Too darn much! So often that my back hurts from sitting and my butt is spreading! LOL

We have and do spank...but it is not our only nor most used form of discipline.

I have *that* child. Only he was 5 when he kicked dh in the privates in a store. :( My son is now 10 and he is a very ANGRY child. His temper tantrums are getting harder and harder to handle and yesterday, he pickled up his breakfast fork and threatened to stab his brother with it. He also has ADHD, but the biggest issue is the ANGER. We too are working on how to help him. Severe punishment is not the key - but teaching him where to direct that anger and how to stop it is. I got some great advice from MelissaL and Pamela in TX on the thread titled "s/o...all you non-spankers" Please go there and read toward the end if you are interested in the actual incident and all that happened as well as the advice I got. We are seeking therapy for him (again) as he is getting too old for physical punishment and this is just not a good combination anyway with his current anger issues. Best of luck and hugs to you. I feel ya...I have been there!:grouphug:

That is a little too close to ME for comfort..and I am several HOURS away! But I am a freak when it comes to stuff like that.

Unfortunately, there was none *hangs head in shame now.* This is definitely an issue for me. I tend to focus on the "major offense" and let the other slide more often than I should. Little brother was being a butt head too and I should have dealt with both. In this situation, I was so focused on the action that caused me fear and panic and I totally ignored the little dude pushing and shoving and yelling. :(

Thanks! It has been a rough couple of days. I appreciate the understanding and prayers. :grouphug:

Mine doesn't look different. Perhaps mine is cookie locked or something...

This reminds me of the discussion I had with my son today about his fork incident. I told him that "Well, I never meant to stab my brother" just wasn't going to cut it. "If YOU picked up the fork because you were mad, and YOU lunged it toward your brother, then YOU did it. Meaning to hurt, kill, bruise, mame, or MISS all together, that doesn't change the fact that YOU did it." But, I think this is different than spanking by a mile too. My open hand on a clothed bottom is NOT the same as me picking up a fork and plunging it into someone....

I did a lot of that - particularly the talking. Immediately after it happened, my husband was on the scene because I was on the phone. Once I got off the phone, dh had sent ds to the man room to think about what he had done. He was in there a good 10-15 minutes. Then, dh and I went downstairs to talk about what had gone on as he knew it - because I really was not involved until the action and fighting was over. Once we had talked, I called older ds AND younger ds downstairs to get the facts together. What happened was this: ds10 was standing at the pantry with the door open when ds6 pushed past him to get a glass for some water. Not sure what happened, but ds10 and ds6 were yelling back and forth and ds6 started trying to shove ds10 out of the way to get to the water that ds10 was apparently now blocking out of spite. It was then (during the pushing) that ds10 grabbed the fork off his breakfast plate and held it above his sholder in a "stop or I will hurt you with this" type stance. When dh went in, ds10 had put down the fork and ds6 was tattling on ds10 as fast as he could. Ds10 lied to dh about 3 times before confessing that he, indeed, grabbed the fork and held it threateningly at ds6. Once ds10 and ds6 stated their stories, I sent ds6 out of the room and ds10 and I had a long talk. We talked about his intentions ("I wasn't going to hurt him"), we talked about how he would feel if I did this to his step-dad or his step-dad did it to me. We discussed what he should have done (come tell us, sit down and not react to the initial pushing past him to get the water, etc). Then I talking with him deeply and openly about the slippery slope and how that, once an action like that is taken, there is no turning back. I posed to him an instance in which he realizes that he didn't stop at threatening and he sees blood from stabbing the fork in his brother's head/sholder/whatever. This was hard for me, but it was definitely a shocking thought for my son too. His ADHD tends to keep him from thinking about what *could* happen and instead, he often just lives in the moment and the uh-oh comes after. We also talked about his behavior and what would happen if adults were to threaten someone like that. We discussed what could happen to him if this became a pattern and what could happen to him if his therapist felt he was a danger to himself or others. He had tears running down his face the whole time. He was not sobbing and when I asked him what had made him cry, he said he didn't know. He never gave me a good answer. The punishment ...He has chores anyway, but instead of having fun today, he stayed home and did this weekend's chores instead (mowing the yard, weeding the garden with step-dad, cleaning out the garage (sweeping, etc), and helping to pick the veggies that were ripe. I could not see taking a child to something he considered a "treat" when he had just done what he had just done. KWIM? He had a great day, did his chores well, and he is now playing with his brother quietly and happily. The problem that I have is that this could happen again...and then we go back to the slippery slope. I will say, without detail, that I was a very ANGRY child and was abused physically by my father (I did not live with him, though, thank God!). I too took a few walks on the slippery slope. Now, at the age of 30, all I can do is THANK GOD that I didn't do some of the things I could have done. My mom should have helped me. She should have found someone for me to talk to, work with, get help from. She didn't. It was only by the grace of God that I didn't make some really huge mistakes. My son is headed in the same direction...maybe worse. I have to help him NOW. I can't rely on luck or grace when I see it and know I can do something about it as long as I act instead of sitting here and waiting. If you pray, would you mind saying a few for us?:(

Oh how sad. I would probably leave it alone to die. I know it will be tough and seems like torture, but nature has a way of taking care of itself. This guy may need to rest and then jump up and be fine (without the eye). You never know. I would go out and shoo it away, if possible so you don't have to "watch" but then try to not mess with it for a day or two and see what happens. If it does die and you or the kids have had contact with it, you may want to call the animal control folks and have it tested for rabies just to be on the safe side. Chipmunks are tiny and not terribly likely to get rabies...but still.

We tried meds after he did the stabbing with the pencil in a school in GA. At that time, he didn't understand what he had done and the ramifications (like I believe he does now!), but he did it all the same. GA is not a state that messes around with kids and we had a hard time with the school after this. They all but demanded he be put on meds. I did one of the time released ones and it didn't help at.all. I did another type (similar to ritalin, can't remember which) and it brought him down about 1/2 a notch...but never enough for me to continue putting such chemicals in his body. When we moved here, the school was much easier to deal with and they handled him much better. He still was in trouble a lot, but he was doing better. Then I pulled him out to homeschool. People around us will say that he has gotten better and they see a positive change in him. However, I now see ALL of the stuff that the school saw on a daily basis and I feel he has gotten worse rather than better. He is still smart and still does well in school. He is also still distracted and does lots of heming and hawing about school work.

TN falls in the easy category, IMO...as long as you register under a category IV school, which 99% of people who homeschool in TN do. Under a category IV school, you do not have to have a BA/BS to teach highschool, you do not have to report days of enrollment other than just say you did 180 days a year and break down how much per semester. There is no portfolio or check done by the state. No testing is required either. It costs us $45 a year (per child) to register with the Category IV school, but it is the best $90 (I have 2 kids) I spend each year!

I appreciate your insight and help Pamela. It has been a rough road and it seems to be getting rougher in many ways. I have a good friend/fellow homeschooling mom who has raised 3 kids and is now raising and adopted grandchild give me the advice to "pick one thing." It made so much sense. She said that, while I work on the one thing with him, I need to let the other stuff go (for the most part). This way, I am not trying to change everything all at once and he is not trying to please me on all levels when he is not sure what is expected of him. The biggest thing for me, right now, is determining how serious he was when he picked up the fork today to threaten his brother because he was "mad." That scares me a bit. He is a good kid and he has a good heart, but he is getting on that slippery slope, I am afraid. One poor choice in a situation like that and there is no turning back. This time it was a fork...next time, what will it be? Maybe I am taking it too far or putting too much into it, but NOT taking it seriously would be so much worse. Oh - and just for the record, something like this is NOT something I would spank for. I never would. Talk about anger! Today, his punishment was a long talk with mom, loss of privilage to go to yard sales with me (which he loves to do) and a day full of chores. He will work hard and think about his behavior. And, THERAPY. We really need to go see that therapist. Yesterday, I am afraid.

At this point, I have literally tried everything I could think of for discipline. My son also has ADHD, but in an odd way. He is a smart child and does very well in school. He thinks outside the box and was often labeled "gifted" in ps. However, he will talk and interrupt and then has a terrible time understanding WHY someone would be irritated by this. :confused: Spanking was not something we did early on (up to about age 5) and it was not something we did regularly either. Most of his punishments involve taking things away, losing privilages, etc. We tried rewarding good behavior as well. Most discipline methods work for him for a short time, and then we are back to square 1. He and I are a lot like oil and water too - and that doesn't help. Couple that with his internal issues and now his anger issues and we have a nice little mess. I am not sure if the spanking even plays a role in his overall behavior at this point. Just because we do spank doesn't mean that it has been our main source of discipline. KWIM?

I see your point here...but if I were to hit an adult, I would not be swatting him/her on the bottom. I suppose it is just a difference in opinion. I am not opposed to spanking...but my 10 year old is just getting too old for it. KWIM?

Let me just add that I have a 10 year old that was actually kicked out of daycare (multiple daycares) when he was 3 years old for behavior. When he was 5, he stabbed a child in the head with a pencil. He went to special ed for behavior in ps after hitting his teacher because she sent him to the office. He is a loud, mouthy, rude, and ANGRY 10 year old now. So let's hear that experience you have parenting a tough 5 year old! :glare: Not to be rude, but when I asked for parents of older kids...it wasn't because I have an easy to parent 10 year old that I feel the need to spank.

I am pretty sure I answered this previously. Let me go copy what I said there. and

I absolutely agree. We parent both of my kids the same way. The most clear line is that my older son was 3 when dh and I married and younger son belongs to dh. I fear that many of older son's issues come from deep seated issues from the divorce, his dad, and his own feelings of abandonment. My ex thinks I am nuts because older ds has been with dh and I in a stable environment for most of his life. It is likely he doesn't even remember his dad and I being married. However, this child has ANGER issues. Today, for instance, he got mad at younger ds because younger ds pushed past him to get a cup and older ds picked up a FORK in a threatening manner as if to say, "come on...keep talking." It baffles me. When we talked to older ds about it, he response was, "well, I wasn't going to hurt him...I was just mad." That is really NOT okay. Not in the least, not at all, not even kind of okay...sometimes. I was floored. He has reached a new level here and I am at a loss other than to invite a therapist into my life and ask for help. Like you said...it is humbling. That said, my younger son is parented the same way. He has been spanked just like older ds. He is not loved more, screamed at less, given more privilages, or anything of the sort. My older ds and I tend to be at odds more often, but if you go back to the way they were each raised, from a discipline standpoint, from day 1, it was the same. Therefore, I don't believe it was so much the way they were disciplined as it is their different (night and day) personalities as well as the trauma from older ds' past. Not pretty...but there it is.

I don't let the kids say hate in regards to other people. If they want to hate a video game, then sure. Stupid, to my kids, IS a curse word. LOL My almost 10 year old came home the other day from visiting his cousin and I asked him if the cousin cursed a lot (cousin is 13 and has been known to have a potty mouth). Older son said, "yeah, he says the s word constantly." I said, "Oh..sh*t?" and ds says, "NO mom...s-t-u-p-i-d." LOL I had to laugh. Fine by me though! Stupid is a terrible thing to say about anyone or anything, IMO. There are better words and calling something or someone "stupid" is just not okay here.

No, I really don't. That is actually why I posted this thread. My older ds is posing a lot of issues and spankings are getting less and less appropriate for him. I actually am seeking a therapist for him to help us deal with some of his issues in a different way now that he is older. I still don't believe that spanking is wrong or bad - I did it when he was younger and had good results. I also do it on occasion with my younger (though he is a totally different child and he responds much better to other forms of discipline) still. But, with older ds, we are just reaching a different place in his life - with a whole new group of behavior issues...

Typically, and maybe because we do not overuse the spanking, this has been a non-issue for us. In my older son's LIFE (10 years now), he has had about 15 spankings. This includes ones from his dad, myself, and his step-dad. We actually use a wooden paddle and we would NEVER remove clothing. (I find that degrading, personally, as my older son's dad's mother did this to him and even when he shared with me, I said, "ewwww!") They way it typically plays out in our home is that my older son will push the buttons and the limits to the max. After trying time outs, removing privileges, and often many other things, I will announce the "that's it! You are getting a spanking." If we are home, I make sure I am calm. Sometimes, this means going in my room, closing the door and deep breating for 10 minutes! If we are in public, this tends to stop the behavior in anticipation, I guess (and maybe in hopes I will forget by the time we get home). Once I have calmed or we have gotten home, I send the younger one to his room (no "watching") and call older to come with me. Generally, he will stand at the table in the school room. We discuss what he did, the chances he had to correct the behavior, why he was not able to do this, what I expect the next time we approach this type situation, and anything else I think is important to dealing with the situation. He is told the number of times he will be spanked and then it is done. He is not allowed to just storm off and slam his room door. Once the spanking is done, he sits in the school room for 5-10 minutes to calm down or just think. When I return, it is his turn to talk to ME about why it got to this point and why he had to be spanked. I guess, in our case, spanking is used as a last resort and the whole process involves more than just the spanking itself. If the behavior were to continue, I would really have to take it on a case by case basis, I guess. I mean, if he was causing harm, then he would be dealt with much more strictly (on a 2nd offense) than if he was, say, smarting off. I try to make sure the "punishment fits the crime" so to speak. I will also say that, the reason for this thread is because my older son is reaching an age where spankings are inappropriate. I would love some sage advice from moms with older kids who got through the teen years without spanking. We are actually seeing a therapist for help with his behavior. This is not an "easy" child by any stretch of the imagination. He is difficult, mouthy, loud, rude, you name it. He has his wonderful qualities too, don't get me wrong, but he is no cake walk where parenting is concerned. Perhaps that last paragraph should have/could have been part of the OP.

AMEN! I think the dynamic totally changes whn you add even just one more to the mix. My boys are great...ALONE. When they get together, they fight. Let ONE friend come into the picture and they fight over said friend. Who will sit with friend? Who does friend like better? OMG!

So you think God actually crucified his only son - watched him bleed and die on the cross, heard his cries "forgive them Father, for they know not what they do" - and that was it. That means we just have a freebie now to sin all we want as long as Jesus did the dying? I absolutely, 100% disagree with you. I believe that all sins will be punished by God. If I go out and have an affair, I may divorce my husband, marry the other man, but is my marriage going to be happy? Going to be easy? Am I going to live without guilt? Can I really walk into the house of God with my head held high? No! I can't. I can't because God, my Father, loves me and wants me to do what is right. He is not going to disown me or send me to Hell for this sin (because my faith in Jesus Christ saved me from this), but he is going to lay burden on my heart. Because I love Him and want to please Him, my hell will be a silent hell that I live inside myself each day. God would forgive me, but I wouldn't. And that is where I believe we are punished for our sins. You seem to separate God and us - as if my guilt and feelings could exist without Him. He made me - every part of me. Just as He can ease the grief of a widow and give her peace that passes all understanding, He can allow me to suffer grief for my wrongs. As parents, I think that we all strive to make sure our children feel sorrow for their wrongs (so they will correct them and learn from them). God is no different when he punishes us. And like I said before, sometimes I would really rather God give me a whack on the bottom than to punish me from the inside out. FYI - the example above is just an example. No, I am not cheating on my dh or running off to marry someone else. LOL

LOL. Sorry, but it makes me laugh. I am not going to keep defending my post about wanting to hear from parents who had been not spanking for a long time. You have young kids - okay, so tell me how you deal with a 10 year old. Tell me some of the challenges a 10 year old poses. Please, tell me that you effectively got through the age of 10 or 12 or whatever without using any means of physical punishment. Oh wait...you can't tell me that because you don't have kids that age. Okay, point made.

I never attacked mothers of younger kids. I said that I wanted to hear from moms of OLDER kids who have been parenting without spanking for a good number of years...and I even explained that by saying that there were a lot of things I thought I would never do...said I would never do and then I did. I also didn't spank my very young kids. It was not until they were over 4 or 5 that I even felt the need. So, again, no, I didn't care to hear from mom's whose oldest children were under 4. This was NOT because I think mothers of young children are bad or whatever...I just don't care to hear how to parent a 4 year old when I am dealing with 6 and 10 year olds. You have NO IDEA what challenges older kids bring until you have raised one (or two). So...I do not retract my statement. I would offer apologies, but it would be one of those generic "sorry that you were hurt by what I said" kind of things because I am surely not sorry for stating it and that is the way I still feel.