I know this was not directed at me (I don't think anyway), but I'm not sure that I see what the big issues are. I find it hard to get too worked up over "clubs" that adults may or may not choose to join. If you think they are super-evil dens of stupidity, don't join one. Don't attend their parties, don't date members, etc.....

We do because we have been camping for part of every week for the last month. We can only take off so many days before we lose momentum or get very behind. Plus dd is in an online class that does not stop for camping trips. She has to study daily for it, even when camping. If it were a one-time thing, we would not bother.

We do. But I only have one kid and we are usually in a small tent. It is also too cold here for doing school outside. We typically focus on individual work so dd can go into the tiny tent by herself and get some work done while also resting and warming up. We do not do a full load. Usually just Latin and math. We camp frequently this time of year so this is the compromise between. Our normal school day is about 5 hours whereas she might only do 2 while camping. It is messy for sure. School stuff all over the tent.

Again, there is just too much diversity within the greek community to make generalizations. I also teach at a university with a prominent greek system and have not has this experience at all. In fact, my greek students, as well as my athletes, tend to be my best and most engaged students. Athletes. Yep. Another stereotype busted in my (anecdotal) experience. Our university has stats on scholarship. As a group, both the athletes and greek members have a higher GPA than the entire campus population. Another stat our university records is public service hours. Again, the greek individuals spend a lot (magnitudes, in fact) more time serving the community. What is not recorded is anything about "rape culture." So, I cannot comment on that. I am not defender of greeks in general. I would not encourage my dd to join one. But my hackles go up when a whole group of people are deemed "stupid." There are plenty of stupid greeks (and football players and politicians and......). I do not believe that frats (or sports teams or government institutions) cause the stupidity. In some cases they may aid to encourage/cover-up/feed the stupidity. Some may even attract a certain brand of stupid (like the rape culture mentioned in posts above). But I don't think abolishing the organizations is going to significantly decrease the stupid. Those issues go much deeper than the individual organizations.

I do not have an opinion about the university in question or that situation since I cannot know what the issues/motivation is behind the changes. But, I was greek in college and as a result many people that I knew/know were/are greek, both male and female. It was a very good experience for me. And like anything, there are good and bad people everywhere, including in the greek system. I don't think you can paint with such a broad stroke. Every college is different, every greek organization is different, and every student is different. I have seen very good and very bad greek experiences. I cannot say it is a system worth preserving at all cost. I am quite sure it will eventually vanish. But there is value for a lot of people and most members/organizations do not even remotely resemble the stereotypes. Some do but most do not. I can say the organization I belonged to is nothing like the stereotypical sorority. Not even sort-of close.

That is true. I think we are on the cusp of a change in etiquette rules and it is a bit uncomfortable....as I am sure is true of past changes. I am glad I was not around when the whole standing-any-time-an-elder-entered-a-room started to go out of fashion. Or those first awkward dinner parties when we stopped assigning people's seats at the meal by "status" and gender. Times change. 10 years ago most people (on messages boards anyway) thought any mention of gifts on a child's bday invitations as 100% wrong. The tide has changed and many people see a need for a change. Uncomfortably, that means breaking a few rules.

Wait! What?!?! I thought you did not have to send a thank you if a person was thanked in person! Oh boy....I am going to have a pretty long list of notes to write......

Well..... You *can* as long as you are willing to break the rules.

I was posed with similar questions the first time dd had a charity-based bday party. My dd was younger than 8 and it was her idea so I assume she was on board. She read about the idea in a book and asked to do it. However, I did mull the question over because I found it interesting. The questioning was all along the lines of "Won't your kid feel bad getting no presents?" and "Aren't gifts the whole point of the party?" Now, I do not believe a child should ever be forced into turning their bday party into a charity event if that is not what they want to do. But I do feel that if the parents decide a no-gift party best fits the needs of the family (for whatever reason) that it is really not the big tragedy that it can be made out to be. The kid is getting a PARTY. That is pretty cool and fun. Not all kids get parties. If my kid balked at a no-gift party, we would honor that because our reasons for preferring them are not life-or-death. Our reasons have more to do with limited space, preferring to not waste party time on gift opening, and having a very generous extended family that provides more than enough gifts for all of dd's birthdays. However, if our reasons were more important to me (as a parent) and my kid decided that the party was not good enough unless it included gifts, I would be very tempted to call off the party. The party itself is a privilege. I was a bit taken aback by the people who suggested I was somehow neglecting my kid by "denying her gifts" at her party. Don't get me started on the party guest that threw a knock-down-tantrum-of-epic-proportion when she learned there were no goodie bags. Wow.

It has worked very well for us. Dd has had two charity-based birthday parties and a few others that were simply "no gift." In all cases, no one showed up with a traditional gift. However, it is not uncommon where I live and we live far from family. It would be family that I suspect would ignore the request. But it is unlikely that we would ever have a friends/family mixed party anyway so it probably still would not be a problem. Despite knowing it was likely not going to be a problem, we did have a plan in place in the event that someone(s) did show with a traditional gift so as not to make everyone else feel awkward. They would not be opened as part of the party and the gift would be acknowledged privately then moved out of the party area. A VERY prompt thank you note would be issued in addition to a phone call or text acknowledging that the gift was opened and appreciated once the party was over. We felt having a plan in place was important since we are technically the ones "breaking the rules." We know there was a potential of someone not knowing if they should follow our request or not. It never happened but we were prepared.

My dd has had two birthday parties in which she wanted donated items for the local humane society. This was the wording we used: "Your presence is gift enough. However, if you feel you cannot attend empty-handed, please feel free to bring items for our local humane society. The items needed can be found at <insert link here>." In both cases, most people brought items for the shelter. A few brought cash donations. A few brought nothing. Some people wrapped the donated items. Some attached birthday cards, some did not. No one brought a traditional gift and as far as I know no one was offended. Many commented on it being a great idea. And several of dd's friends ended up copying the idea in later years. The best part was going to the shelter after the party to deliver the items (and play the the animals). I think dd enjoyed that more than the party.

I am in full agreement that this invitation is beyond rude. But I also disagree with the above statement. I *do* think it is OK to say "no gifts." Wanting to celebrate a major milestone with as many people as you want does not also mean you want (or can even handle) 50 gifts for a baby that does not even care about stuff. While I know it is against the current etiquette rules to say "no gifts," it is one rule I think needs to go. To me gathering together with people who are important to you to celebrate a birthday/anniversary/wedding/etc should not mean being obligated to accept physical items that you do not want. It is always rude to reject a gift. One should accept gifts graciously, even if given after being asked to abstain. But I also think there is nothing wrong with requesting "no gifts" if one simply wants to gather and celebrate without an avalanche of stuff. It is my hope that the rules will change in this direction soon. Meanwhile, despite being a huge stickler for etiquette rules in general, I will break this particular rule with no apologies. Luckily, most of the people I run with feel the same way so no one is offended.

I am all for tossing many of the etiquette rules regarding gifts but that is just beyond tacky. I think it is OK to say "no gifts" but to asking for a specific gist is bad bad BAD. I would either skip the party or bring the gift you already purchased.

We have made our limitations clear from the moment the idea was introduced as a possibility. We have restated our position every time it has come up in our presence. And honestly, it is not the wedding couple themselves that is giving us a hard time about it. It is other family members. This is not technically the wedding couple's problem. But it still is putting us in a very awkward position. And really, who says "You should spend $5000+ to attend our wedding?" For real? Who asks that? Again, they can ask and we can decline. No problem. It just flabbergasts me that anyone thinks that is a reasonable request. I would be very embarrassed to ask anyone to do that. Especially when you know that it would be a terrible financial mistake for the people you are asking.

I 100% agree with you that it is their day to enjoy and plan as they see fit. I have no problem with destination weddings in general or even in the case of the family members in question. Etiquette says one can plan their wedding whenever, wherever, and with whomever they choose (no kids, etc....). Etiquette ALSO says that invitees are free to politely decline the invitation should any of the planned parameters not work for the invitee. This is where the problem comes. We are expected to be there. This has been plainly stated numerous times. And no, no one is going to help financially nor would we accept that sort of gift should it be offered. We could know 4 years in advance and still would not save for it. It is not about the cash itself (not that we have it) but the principle that we should even consider spending what would amount to a sizable chunk of a year's income on a weekend-long wedding in a location we would never otherwise visit. If it were my own kid I doubt we would attend. In this case, I believe it is asking (way) too much. Everyone involved knows (in general) our income level and our priorities. Again, as long as we are allowed to politely decline, we have no problems. My point in bringing this topic up in the first place is just to illustrate that this method can backfire. You might "weed out" some "extraneous" people (which I do find a bit sad, BTW), but you might also "weed out" people you want to attend. I do not know many people who would be comfortable accepting part or all of the travel expenses as a gift from a wedding couple. I certainly am not.

But this puts some people in a really awkward situation. Especially close family members. We have a close family member who is considering a destination wedding. We are expected to attend. Some or all of us are likely expected to be IN the wedding party. However, we cannot even sort of afford plane fare, hotel, and all the other expenses that goes along with this trip. Sure, it weeds out the not-so-close people but it is also going to cause a great deal of drama because we simply cannot do it. We have stated this upfront as the options are being considered but everyone keeps brushing it off as "not a big deal." Etiquette says we are 100% free to decline the invitation but family dynamics does not. Our current tactic is to just keep our fingers crossed that they will decide something else. If that fails, there are going to be a lot of hurt feelings.

My dd is a pretty serious player and we do still rent. She is currently on a 3/4 but started on a 1/32 so we have been at this for some time. We started renting from her teacher but switched to a violin shop out of Chicago when dd got experienced enough to need a better violin. In your case, I would consider buying since you know each size will likely be used by 4 of your dc. In that case the pros of renting do not outweigh to cons of buying. In our case, with only one violin player, the hassle of trying to find a good quality instrument for each size then trying to sell it was not worth the savings. In addition, dd is at the point now where she is picky about the type of sound the instrument makes for the types of music she most frequently performs. We went through four 3/4 violins before we found one that she (and her teacher ad her band) was happy with. And I cannot count how many bow rehairings we have been through. The advantage to renting is that all those changes, repairs, and shipping were free.

I don't know about Disney (never been there) but we have camped all over the country with tents and have never had anything stolen unless you count by bears and raccoons. I am sure it happens but it is not common enough that I have ever heard of it happening to anyone. Lock up anything super-valuable in your car as a precaution but we often do not even do that. Also, I have watched with great amusement at other tent campers doing the whole tarps-all-over-the-place thing. I do not get it. A good tent does not need a tarp under or over it. And usually the people who do this do it is a way that is completely ineffective (like the under-tarp sticking out do rain can just roll under or the top tarp that collects rain into a waterfall that dumps right on the weakest part of the tent). If the tent cannot hold up to a rain storm, don't use it! A few quality moments in the back yard with a hose will tell you if your tent falls into that category. I have even watched people completely entomb their tents in tarps. I don't know how they BREATHE. I just got back from a camping trip. It was 35 degrees and rained very hard one night. Not a drop in my 20 year old tent with no tarps. I did think of another must-have. Ear plugs. It never fails that my blissful plan to sleep in late listening to the waves of a big lake is wrecked by someone's dog yipping at 6am.

We camp a lot. Both tent and in our "RV" which is really just a tent on wheels since it is an ancient pop-up with no bathroom, fridge, or indoor water. We have our routine down pretty well. I do cook all three meals every day. We are almost never near places to buy any food so it all has to go with us and be cooked while camping. It is not really that big of a deal. I try to pre-prep as much as I can when I have the time. The two things that have really helped the cooking situation are: 1. A drying rack. This made washing dishes a millions times easier and I cannot believe it took me decades of camping to go to a thrift store and buy one. 2. A shelter tent. We have a simple REI deal with removable rain walls. We usually keep the walls off and only put them on when it is raining. In fact it often does not even get set up if the forecast is clear. But it is nice to have when we need it. Gone are the days of frying eggs with an umbrella. Again, decades..... I am more of a minimalist when it comes to camping. If I spend more time prepping than I do camping, I know I have gone too far. We also have a small vehicle so are limited in what we can bring. People are adaptable. I would rather wish I had something I forgot than pack and unpack far more than we need. A word about ice.... I am cheap so I hoard the ice from our maker for a few days before a trip. I just bag it up so the ice maker keeps making more. I also have some square and rectangular rubbermaid containers that I will use to freeze blocks. We usually still have to buy more ice if it is hot and we are gone more than 5 days, but there is usually at least some remains of those blocks at the end of every trip no matter what. I also usually bring two coolers for longer trips. One for the meals and another for drinks and snacks. The drinks and snacks are OK if they are not really cold but I keep the meal cooler very well-iced the whole time.

This is so true! Our co-op and farm market takes SNAP. But that is a recent development. And I don't think there is an easy way to access a CSA via SNAP. Part of our experiment stemmed from a public discussion about SNAP access. This was part of a discussion on trying to get our co-op into the SNAP program. The attitudes and opinions ranged from: 1. That would not be a good use of limited budget because co-op food is a "luxury." 2. People using government money to feed themselves should eat "cheaper" foods. 3. If tax dollars are feeding people they SHOULD have access to the highest quality food available. And many others....some too harsh to rewrite here. #1 was the biggest concern. People were concerned that if SNAP participants shopped at the co-op, their money would not go as far and it might do more harm than good. I wanted to see for myself....which is where the experiment started. Granted most of the people in my community that are on SNAP do have access to kitchens and reliable transportation. We are not big-city and therefore do not deal with the urban barriers of food deserts, transportation limitations, or widespread homelessness.

I have stayed off of this thread for a number of reasons but am now read to share. My family did a similar experiment about 2 years ago. I calculated how much my family would qualify for in food stamps and we spent a year sticking to that budget. No cheating other than while traveling and while hosting a full house during the holidays (although I did subtract our normal weekly allowance during those times). I did have a small urban garden but took the costs out of the budget. At the end of the season I determined that what I grew actually cost me more than it would have to purchase once I factored in water and materials (mostly because I am a horrible gardener....but I do keep trying....). We also had a CSA share and utilized the farmer's market which was also taken out of the budget accordingly. We tracked every single penny including a bag of chips or bottle of water from gas stations. Most of our food (outside of the garden, CSA, and farm market) came from our local small food cooperative. The rest came from our local small grocery stores. We have a Walmart but I have never been in it. I included all cleaning supplies and toiletries in the budget. I would wager that 80% of our food for that year was organic. We are vegetarians. We live in a high food cost area. I learned a great deal. First, I learned it is possible. We often had money leftover. I typically saved this up for bulk purchases like rice and legumes. I also learned that it would not have been possible without a decent kitchen, some pest-free storage, and a whole lot of cooking know-how. Our co-op is often deemed "too expensive," but the items I bought were actually cheaper than the grocery store....mainly organic produce, bulk legumes/grains/nuts/spices/etc.... I especially appreciated bulk spices because I could buy just the amount I needed. There was no room in the budget for any convenience items. Aside from the occasional bag of plain corn chips and non-food items, we never ventured into the inside aisles. Eating seasonally was required to keep the within the budget. Our diet was varied and interesting. We did not eat the same thing day after day. But there were a lot of "variations on a theme," with the "theme" being grain-and-legume with vegetable. In no way do I think the typical family on SNAP could do it. I did it mainly to have an answer to all of my friends and family that claimed it was "too expensive" to eat healthily. These are people with proper kitchens with storage, free time, and plenty of know-how. I was also on the board of an organization where I felt someone had to put their money where their mouth was. But for anyone on SNAP that is working three jobs and living with a less-than-ideal kitchen situation....no way.

Kohlrabi makes an awesome slaw. I love our CSA. We have been members of different CSAs for 15 years. It was scary at first. I have stories of the "week of celery" and the "15 pounds of kale." It was hard to figure out. But now it is awesome. I shop for staples during CSA season and never meal plan (which I have to do religiously the rest of the year). It is very freeing. I start planning things out when I pick up our share by thinking of all the possible ways I can use everything. I try to do my weekly staple-shopping that day or the next so I can be sure to have whatever other ingredients I might need. By the end of the week I am usually left with the harder-to-use stuff. If I am stumped, I simply plug the ingredients into google and see what I get. I found an awesome beet pasta recipe and rutabaga-fennel gratin which are now family favorites using google searches. We never ever waste any. If we are traveling or have a bad week, I either give part to friends or freeze what I can for winter. If you are even remotely adventurous and not afraid to cook new things, it really saves a lot of money and the food is so fresh. We just signed up for our first winter share and I am pretty excited about it. You can never make too much cream of celery soup. It freezes well. Our celery here is so...uh....flavorful....that we could never eat it raw. After that fateful week of celery, we had four complete family meals worth of soup! Plus extra celery frozen for future soup stock. I felt pretty accomplished after conquering that bushel of celery. I think it really was a bushel.

I have chewed on this question for years. I am frequently questioned about homeschooling regulations (or lack there of) because we are the only family in our social circle who does it or even considers it a real option. I live in a no report, no regulation state. For selfish reasons, I am really happy that I do. I do not personally know of anyone who is abusing this but I am sure like anything there are people who are falling through the cracks. What I would be super-curious to know (and I suspect there has to be some data somewhere about this) is if there are significant differences in educational outcomes for homeschoolers in high vs. low regulation states. My gut feeling is that there is not. Because.... Educational neglect is just another form of child abuse. Many children go through the public school system that cannot read or do basic math. Sometimes that is the fault of the school. More often (IMO) it is family circumstance and/or abuse. Sometimes entire schools full of kids plagued by bad circumstances and/or abuse. We have proven over recent history that try as we might we will never stamp out ALL child abuse or suffering. I am sure in some cases, children of "errant" homeschoolers could benefit from being swooped up and taken to school. But I doubt that the underlying issues would be solved and those children would still suffer from their circumstances, whether educationally or physically or emotionally or all of the above. Does that mean we shouldn't try to solve these problems? No. But I don't think regulation, testing, or "swooping to the rescue" will do as much good as many believe. Fortunately, unlike physical and emotional abuse, educational neglect can be reversed, even after a person reaches adulthood. So, while I believe that "errant" homeschoolers do exist and I do think they suck, I think basic well-being should be the bigger focus. The Susie that cannot do math is sad. The Susie that is hungry every day, being beaten after school, AND can't do math needs food and protection before we worry about the math. There are far too many Susie's out there, in and outside of school. Since there are many kids falling through the abuse cracks IN school, I cannot see how making every homeschooling family jump through hoops of regulation is going to help anyone. The people who don't care are not going to care about regulations. Those of us who do are just going to have even more hassle to deal with.

I have done the cog, driven up, and hiked up. All cool. I don't have any lesson plan ideas. BUT, do not wear anything on your outer-most layer that you would be heartbroken if it got stained. The soot from the engine can sometimes blow into the passenger areas and can stain clothing. I was wearing a yellow rain jacket when we went and this happened to me. It was not a treasured item so I was not upset but I could see being quite upset if it had been some of my more expensive technical items.

We never ever buy books. We live close enough to the library for dd to walk there on there own. We visit as a family at least once a week and dd goes on her own two or more times. We use the ILL and hold systems for series that must be in order. It is very rare that she has to wait for a book. When it happens, she just reads something else until it is available. Unfortunately, relatives often buy her books as gifts. In theory I do not have a problem with it but we have a small house and dc's book collection has long ago outpaced the bookshelf space we have. It is so bad that she often finds it easier to go check a wanted book out from the library rather than try to search through her own shelves.