Yes the shorter version of the model is for the Analysis and the Imitation work. Detailed outlining is taught in the Homer level so keeping it simple here is fine.

Yes the shorter version of the model is for the Analysis and the Imitation work. Detailed outlining is taught in the Homer level so keeping it simple here is fine.

hm, I'd like to give you a straight answer but too am not sure. These are both very good programs but they have different focuses and different paths. You can do both at the lower levels but once you get to CW Homer it may get to be too much. Both WWS and CW Homer expect more from the student, and this takes time. ymmv, only you know your dd and your abilities/time to work/tweak the programs. oh, here's an idea. You can start with WWE and WWS. Then in about 7th grade (or maybe 6th), you can start CW with the Older Beginner's books. These will take you through the CW program from Aesop through Homer in one year. The negative to this is that you may not get through the whole CW series, but you will get through more than the general graduating population. Take a look at the CW progression of books here: http://www.classicalwriting.com/Placement.htm#older You may want to look at why you want WWS 5 so much. What is it about that one that you think CW will not give? Or what is it about CW that you think the WWE-WWS series will not give you. The scope and sequence for the CW Homer can be found here: http://www.classicalwriting.com/ScopeSequenceHomer.pdf Other scope and sequences can be found near the bottom of the page that describes the CW book. I'm not sure where to find the SS for WWS, I'm sure it's out there. hope this helps some...

Keep in mind that there are two different types of formal logic. I actually liked the logic with all those crazy symbols back in college but I'm not going their with my kids yet. I also like the idea of logic as a prep for rhetoric. The path I'm looking to use is Traditional Logic I followed by Classical Writing's Herodotus writing program. The last chapter of Herodotus comes after you've finished TL 1 and studies on argumentative essays. Then you get to study how logic is used in writing. I haven't seen this tight linking of logic, writing/reading, and rhetoric anywhere else. A more formal study of rhetoric and writing will come with the Demosthenes book.

I am teaching at a co-op and I am still having trouble setting up my spread sheet for all the grades. I can list all the possible 'assignments' but I'm not sure how best to balance all the grades. Part of my problem, I think, is that I am trying to stay flexible. If they seem to be falling behind then I might not assign a paper that week. I think I'm going to add in some short, 5 min quizzes but I'm not sure how many I will end up doing. Also, some of the work is graded at home by the parents so I am just checking in class for accountability.. so how does that affect the grade? Some number of points for doing the work, zero for not? There will also be some copy type work in a commonplace book, however I am not sure they will all have time to do this additional work... so this will probably need to be optional. Since I'd like them to do this work I'll need an incentive. Thus I'm thinking of allowing so many weeks of this to replace a poor quiz grade. I have already graded a few papers. I just graded each one out of 100 points as this seemed the easiest way to get this done. I was thinking that I can always weight them later. Any suggestions?

yes, that is just what I told him.... write down each one, work it out, and then put that into the computer. This will take longer though and there are lots of problems... ug. It will make he pay more attention to the actual question asked ... in order to type in the answer correctly... So when it asks for the values of 'x', he shouldn't type in points like '(7,0),(9,0)' he needs to type in '7,9'

I think you will be fine. Herodotus assigns the Traditional Logic 1 work while going through the CW lessons. They are not incorporated into the Herodotus lessons until after the student is done with the TL 1 book. Then the last chapter of Herodotus focuses on utilizing the knowledge gained from both the TL 1 and the earlier Herodotus lessons and shows how they apply to one another. I don't think Plutarch schedules in Traditional Logic at all. Although I'm thinking of doing TL2, CW folks say that Plutarch stands alone and doesn't call for a separate theory study of grammar or logic. And it looks like the final book, Demosthenes, will take us through Rhetoric and then research papers.

Has anyone else's kids had to use this? This is my 2nd one that is stuck having to do his homework with this software and he ends up getting answers wrong just because he typed them in wrong. He doesn't get to keep a record of his work to look back on either. I do think it is neat in that he can pop up more information on the current problem and even get hints if he needs it; but it's frustrating too. My dd had to use it last year and it really didn't help her. She did much better with a professor that didn't use it. Just wondering if anyone else has to use this program also.

I didn't mean for it to get political. I got the second link in an email and was shocked. So I did a search on it and found the first link. It took a bit more to find another viewpoint but I did. That's the third link. I figure folks can research more on their own.... I was out of time. I've heard that textbooks are tend to be in-accurate but I haven't seen any proof of it... I also haven't really looked. This hit my email and surprised me. Motive aside, I just don't like that our country is producing and using a book with such an easily correctable error. Summarizing is no excuse for being inaccurate. imho.

The topic is discussed here http://www.dailypaul.com/299365/high-school-ap-history-book-rewrites-the-2nd-amendment and here http://grassrootjournal.com/liberal-fanatics-and-educators-re-write-the-bill-of-rights-only-militia-members-have-the-right-to-bear-arms-kids/ and an attempt to counter can be found here (but the comments at the bottom are interesting also) where is says that this is just a supplemental book used as a summary ... http://www.policymic.com/articles/64047/conservatives-claim-schools-are-trying-to-defeat-the-second-amendment-with-liberal-textbooks

Perhaps something like, No I don't see it as a disservice to them at all. Those options are wonderful when warrented but for these kids, this year, I have no doubts that I can help them learn all they need and want for these subjects. Oh thank you for your concern, but it's actually not a disservice, we've checked. Sometimes outsourcing fits the bill but for this year we are confident in our choices. It's a decision we revisit yearly since there are many factors to consider as you already know. Then again maybe they aren't really questioning 'you' so much as second guessing themselves. As a result some then start to 'data mine', ie. ask many questions so as to understand a point of view that they may not have even considered completely for themselves. Or they may be trying to support their own choice since they just heard about an option that they didn't choose. Many people fall prey to opinions of others without evaluating for themselves prior to making it their opinion. <like with politics> And so it may be with these people on how to homeschool high school. This situation may be growing with the spreading of online classes and the offering of public education online.

bump Just hoping that someone might have a comment on teaching 'copulas' and both 'being verbs' and 'state verbs'

I am curious about the grammar prep for the Traditional Logic 1 course. Both Harvey's Elementary Grammar and Classical Writing teach grammar terms like copula instead of Linking verbs, place this copula outside of the predicate, and distinguish between 'to be' verbs and 'state' verbs. Other grammar texts like FLL and Rod and Staff English do not teach this way. They don't even mention copula; they teach 'linking verbs' and they include them in the Predicate, and they teach 'state of being verbs'. Classical Writing suggests that it is better to learn it the other way in preparation for studying Traditional Logic 1. I have the TL1 books and I see that they also use similar terminology as CW and Harvey's. My question is: Has this been an issue when studying TL? ie. Has it been helpful to have studied it the CW way and/or has it been a problem for any of you who followed a different text like R&S Eng or something? Also, has this become an issue while doing the Herodotus lessons, especially the last chapter on logic? Thanks. I am teaching a class and many are raising issues on using Harvey's so I'm trying to gather info on why this different way of teaching will be helpful later (or learn that it is not really needed).

If your goal is to 'fill in the gaps' more than doing better on the SAT, then another option to consider is dual enrolling in a local or online community college and taking a Pre-Calc class. Our community college offers two different Pre-Calc classes... one with Trig that lists Geometry and Alg 2 as a pre-requirement and another without Trig that does not have pre-requirements (except placing into it via their placement tests... so probably needed Algebra 1). My dd was also behind in math. She only had Alg 1 so this latter Pre-Calc is what she took to fill the gaps... and it's all done within one Semester! It doesn't cover all that a Geometry class covers but it gets done what is needed to continue in math.

In a transcript listed by subject I list say all the math classes together... listing their titles, grade level taken, number and letter grade received, credits, grade points, quality points ... and the same for science, english, etc. There are plenty of posts comparing the traditional term/year ordering and subject ordering. I noticed that many of the traditional ordered transcripts include term GPAs.. ie a basic average of the grades for each semester or year and then a cummulative GPA at the end that incorporates the credits earned. What I am asking is -for those that are using a subject ordered transcript- do you tend to include an average grade for each subject (that is averaging all the math class grades, and then all the english grades, etc.)? It's easy enough for the reader to figure out, since all the info is there, but then again it is just as easy to include it. So, what say the hive?

I know some use term GPAs on their transcripts to show the average grades received for each semester or year. I'm doing my ds's transcript by subject ... does anyone do a subject GPA to show the average grade for each subject?

I think logic supports English skills. However there is more to learning logic than there is to learning other typical English skill's subtopics like spelling, vocabulary, comprehension, etc. It also depends on what type of logic you are studying as it could be informal or formal and either with a math focus or a writing focus.

Yes you can do Diogenes so long as your ds knows how to do narrations ... that's what Aesop and Homer teach. You can also do the 4 week Accelerated Homer class or do a quick survey of the core. I'll be doing that with a class of kids this year... they have already done narration work with another program last year but there are elements in Homer that they didn't get. So we will take 4 weeks or so to survey both the A&I and the WPs... Then we will begin Diogenese.

off hand I'd say CW Homer, but then again I'm knee deep in it at the moment. I've used this with my two older students a few years ago but I will be taking a class thru it this year. So I'm actually in the middle of outlining the book for class notes... I really like how well it takes you through things step by step. However when I back up and re-read your originial post I paused... why do you think your ds is not ready for WWS? and why is WWE4 not on your list if you did 1-3? *I* recommend CW because I know CW and I haven't seen the others. But there are general pros/cons on all curriculum ... we can better help compare these with what has worked and what has not worked to help narrow the list ... hths

We are also looking at about 7 to 8 hours average per day ... about 33 hours per week. This is for class and homework time for the main school subjects (math, writing/grammar, history/geography, literature/vocabulary, science, Latin, logic, and cursive handwriting... and maybe some spelling). My ds will also continue with Boy Scouts but that's separate hours. Still need to add in more physical activity and music. One thing to keep in mind .. we are preparing them for high school level work habits... which in turn are preparing them for college level work. If I remember correctly, at college we were told to expect to need about 2 hours of homework for every hour in class. Each class was 3 hours a week so hw was about another 6 hrs ... totaling about 9 hours per class and we typically took about 5 classes... so in college they expected about 45 hours a week ... usually more if you take a lab classes (~ 1 more hr cw and 2hrs hw = +3hrs totaling 48hrs/wk). This works when you consider that college is prep for the work force which averages a minimum of 40 hours a week.

I try to allow them to separate emotions from logic. I like to say, "Right, wrong, or indifferent ... this is what I was thinking / feeling ...." We sometimes realize that what we are thinking might be wrong or not the best but those thoughts were still there and to ignore them because they might have been considered wrong doesn't help and makes it hard to then talk about them. Then I try the really hard part of how did you get to those thoughts / feelings ... It's been a bit scary to hear the logic that my dd used at times ... ?Think beyond the results to consequences? Why? nothing leads to drama more than this but it takes quite a while for them to be willing to get this part! Drama... they say they hate it (while in the middle of it) but they seem to thrive on it! Also .. Venting .. need to allow them to just vent .. to just blurt out all that is on their minds without comments from us except those need to let them know we really are still listening and not getting mad .. this tends to lead them to feeling really exhausted ... a better time to let it wash away, ... maybe a word of advice or maybe just peace and quiet ... lessons can always come later The really hard part is fostering the environment for them to **be at home, where peace is there for them** drama is everywhere... even at home ... but sometimes they really need to just deflate it before they can come to terms with it

I liked how Reading Detective works. I got it on CD and my ds 'played' it on the computer. He read a story and answered basic to complex questions but also had to show where in the text backed up his answer... and it gave immediate feedback... This really helped his reading comprehension. I'll be pulling this out again for my rising 3rd grader this year. http://www.criticalthinking.com/reading-detective.html You may also want to check out: How to Read a Book by Adler. This is more of a High School book but you should be able to pull ideas from it.

BTDT I've done CC-Foundations, even tutored a few years... I know your struggles here. Integrating CC can be supper easy or can be just too hard to bother! Sounds weird but this depends on so many factors. Either way you will need to add in the math, phonics, spelling, handwriting, and reading comprehension. Easily incorporated if you consider what they cover to be all that is needed in the younger years... and yes this can be the case just fine. So then you will need to also go over the memory work daily... done. Possibly easy to incorporated if you consider what they cover to lead your home studies of those subjects. So here you will add in subjects from your memory work where you read more about each 'peg' that you memorized... in addition to working on the actual memory work daily. Doable depending on how tied you are to other curriculum. This becomes a headache if you are trying to use another curriculum but can be easy if you just use encyclopedias and library books each week (might also depend on your library system and/or internet). A little hard to incorporate if you consider what they cover to be simply extra. Then you will get what you can at class and not worry about reviewing at home (this may vary as some locations are more competative than others). Here you would then need to do all your work within 4 days including history, reading, grammar, science, art, etc. Then again you might choose to not do all these subjects at this younger age and possible leave subjects like art, music, and science to be done just at the co-op. Harder to incorporate if you consider what they cover to be a separate subject "memory work". Then you will get what you can at class and then spend time daily reviewing the memory work. Here, again, you would then need to do all your work within 4 days including history, reading, grammar, science, art, etc. Hope this helps some!

I use this also! hmm, copywork ideas... how about something from a primary source within the timeline of the history he is studying? Preamble to the Constitution Gettysburg Address Speeches from presidents Bible verses Literature pieces from: Homer, Shakespeare, CW Lewis,

I don't schedule everything every day as it has taken too long to get us to switch gears over and over. We find it better to delve into a subject till the work for the week is done. This might not be the block scheduling that others do but it is different then fitting it all in daily. Since we are with a weekly co-op we still keep to a weekly routine. My rising 8th grader will be returning to our co-op this year... so we will have Friday as due day for most of his work. Some subjects are better done daily, others work well in larger chunks. Right now I'm looking at: AA History/geography -TOG yr2 4 hrs in 1 day AA Literature/vocabulary -TOG yr2 4 hrs in 1 day AA CW-Diogenese w/Harvey's Grammar 2 hrs / 2 days AA Latin 2 2 hrs / 2 days AA-earth & space Science 4 hrs in 1 day Algebra - BCM & Khan or AoPS videos 1.5 hr / 4 days Intro to TOG Hist & Lit 30 min / 1 day cursive handwriting 30 min / 2 days logic- TT? FD? 30 min / 1 day The 4 hour slots will be in the afternoons. Basically, skills in the mornings (math, CW, latin, and logic, handwriting) and content in the afternoons (hist, lit, or science). Hopefully this will leave Thursday afternoons for catchup work, extra study time for tests, long term project work, or interest lead time. He will also have scouts and youth group in the evenings. Hope this helps some.