Hi all, Is there a grammar program that uses real literature, rather than sentences made up for the purpose of dissection? I'm not super happy about teaching grammar in the first place, as I've never seen the value in it, and I especially cannot deal with programs that have these lame sentences in them. If we have to do it, I'd like some real sentences/passages. We're a book and literature based family using classical and CM methods. I thought I heard that Michael Clay Thompson programs used real literature for grammar, but in looking at the samples online all I'm seeing are the made-up-for-grammar-purposes sentences. If anyone knows of anything like what i'm looking for, I'll be so excited. I need something for mainly middle and high school level. Thanks! Nicole

I just asked a question earlier on the forum about using WWS with an older student. Sounds like you can start them with WWS 1 and they will get a lot out of it, or in level 2 if you think they already have the skills in WWS 1. I also have not taught my current tenth grader writing very well, so was planning to use WWS 3 but after looking at it determined she would be overwhelmed and lost. I'm probably going to split the difference and start her with WWS 2. Writing With Skill looks to me like the most straightforward, effective and easy to use program that I have researched. I'm using the level 1 with my 13 yo son right now and really like it.

I was going to use WWS level 3 for my 15 yo daughter this year, but when I finally was able to look at the sample I realized she would be clueless without having done any of the other WWS levels. I was planning to use the recommendations for tenth grade in SWB's thing about what programs to use for which grades, which recommended no lower than WWS 3 for a tenth grader. My daughter's writing experience thus far though, has been one year of an IEW themed program. So, I can either do another level of IEW with her, or do a lower level of WWS with her. I like the WWS better than IEW, just the organization and system of it all is much more to my liking than IEW, but as I looked at WWS 2 it seemed like that would even be a stretch for her. However doing WWS 1 surely would be too elementary for a tenth grader, would it not? Has anyone done WW2 or 1 with a high schooler and what was your experience? Thanks, Nicole

Thanks for those links. I do believe that answers my questions. I had read that article about Why Writing Programs Fail before, but it was helpful to read it again. I will have to look into having him do level two instead. Thanks again, Nicole

So after much thought about what I could use this year to get my 13, 11 and 9 year olds up to speed with writing skills, I decided to use the Writing with Ease and Writing with Skill books. I loved what SWB had to say about writing programs, and I loved where she said we could ditch journal pages as a method of teaching writing if it wasn't working with my kids, since it's a form of creative writing. I've been trying this route for several years with pain and no success! I'm wondering though, as I'm using WWE 3 with my son. I have two questions about the dictation portions. First, this dictation is done differently than any other way I've seen it done. I've used CM methods for years, where the student studies the passage visually, then I dictate it to them, correct it, and then they rewrite any mistakes. The WWE has me dictate to him without him seeing the passage first, and correcting him as he writes along. He's struggling mightily with this. He has no idea how to spell many of the words without studying them first, and correcting him as he writes is causing many tears and confusion. What is the rationale behind dictation without first studying visually? Is this preparation for writing skills somehow? Is there any reason why I shouldn't have him study the passage visually as well? Also, I'm wondering if this is an indication I should back up a level. I did the placement test for him and he placed in level 3, but if he can't spell the words without seeing them first does this mean he should back up a level? Second, does the dictation help him learn how to write? I was always taught that dictation was to develop spelling skills. Is this the purpose of the dictation exercises in WWE, or is it to develop some other skill? I'm just unfamiliar with this approach. I really felt good about using this program, and I believe Mrs. Bauer knows what she's talking about, but I need to see how this all fits together better. Thanks for insight and/or experience. Nicole

Thank you both for detailing the methods you've used, as well as the curriculum. Really good ideas. I think the oral spelling idea will be helpful, and the spelling words from the essay writing.

Hello all, I don't usually have the opportunity to post here much but always appreciate the responses I get when I do! So thank you in advance. My 15 yo daughter and 13 yo son both are mediocre to poor spellers. They were taught basic phonics & spelling in early elementary ps, and after I pulled them out, I have done studied dictation as their basic spelling curriculum. However, they are still way below any level I consider acceptable in this area, and considering their ages, this needs to be rectified soon. They aren't completely handicapped spellers, and they don't have learning disabilities, they just need a lot of work. I haven't had them write many of their papers on the computer at this point, so they aren't dependent on spellcheck. So, this year, I need some pretty rigorous spelling curriculum that works. Because of their ages, I don't have time to try and dump various things. I did some AAS with them last year, but it is too juvenile for them, didn't have enough practice, required too much time from me to make sure it happened every day, and wasn't a good fit. I hear people say all the time that workbook programs don't produce good retention and aren't effective, but what else is there? We are ramping up their essay writing and literature study this year, so that will help, but I also want a dedicated spelling curriculum that can be done mostly independently to make sure this problem is taken care of asap. With our family dynamics this year, I will have time to do a 1-2 x/week spelling tutoring time with me, but daily not more than a few minute check. Is studied dictation just not an effective method by itself? I haven't homeschooled from the beginning so I don't know the long-term success of dictation vs. other methods. Recommendations?? Much thanks, Nicole

When you use R&S, do you use all the levels they have? I heard that the upper levels are primarily writing instruction rather than grammar. Also, can you give me any coaching on how you actually use R&S? We used it for a couple of years a few years back, but trying to use the TM for the upper levels got so frustrating that I sold the program just for that reason. I loved level 2, but by the time I got to level 4 I was needing to use the TM to do it with my kids and I just hated the way it was laid out, couldn't find things quickly and it is so huge and cumbersome. Maybe not a good reason, but it got to the point that I was doing it less and less so it wasn't getting used anyway. I am considering it again though, if I can find a way make the TM work. I haven't looked at The Mother Tongue, but I am intrigued. Who was this lady who made the original quote? I have not heard of her.

Hello ladies, I recently got some Key to... Workbooks for my kiddos as a supplement to their regular math program. Actually they're going to take a break from the regular math and just do these workbooks until they get these concepts down, then we will pick back up. I got the fractions series and algebra series. As I am looking through them, I really like them, and I wonder if they can be used as a stand-alone math program. Or, are they just not thorough enough? It occurred to me, maybe I could use these (other than the algebra one) to get a solid basic math foundation and then start in with a regular pre algebra program. Has anyone used this series as a stand alone math program, or is it strictly for supplemental purposes only? Many thanks, Nicole

Hello ladies, I recently got some Key to... Workbooks for my kiddos as a supplement to their regular math program. Actually they're going to take a break from the regular math and just do these workbooks until they get these concepts down, then we will pick back up. I got the fractions series and algebra series. As I am looking through them, I really like them, and I wonder if they can be used as a stand-alone math program. Or, are they just not thorough enough? It occurred to me, maybe I could use these (other than the algebra one) to get a solid basic math foundation and then start in with a regular pre algebra program. Has anyone used this series as a stand alone math program, or is it strictly for supplemental purposes only? Many thanks, Nicole

{Are you talking about getting an associates and then transferring to another college for a Bachelor's or getting a Bachelor's and transferring to another school for a Masters/Doctorate/etc.?} Considering both. Have you had your degree from TESC considered to be less than valid by anyone? It's just that I heard a while ago that some universities don't consider a degree from Excelsior, done by credit by exam, to be a "real" degree. I have researched these schools thoroughly and everything seems 100% legitimate. I'm just wondering if anyone else has experience with it. Getting an associate's or bachelor's from Excelsior or TESC this way will fit very well into the way we homeschool and our educational plans, so we're very interested in it.

Along the same vein as the CollegePlus thread... We aren't planning to use CollegePlus, but are thinking about CLEP testing in order to get an Associate's, or possibly Bachelor's from Excelsior or Thomas Edison. Has anyone gotten degrees from either of these colleges? If so, were you able to get into another college of your choice with these? I know they are accredited, and that is the main thing most people are concerned about. I'm wondering if diplomas from these colleges are looked down upon by admissions in other colleges, since they accept credit by exam.

Is NAHRS still an accredited high school? I know it used to be, and assumed it still was. Then I saw a thread from a year ago saying that it's no long accredited. I can't tell from their website. Does anyone know? Or used NAHRS recently, and what kind of experience did you have? Thanks!

Thanks for the suggestions! I have vocabulary cartoons and couldn't really figure out how to use it... I am checking out the Sadlier Oxford stuff now. I can't quite tell, is a workbook program or a computer based program? Or components of both? Thanks!!

IEW. I've tried various programs 3x. Sonlight. Two cores, flopped. Still have the books and plan to read them, I still don't know what the problem was. "Sonlight called to me until that whole locked thread where John kept digging himself into a huge hole with his botched slavery research. :/" What was that about? I've been out of the loop for a bit, can someone give me the upshot?