elementary for 7 years, so I realize it isn't all fantastic up at the school, but it would require him to pull himself together on his own each day.
  15. I appreciate just seeing this on the screen (the part about the next ten years). I know this is true and it's why I've been stopping him every time. I just feel like I've had it. I sometimes hear the saying, "you can pay me now, or you can pay me later..." referring to kids' behavior. Well, I'm paying now. This sweet child gave me almost no trouble as a toddler and preschooler -- I can count on one hand the number of tantrums he had. He seems to have saved it up.
  16. I have two boys, one 7 and one about to turn 9. We've been homeschooling for 4 years and I've enjoyed it very much. However, the 9yo seems to be wanting some independence. I know this is normal for his age, but it sure is manifesting itself in some unpleasant ways: arguing, glaring, sassing, debating, complaining about school. Now, all of this is quite subtle. Most of my friends and family wouldn't notice this behavior -- he's a quiet, passive-aggressive type. He'd never holler at me; he mumbles his complaints, arguments, and sassy remarks. Charming. So, my question is, might school be a better place for him? (We have a sought-after ps behind our house.) If a child is truly longing for some independence, might it be best to grant that? Have any of you placed your children in school for this reason? How did it go? I'm interested in others' experiences. (fwiw -- he attends outside classes 5 hours/week and we participate in a field trip group and lots of church events, and have plenty of neighborhood friends...) :bigear: msjones
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