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"For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation." - Mary, the mother of Jesus (in Luke 1:49-50)
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Add all that up. No one needed to tell her to feel ashamed. She did. She felt the need to end her life! Why is it that so much focus is on her decisions leading up to the event. They made the same decisions leading up to 'the event'. The boys went the 20 steps past that. The boys performed the illegal acts. The boys were shameless in their flaunting, they were actually proud of their decisions! Yet there is discussion that she should feel ashamed? Perhaps you did not mean to make that seem like the focus of your post. There should be no talk whatsoever of her needing to feel ashamed--she got that--the boys did not.
I don't disagree with you at all.
My point was that the girl is not free of her own personal responsibility in the situation. Not ALL of the blame for the horrible situation lies with the boys.
I'm not sticking up for the boys at ALL. And yes, they were MORE wrong than she was. But she was still wrong.
Look, if I went walking around downtown Detroit with a big wad of cash hanging out of my back pocket on purpose because I wanted everyone to see how much money I had, and then someone robbed me, I think it would be disingenuous of me to then say, "Well I'm just SHOCKED and APPALLED that someone robbed me!" Most people would probably think, "Well, it's awful you got robbed, and that guy should go to jail. But why in the *world* were your walking around downtown Detroit with a wad of cash hanging out of your pocket on purpose in the FIRST place?!"
How is this different? Why should the girl bear NO personal responsibility? Yes, what the boys did was WORSE than what she did. No doubt. And the fact that she ended up taking her life is tragic, surely. None of that excuses her of her own personal responsibility in the situation.
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This is absurd.
Just because I believe the girl acted shamefully at that party does NOT mean I have no compassion for her and her parents.
Again, it's not an either/or situation. Yes, it is absolutely awful that this girl felt she had to take her life.
That *still* doesn't make what she did at that party not shameful.
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It is not often someone demonstrates the courage to post something that is both so hurtful and so fundamentally wrong. Congratulations. I guess.
Yeah, I get it, people don't agree with me. I'm ok with that.
I'm curious how it is that MY OPINION on something can be *wrong*. I was unaware that you, ChocolateReign, were the authority on right and wrongness.
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wow wow wow.
Because you know everything about raising children, please lead the charge to shame parents and tell them they didn't do enough. Because you know all about the circumstances that led to all their parenting decision, so certainly you could have done better.
UGH
Yeah. 'Cause that's what I said.
If I had a daughter, and she was getting drunk and making out with multiple boys at fifteen years old, I would feel I had done something seriously wrong in raising the girl.
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Bethany, my parents did all of those things and I still went to parties, drank too much, and made out with guys.
Sometimes parents can do everything right and a child will still get things wrong. I was just fortunate not to have guys like in the article in my home town.
I don't disagree. I'm sure that happens. I did say 'perhaps'.
I don't care if it's and unpopular or un 'PC" opinion. I think the parents failed their daughter, and I think the girl did things she shouldn't have, AND I think the boys should be in legal trouble ALONG with being ashamed of what they did. I don't see how that's so horrible, but apparently it is.
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Audrie's dead by suicide. I think the message of shame you are so stridently shrieking got through to her loudly and clearly by the people in her life.
If her parents had bothered to teach her from a young age that those things were shameful, and were involved in her life, and made sure she did not put herself in such dangerous situations, perhaps she would still be alive. If her parents had taught her she was worth more than that, that she didn't need to do those shameful things to get approval from other people, perhaps she wouldn't even have been in that situation.
If people would bother to parent their children, teach them morals and values and how to treat one another, perhaps all this evil wouldn't happen in the first place.
The fact that she killed herself does not *change* the fact that her participation in the event was shameful. It just doesn't.
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The above is an example of slut shaming. Audrie's behavior ( lying to parents, drinking) are not CRIMES. They are not mitigating factors in her assault.
It's only when a discussion of the crime happens without mention of Audrie's drinking, clothes, lying to her parents that we have a equity and safety.
As long as Audrie's perceived slutiness (and, as one of the moms featured in the article says, "she's been messed up for a long time) is still MENTIONED, the crime is obscured.
(BTW, lying to parents about supposed sleepovers and teen drinking has existed for decades. This is not new.)
I do not want to live in a society that teaches that Audrie *shouldn't* be ashamed of what she did. Because she SHOULD.She should be ashamed of lying to her parents, of drinking underage, of getting drunk and making out with multiple boys in one night, of wearing see-through shorts pulled down so that her thong underwear shows. She should have parents that teach her that those things are shameful. Because they are.
None of that relieves the boys of their own misdeeds. None of that means they shouldn't be held accountable for violating her. It doesn't have to be an either/or situation. It's both. Both her and the boys did things they shouldn't have.
I don't think it's fair to say that the girl has NO responsibility for what happened to her in this situation. SHE chose to go to the party, knowing that she did not have parental permission to go. SHE chose to get drunk, knowing that she shouldn't even be drinking at all in the first place. I'm sure she knew that she'd lose control of her faculties once drunk. We all know that. And then those boys CHOSE to violate her. They ALL did things they shouldn't have.
She should be ashamed. I did some very similar things when I was just a few years older than this girl. And yes, I am now very ashamed of them. Those boys should be ashamed. Regardless of how drunk a girl is, you shouldn't be taking naked pictures of her and showing them to your friends. I just don't get how it is that we're supposed to teach our boys that girls can be as slutty and falling down drunk as they want, but you'd better be completely responsible every single second. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. EVERYONE should be taking care to be responsible for themselves AND each other.
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Noone should be drunk, NO ONE! We are talking about underage drinkers here. They are all at fault. Children have been lying to their parents to go to illegal parties, all for the sake of popularity.
This is a huge reason my children will never go to the local public school. It is touted as being so great academically, highest college bound students, etc...... What they don't tell you is that living in a more affluent area, they also can afford the best drugs, the most expensive alcohol, and the cars and access to get to them.
High schoolers think they are invincible, even instances like this can blow over until the next death or suicide or whatever.
Call me over protective, call me helicopter mom, call me oppressive for not allowing my boys to be a part of this or needing to know where they are going or who they are with, call me uber conservative "scary", I truly don't care when it comes to my own children.
Should I teach my boys not to take advantage of a drunk girl? Sure. However, I would take it a step further and tell them that this is NOT the kind of party they should even be attending nor are any of these kids the kind they should be friends with.
You are the company you keep.
Dawn
THIS.
For crying out loud. No, the boys are not innocent. They should not have violated the girl. They should not have taken pictures, drawn on her with markers. She is not innocent, either. She lied to her parents about what she was going to be doing, she was drinking when she obviously is not of age. They all are to blame. All of them. She shouldn't have been violated, and at the same time, she shouldn't have put herself in a postion to BE violated. Because none of them should have been there in the first place. They shouldn't have been having a drunk party full of 15 year olds. Where are their freaking parents?!
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I'm frequently faced with more than I can handle. Many (most?) of us are, I'd assume. The trials my father went through this past year with his heart attack? Many, MANY moments that I could not handle. And other, even more personal situations in my life feel like more than I can bear at times.
But God.Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content: I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. - Philippians 4:11-13
Without Jesus I am nothing and can do nothing. I mean that sincerely. He is my strength, my rock, my ever present help in times of trouble. And scripture promises us that He will be. On my own, I am useless and can do nothing. But through Christ alone can I persevere.
This life is full of hardships for everyone in our own ways. I cope by giving my burdens to Christ. When I try to carry them on my own, I fail miserably every time. Christ is what sustains me day to day. -
Wow. That is an incredibly generous offer! I would be really scared, though, that something might happen. If we were in your car and were in an accident I would feel just terrible.
Well, yeah, I understand that.
Hmmm....
Perhaps your parents know someone selling a vehicle who would be willing to lend or 'rent' it to you while you're here?
I don't know your parent's financial situation, but could *they* buy a vehicle for you to use while you're here, and then sell it again once you've gone back? You could forward them money to use and then they could send the money back after they sold it, too.
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Heather, I'd buy the car and then ask your parents to make sure to use it at least once a month. Like others said, it's important to actually drive the car for a fair amount of time on a regular basis.
Are your parents involved in a church? Or did you all have a church family here in Michigan before you moved oversees? Perhaps one of those groups has someone (or more than one person) who has a vehicle to lend you.
For example, I know we don't know each other, but I'd lend you my van for a solid week to ten days. But honestly, it'd be too much to lend it for four to six weeks. So if you know four or five people who could lend a vehicle for a week or so each, maybe that'd work? -
I had to vote other.
I think it's fine for Christians to consume alcohol, either daily or occasionally, given two things; 1) that it is not causing another brother or sister to stumble, and 2) that there is no drunkeness involved.I, myself, have a glass of wine about every two years, lol. But if another Brother or Sister wants to have a glass of wine or a beer each night with their dinner, that makes no difference to me at all. However, if that other Brother or Sister was overindulging and becoming drunk, that is where I believe they are disobeying Scripture. Also there can be a situation where one Brother or Sister's alcohol consumption could become a stumbling block to another Brother or Sister, and in that case, Scripture instructs it would be best to abstain. (Perhaps a husband has past issues with alcohol abuse, and his while his wife is able to have a glass of wine with dinner and be fine, perhaps it's best if alcohol is not kept in the house at all so as not to be a temptation to her husband. Just trying to give an example.)
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From a protective, self care, wise standpoint, I am not going to subject my family to an engagement that is designed to undermine (and confront) my family values.
It's not a matter of strength, knowledge, or "faith". It's a matter of being smart with my relationship rules.
Does that make sense?
Sure, it makes sense. I just don't agree. :D
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I enjoy spiritual/religious/philosophic discussion, I've raised my children to welcome them.
But, no, I would not allow a relative to deliberately undermine something as foundational as world view with my minor children. It's an inappropriate role and intention.
I probably have more in common, theologically, with the grandpa. It's the engagement and motive that concern me.
I agree with you, Joanne, on not approving of Grandpa's motive. I was however just pointing out that it does not have to be a 'bad' thing. Look at what Jesus tells his followers in Matthew 5:11-12:
"Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
I don't think it's a bad thing to have someone question the faith of our children. I think it's a good thing. And I think what Athiest Grandpa may mean for evil, the Lord can work for good. I guess i don't see how him questioning the children about any aspect of their faith is in some way undermining it. If that's the case, that the faith they hold can be undermined by questioning, then I don't want them holding that faith.The truth of the Gospel can stand up to any questioning by Grandpa, and if the children don't know all the truth they need to answer Grandpa, then what better way to find out where their education in the Word is weak, you know? I want them to hold TRUE faith, to KNOW whom and what it is they believe and why.
Question away, I say. All it can do is make them stronger That's my view, anyway.
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But I would rather that than having my having my FIL, who is an athiest, gleefully tell me that he can't wait until my kids are older so that he can have "discussions" with them in the hopes of undermining their faith.
See, while it does seem as though your FIL means this in a harmful way, it actually is a *good* thing. I'd welcome that. I want my boys to be so firm in their faith that they CAN have a discussion with their atheist grandpa about it. How can that be bad? Anything Athiest Grandpa has to say should either be able to be answered by them, or else if they don't know the answer, it should spur them on to discover it. It wouldn't worry me at all. They *should* be able to answer for what they believe. How else do the know what it is that they believe?
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Oh Aimee. I'm so, so sorry. I know exactly what you're going through. Praying for your dad.
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I would want to be with Jesus as he taught the multitudes. :)
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I had a tubal with my youngest who was a c-section. I regret that decision terribly.
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It's really hard to say. I wouldn't know what to think until I knew why the groups you mentioned were cancelled.
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Sorry about your pain, Jean.
But your story reminded me of something. When my dad had his heart attack last year, mom and I noticed that his toenails needed clipping. Dad was on a ventilator; there was no way he could do it himself. And mom was, um, uninterested in doing it. I just remember being so blessed to be able to serve my dad in that small way.
Perhaps your dh will see it the same way. :) -
I grew up at a Nazarene steeplehouse, we always had this:
Nazarene Champagne
1 (2-liter) bottle white grape juice
1 (2-liter) bottle ginger ale
And since I'm from Michigan, we ALWAYS used Vernors, not ginger ale. But if you can't get Vernors, ginger ale will do. :D
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Just got a phone call from a friend. People are getting together at dinner time tomorrow at a local park to celebrate her son's second birthday. We homechurch; this will likely be her big family plus his big family plus various others we fellowship with. Lots of people, lots of kids, all just very causal, meeting up at the park when the men get off of work, bringing our dinner so the kids can play and celebrate the boy's birthday. She said not to worry about a gift, but I'd like to bring him something small at least.
What's a fun, unique, inexpensive thing I could pick up for the boy? -
I'm totally Team Miley after watching that!
Editing out my comment because I got a PM informing me that it came across a way I did not intend it to.
Potluck Appetizers - WWYD?
in The Chat Board
Posted
We have a potluck every Sunday at our homefellowship (usually at least 50 people, frequently more). Nothing is ever assigned; everyone brings whatever they want. It always works out just fine.
So I vote for wingin' it.