:grouphug:I'm so sorry you are all going through this. I hope you really can break the cycle, and soon. I think you are right that you have to start with your own behaviour before you can expect to see improvements in that of your 10 year old. Try to react to everything with calmness and love. And patience. Work hard on modeling the kind of behaviour you would like to see in your son.

The kind of non-coercive parenting you are describing (and in my view, quite rightly objecting to) is not what I practice. Maybe I shouldn't claim to be non-coercive if that's the kind of behaviour it brings to mind. I say I'm non-coercive because I don't use coercion to get my kids to do what I want them to, not because I'm signed up to any group or recognized philosophy. If we were out and I needed to use a restroom, I'd just say I need to go and I'd go. I can't even begin to imagine a situation where my child would object to that. I completely agree that children must be helped, guided, taught, and yes, corrected. Not only because of imperfection but also because of inexperience, lack of knowledge, lack of maturity etc. I've tried explaining it this way: I think my child should be allowed to do what he/she wants. It's my job to make sure that he/she wants to do what's right. Not by coercion, but by persuasion, reason, and having right on my side. (After making absolutely sure that right IS on my side, being open-minded enough to consider that it might not be.) I don't think Jesus was coercive. I may be missing something (I often am), or perhaps we are using different definitions of the word coercive but I think Jesus drew his followers after him by the persuasive (and right) power of his teaching. I don't think a parent has to coerce a child to persuade the child that the command to be obedient to parents is a direct command from God to the child. Not a command to the parent exact obedience, but to the child to give it. My children are not exceptional, they are just as imperfect as anyone else. They don't all have naturally compliant natures. But they do obey me and show respect for others and display good manners generally behave very nicely.

:lol: I'm a conservative Christian, non-coercive, Classically Educating, former unschooler. I just asked my children if they'd like to go back to unschooling and they all said "No." Don't get me wrong, if it's done right, as some here have described it, I'm sure it's wonderful and everything turns out fine. But it hasn't worked for us and my children are delighted to be following quite a rigorous educational schedule now, closely based on TWTM. I don't think non-coercive means non-parenting, or unparenting. I think it means a lot of hard work from the parent and a lot of close attention.

I think bamatanya's suggestions are good. We have had a "Pants Party" for the last three children and found that while there were lots of accidents on the day of the party they usually had caught on by the day later. We also timed the running out of diapers to coincide with the date of the party. And we had the whole extended family attend, bringing gifts of underpants so there were lots of changes available.

That was a very interesting response. I liked it a lot. Inspiring.

Yes, yes, we're the ones hard to understand.:lol: We think it's 'won't' both times by the way.

We are fully 'teched up': mobile phones, iPods, DS's, PS1, 2 and 3, Wii, Gamecube, PC, Mac, and, to be honest, I don't know what else. We don't set any limits on usage. At the moment, Guitar Hero is being played daily and is, I think, the biggest hit yet. But, when friends come over, they don't typically play the electronic games, since they all have them anyway. They usually go outside and play - into the woods, down to the river, running about the fields playing, often games inspired by movies or games or books they are all familiar with or sometimes games of their own making. I grew up without any tech whatsoever, even TV or radio, but I know that my 16 year old is more mature and more well-read than I was at that age. The tech stuff has added to their overall experience of life and, at least in my opinion, has taken nothing away.

We also place no limits on electronic entertainment. We didn't spend all that money to use all this stuff to control them! Chores get done, school gets done. Everyone is happy.

:iagree: Same here.

Magazines and stuff I want to get around to reading but keep putting off, I pop into a drawer in the bathroom. That way I do get around to it. Also, other people will read them too. I keep all my New Scientist magazines in there and toss in a couple of gardening ones too. They will get well read.;)

:grouphug:PM'd you.

When I first explained about drugs to my boys, the youngest said, with the most serious face and voice, "If anyone ever tries to give me drugs I will just go to Auntie Karen's house and ask for a fried-egg sandwich." Her fried-egg sandwiches are very good.:001_smile:

Don't know if you can get them there, but we have a Volkswagon Caravelle. 8 full size seats and a 9th smaller one.

I think problems arise over the word 'sin'. I believe it means a falling short of perfection. I think we can all agree that we are all born imperfect. In that sense we are born 'sinful'. But that doesn't mean the same as not being innately good. None of my children have ever committed a sin. Not by my definition of the word, and I believe not by the Bible's either. They are imperfect and need the ransom as do we all, but not because they have sinned. I try very hard to avoid giving my children the feeling that they are 'bad'. I grew up with that feeling and I know what a negative impact it can have. I teach them that they are good, that they are created and loved by God. I teach them that they are imperfect and make mistakes and that it is appropriate to apologize for their mistakes. I think that scripturally there may be two definition of the word sin, one meaning the general 'falling short of the glory of God' and the other meaning serious wrongdoing, such as theft, murder, rape, etc. We are all born with imperfection, so falling short of the glory of God is inevitable but I don't believe we are born with a natural tendency to commit serious sins.

I see many are saying that humans are not innately good. I wonder about this sometimes. The Bible says we are created in God's image. God said about His creation that 'it was good'. In fact, at creation, humans were perfect. Now, I know that we have inherited imperfection and sin, since the original sin, but I'm not sure if that makes us innately bad. Perhaps just innately imperfect?

I buy 'extras' often - weekly or more. But not toys, no, no, no more toys! Toys were making us all stressed because of the impossibility of keeping them tidy. So we all agreed to get rid of most of the toys (to the attic, they haven't been thrown out all together but I think everyone but me has forgotten about them.) DVD's, books, Wii games, Playstation games, art supplies, board games, socks..... :) Recently we have been trying hard to economize and we are all happily doing with far fewer extras but a set of pens or a colouring book here and there are always well received.

I don't think you need to impose consequences upon him other than the unavoidable consequence that you will find it hard to know whether you can believe him. You could tell him that people don't respect liars. You could mention that just because something doesn't seem important enough (to him) to tell the truth about, others (including you) won't see it like that and will be very upset about being lied to.

Just a thought, from my own experiences: I think part of the reason I don't get this kind of defiance from my kids is that they trust that when I do insist upon something (which is very rare) that it is something really important which actually matters. I remember reading once that the most obedient children are those that are not asked to be obedient too often. Regarding the example given, I wouldn't have asked dd to take off her ballet shoes. If she wanted to wear them inside her boots I'd have maybe mentioned one or two problems that might arise from that choice (if I happened to think there were any worth mentioning) but I'd have been happy to go ahead and let her wear them if she wanted to. I can imagine it must be very frustrating for children to have their lives micro-managed and that frustration could lead to defiance.

I'd be fine about the responsible 10 year old, but not with an irresponsible 7 year old.

I believe that God exists, that the Bible is true, and also that the Bible doesn't teach literal hellfire. I believe the words translated 'hell' mean grave or death or eternal oblivion, not a place of eternal torture. I don't believe the loving, merciful God described in the Bible would treat his creation in that way. The wages sin pays is death, no more, no less.