So am I right in assuming you've never coached a rec sports team? Exactly. Right on. Unlike Tara, who started this thread, I'm competitive. I love ~ no, I mean LOVE ~ sports. But we long ago made a decision not to take part in travel teams. We stay low-key with rec sports, and our guys also play on middle school & high school teams. Travel teams around here wouldn't even allow for the kind of behavior Tara is referencing. It's taken seriously enough such that opting out of practices & games as a means of "punishment" would result in having a player removed to make room for someone else. But I have many years of involvement with rec & school sports, and imo the commitment is still the same. Obviously, a family isn't going to forego saying good-bye to a dying grandparent in order to make a game. No brainer there. But in rec sports, people who step up to coach are doing so voluntarily. In high school, coaches may be paid but they're still working to make the players and team the best they can be. It isn't just about sports. It's a life lesson. Other people ~ coaches, teammates, supporters ~ are investing in you, and to act as if you can take it or leave it at your own discretion is both unfortunate and inconsiderate.

There are good reasons I never wanted a girl, not the least of which is the fact that I was that smug. I think you mixed up the beverage dosages...

Haha! That's exactly what I was going to say. Depends on the beanie itself more than anything. Pretty sure we should compile these replies and write an in-depth report on the subject, too. ;-)

And furthermore, it shows inconsideration toward the coach.

Right. Because "ups and downs" ~ typical or otherwise ~ include ups. If you don't understand my meaning, then that's confirmation of my point. ;-)

Yes, agreed. You misinterpreted my use of the word "typical" due to my own lack of clarity. I am saying that it's typical to have ups and downs. I can't imagine anyone entering into marriage ~ or going through anything in life, really ~ without that expectation.

Not sure what you mean by "differences in how couples deal with their challenges" ~ and not sure I should ask...

Last night, I lamented having opened this thread ~ so of course today I came back to pick at the scab. ;-) This post does offer some consolation. I don't expect anyone to sing the praises of divorce, but it's worth bearing in mind that some people do experience a better, albeit it different & challenging in its own respects, life after a dissolution. So I can at least hope for that. Same. Of course. But if your marriage has primarily been one never-ending rough spot, comments like these are pretty frustrating. People who have the typical ups & downs are understandably trying to relate but really, they just can't. Really? Many divorces don't involve abuse or infidelity. *GRIN* I'm not a pet person but looking down the road, I can see where it might be a comfort.

Oh, heck. Why did I open this thread? This was NOT the bedtime reading I needed given that I'm starting down the road of a divorce ~ against my wishes. Is a loveless marriage reason enough to end it? No, I don't think so. But if the other person doesn't agree, tough luck. I wrote more but will do the smart thing and edit even before posting. ;-)

Exactly. What happened in this thread is that the title was misleading. Not uncommon. But after just a few people read the title, skimmed the first post, and replied, the conversation headed in another direction based on our understanding of the issue. In this case, most of us were discussing how to deal with (or not) older teens trick-or-treating ~ which is exactly how the conversation is framed in the title. After a while, it became clear that the original poster wasn't actually asking about older teens trick-or-treating ~ presumably the issue would be the same if the party involved her younger children. Rather, she wondered what to say to the host. The answer to that, as Tara noted, is quite simple. One need never provide a reason for declining an invitation, especially in cases like this. I'm sorry the original poster feels insulted. This is a good opportunity for her (and all of us) to remember that how we frame a question or begin a conversation directly impacts the flow of that conversation. As well, if we're honest with ourselves about why we're posting, why we're asking a question in the first place, we might be in a better place to accept what people say in response. Here, many posters with varied opinions on other subjects are saying the same thing: It's concerning and unfair when a parent refuses, out of sheer stubbornness, to allow a 16 yo to engage in an innocuous activity with friends. When (most) everyone you're talking to is saying the same thing, it's worth getting past the defensiveness and genuinely listening.

I hear you. May I ask, though, why you don't take your own advice and "visualize the ignore feature"?

Yes, I've heard it on conservative homeschooling boards. And then, as now, I cringed at the thought that grown women and young adult women allow themselves to be micromanaged to this extent. I do apologize if that comes across as rude or mean. I don't intend it as such. The "head of household" mindset is all-too-often twisted into a means of subjugation and power-tripping. Imo if a man won't allow a 16 yo young woman to engage in a fun, harmless activity with a handful of friends, that's not an appropriate application of the "theology" to which he adheres. It's just a guy being a control freak.

Agreed. Very well & respectfully said. I, too, would encourage the original poster (and, more to the point, her husband) to back away from the micromanagement of seemingly innocuous issues like this. Consider it a stepping stone as she quickly approaches the time in life when she can and should make life decisions. Because, after all, a sleepover and trick-or-treating isn't a "life decision" ~ so if she doesn't have say in this at age 16….then what?

How exactly did you realize how things were? When and where do you witness parents doing drugs with their kids? Or offering them alcohol in order to get drunk? You must have pretty close relationships to these people to know they have money floating around and be so attuned to their parenting motivations and habits.

Those remarks don't resonate with me, either. Well said. Hmmm, okay. It's not my impression that a so-called "moral consensus" is more or less defined in any of those cultures/countries with which I'm familiar, but my experiences are limited to Europe, Canada, and the USA. I can imagine that may be the case in societies that are more differentiated from ours.

Same. And my guys never did (as far as I know) miss it. Of course, that's in large part because we don't live in town so they really never experienced the phenomenon. Also, trick-or-treating in particular and Halloween in general aren't embraced here as widely as it is in mainstream American culture. Something pretty funny did happen the one time my oldest son went trick-or-treating. He was 2 yo, my only child at the time. I didn't plan to do anything about Halloween, but a friend with a 2 yo daughter was taking her little girl trick-or-treating, just to a few relatives' homes. She asked if we wanted to go along so we did that. I assumed the experience would be rather disinteresting for my little guy. He didn't know about Halloween and never ate candy, either. First place we went was my friend's Grandma's house. As we headed there, the 2 yo girl chattered away, telling my boy all about trick-or-treating. She was super advanced when it came to talking, whereas my guy was a late talker, so it was funny listening to her chatter away. He said nothing ~ and I thought most of what she said went in one ear and out the other. Boy, was I wrong! Turned out Grandma wasn't expecting us and wasn't home. So the kids knocked and no answer. Rang the bell and no one home. The little girl said, "She isn't here. Let's go somewhere else" and turned to leave. Upon which my boy THROWS himself at the door, beating it with his fists and crying, "Candy! Candy! Give me candy!!!!" Needless to say, I was put in my place. ;-)

Yikes! Was it really such an issue that they had to formally address it? Our town is known for being rather meddlesome (there's an ordinance about grass length!), but even they haven't gone so far as this. They do, though, address the issue of trick-or-treating when Halloween falls on a Sunday. Church attendance (including evening church) is uncommonly high here, and most businesses are closed on Sunday. So when this comes up, the Chamber of Commerce has their downtown trick-or-treating on Saturday and the community is encouraged/reminded to do the same. Good point. I explained this to my younger guys when they went trick-or-treating for the first time last year. So true. Our society sends teens a mixed message even where prices are concerned. A kid as young as 13 is often expected to pay "adult" prices for movies and so on. Years ago, when I only had littles, I used to be a bit annoyed when young teens were at playgrounds and so on. Once I had children that age, I saw it in a much different light!

You're past that point. You don't need justification for foregoing the dinner. You extended a great deal of grace and opting not to go is by no means ungraceful. The reality is that you already had plans (work) and good grief, it's one meal. They'll be living in the area now and plenty of other opportunities to dine together will occur. No one need feel guilty or resentful about any of this.

How so? How does Germany (for example) have a more defined moral consensus than the U.S.? What does "moral consensus" even mean, I wonder? (Not trying to argue with you, btw; rather, thinking the term is convenient but rather gray matter.)

What a fun thread! It's nice to hear so many people say, in essence, "Let people enjoy what causes no harm. Nothing wrong with teens reveling in child-like fun, given how much heck goes on elsewhere in life." It's good for me to hear that perspective. Halloween is strange to me, always has been. I didn't care much one way or another about trick-or-treating when I was young. I went, to some extent, but it wasn't a big deal ~ perhaps in part because my mom isn't American and herself wasn't accustomed to the tradition. The same has been true for me as an adult, married to someone from another culture. I was always glad that we lived a few miles out of town, where no one trick or treats. I was able for 18 years to fly under the Halloween radar. Not because of any religious opposition, per se. Just because I didn't care about it and frankly found it odd for kids to go door-to-door getting more of the junk they already eat too much of. Yep, I'm a real downer that way. ;-) Last year during Halloween we were living up in town while our house was being remodeled. I was amazed at what a difference it made, as Halloween approached. My older guys, when they were little, were barely aware of Halloween. But last year, my younger two "saw" it everywhere and kept asking if they were going to go trick-or-treating. Well, let me tell you, I am the WORST when it comes to creativity. Couldn't bear the thought of helping them come up with costumes. But they threw together items from the dress-up box and ventured around the neighborhood. It was thrilling for them! Definitely cast a new light on something that strikes me as pretty odd. This year we're back at the farm (who knows where I'll be next year…), but I'm more than happy to take them up to town to T-or-T again. (And again, I'll leave it to them to figure out costumes!) As far as older kids and teens, in the past I would have been a naysayer. But as others here have said, what's the big deal? There's more than enough grief and hardship to go around, so who cares if a 16 yo wants to put on a mask, ring a doorbell, and get a Snickers bar in return? Having said that, I can't for the life of me imagine my teens doing it. I'd have to pay my 16 yo and his friends a very tidy sum of money to see them trick-or-treating. So while I don't care if older teens trick-or-treat, the fact that they'd want to does seem kinda weird to me.

So the purpose in reading his tweets is…what?

I don't know. In response to reading what are perceived to be troubling tweets, is anyone going to reach out to others? Some how I doubt it.

To clarify, this includes mass shootings that didn't take place at schools. (And on the other hand, doesn't include most gun-related tragedies that take place all around the world in any given year.)

Which state?

Absolutely. The gun culture is a feeling as much as it is anything else, and it's uniquely American. (All the more reason to embrace it. It's the American way: our right, our history, our identity!) Great exploration of gun culture, written by a Jewish liberal ~ and gun enthusiast, no less: Dan Baum's Gun Guys: A Road Trip. I'm a gun control advocate living among hoards of people who sport everything "I Love Guns & Coffee". Mother of a 16 yo son who, as I write, is traipsing about in the back forty, duck hunting. My days of ranting against the American gun culture are long past. It won't change. It's knitted within us. The best I can do is be open and respectful to those with whom I disagree and aim for middle ground. Baum's book is a step in that direction.